No Death Bed Confession...

[gaia]

Yep, Rashomon, we are on the same page about this.

While everyone is completely entitled to their own opinion about this case, it just seems kinda rediculous to think the Ramsey's didn't have anything to do with this death and coverup. I find anyone who believes in the intruder theory to be fooling themselves about human nature and the real facts of this case.

gaia

 

[BBB167893]

"Thinking about what Burke knew....he knew that his sister was awake when they got home. He might know about the pineapple since the tea glass was next to the bowl."

And his prints were on it!

"While everyone is completely entitled to their own opinion about this case, it just seems kinda rediculous to think the Ramsey's didn't have anything to do with this death and coverup. I find anyone who believes in the intruder theory to be fooling themselves about human nature and the real facts of this case."

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Peter Hamilton]

I'll second that

 

[twinkiesmom]

<<Since John Ramsey is far more close-mouthed that Patsy ever was, I doubt he will ever tell us what happended on that tragic night. >>

Any hope we'll get some truth from Aunt Pam?

 

[Jayelles]

I just read a book about the most amazing case - that of Cheryl Keaton who was murdered by hr husband Brad Cunningham.

The amazing thing was the Brad Cunningham evidently had the ability to convince people that he was not only normal - but a strong and capable human being. He convinced people that his ex-wives were all fruitcases who made life difficult for him. Only a small number of women knew the truth and they were terrified of him. Time and time again, he ensnared the affections of strong intelligent, professional women and persuaded them to fund his lifestyle and business deals. They completely believed in him until things turned sour for them.

He was described by psychologists as being a narcissist. Like Bundy, he fired his legal team and attempted to defend himself - believing that he would charm the jury. He accused his critics of everything from alchoholism to prostitution to personality disorders. He even accused some of his critics of being the "real perp". What was particularly fascinating was the fact that he exhibited a certain behaviour himself - but then proceeded to accuse other of it! A psychologist explained this but I don't begin to understand it. It's a genuine psychological disorder! Some sort of transference.

Amazing.

However - my point here is that Brad Cunningham had a life on two levels and only a small number of people saw both of them. He was able to convince everyone else that he was a great guy!

 

[gaia]

Jayelles, your post just brings up in a big way the unbelieveable but often everyday existence so many families share with the wives of that Brad Cunningham guy. My home life was not normal, but most people would have thought so because my mom spent oodles of money and lots of time presenting me to the world as a "perfect" child. Hmmm....that sounds a bit familiar, doesn't it? Patsy seems to have done the same kind of thing. I think my mom and Patsy are very different in many ways, but similar in others. My mom wanted the world to see one view - hers - and she went to great lengths to make sure of it. My dad was a philanderer and was gone a lot, yet my mom always took up for him, never even allowed anyone to question what he was doing, and tended to worship the ground he walked on! She avoided unpleasant truths at all costs. I think the Rams did the same thing...a lot. I think John found out the truth that morning and made a quick decision (the one Patsy KNEW he'd make) to cover for EVERYTHING. Outward appearances were the most important things - very sad. JonBenet is a victim of that kind of THINKING and PHILOSOPHY of LIFE!

gaia

 

[BBB167893]

"Any hope we'll get some truth from Aunt Pam?"

Not likely, after the Rams went to such lengths to shut her up!

"I just read a book about the most amazing case - that of Cheryl Keaton who was murdered by hr husband Brad Cunningham.

The amazing thing was the Brad Cunningham evidently had the ability to convince people that he was not only normal - but a strong and capable human being. He convinced people that his ex-wives were all fruitcases who made life difficult for him. Only a small number of women knew the truth and they were terrified of him. Time and time again, he ensnared the affections of strong intelligent, professional women and persuaded them to fund his lifestyle and business deals. They completely believed in him until things turned sour for them.

He was described by psychologists as being a narcissist. Like Bundy, he fired his legal team and attempted to defend himself - believing that he would charm the jury. He accused his critics of everything from alchoholism to prostitution to personality disorders. He even accused some of his critics of being the "real perp". What was particularly fascinating was the fact that he exhibited a certain behaviour himself - but then proceeded to accuse other of it! A psychologist explained this but I don't begin to understand it. It's a genuine psychological disorder! Some sort of transference.

Amazing.

However - my point here is that Brad Cunningham had a life on two levels and only a small number of people saw both of them. He was able to convince everyone else that he was a great guy!"

Jayelles, you'd be shocked at how often that happens. Here in America, every time they do a story about a serial killer or a child murderer, they bring on their neighbors, who always say what a great person they were! They did it with Susan Smith, they did it with a slew of infamous killers.

 

[tumble]

Jayelles, you'd be shocked at how often that happens. Here in America, every time they do a story about a serial killer or a child murderer, they bring on their neighbors, who always say what a great person they were! They did it with Susan Smith, they did it with a slew of infamous killers.

Yes, the killers that act out their instincs on their neightbours doesn't give the journalist much left o work on.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think that's why they do it!

It could be worse. Ever heard of Andrei Chikatilo?

 

[tumble]

I've heard of him. Not my favourite neightbour. So I would move and give the guy some space

 

[aussiesheila]

JMPO, but given the narcissist that she was, Patsy would never have allowed any pedophiles to touch her precious possession JonBenet, and never have covered up for them. Impossible.

I don't think that JonBenet being Patsy's 'precious possession' would have prevented the narcissistic Patsy from turning a blind eye to the pedophiles touching JonBenet. How would doing that negatively impact on Patsy? That is the question you have to ask when discussing a narcissist. A narcissist is so focussed on his or herself, that how anyone else feels is totally immaterial. I don't think Patsy would worried so much about how any sexual abuse would traumatise JonBenet mentally, she would have worried more if it had affected her external appearance, which was of great importance to Patsy. JonBenet may have been Patsy's so called 'precious possession' but a 'precious possession' is only precious to a narcissist because of the benefits the narcissist receives from that person.

Nor, thinking about it, do I believe Patsy would ever have covered up for John if she had caught him molesting JB, or found out he had killed her.

I don't either.

I don't even believe she would have covered up for Burke if he had hurt JB to the point of killing her. I think in that case Patsy would have suffered a total nervous breakdown, unable to think out any staging scenarios.

Quite so.

I'm convinced that the only person a true narcissist like Patsy would ever have covered up for was herself.

Which she did, in writing the ransom note.

 

[aussiesheila]

Sure Burke's statement that JB was awake contradicts what John and Patsy said, but again this does not mean that Burke knew what happened on that night. If he were covering up for his parents, he would have recanted his statement.

Sorry to pick on you rashomon, there are others besides you who claim that Burke said JonBenet was awake when they got home that night, but do you know where that story originated? Has any member of the public actually seen Burke's statement?

 

[aussiesheila]

I just read a book about the most amazing case - that of Cheryl Keaton who was murdered by hr husband Brad Cunningham.

The amazing thing was the Brad Cunningham evidently had the ability to convince people that he was not only normal - but a strong and capable human being. He convinced people that his ex-wives were all fruitcases who made life difficult for him. Only a small number of women knew the truth and they were terrified of him. Time and time again, he ensnared the affections of strong intelligent, professional women and persuaded them to fund his lifestyle and business deals. They completely believed in him until things turned sour for them.

He was described by psychologists as being a narcissist. Like Bundy, he fired his legal team and attempted to defend himself - believing that he would charm the jury. He accused his critics of everything from alchoholism to prostitution to personality disorders. He even accused some of his critics of being the "real perp". What was particularly fascinating was the fact that he exhibited a certain behaviour himself - but then proceeded to accuse other of it! A psychologist explained this but I don't begin to understand it. It's a genuine psychological disorder! Some sort of transference.

Amazing.

However - my point here is that Brad Cunningham had a life on two levels and only a small number of people saw both of them. He was able to convince everyone else that he was a great guy!

This is totally off topic, but my personal experience of this kind of person is that they have the most amazing ability to completely fool a lot of people with the webs of lies they weave. They are very, very toxic people.

 

[BBB167893]

"don't think that JonBenet being Patsy's 'precious possession' would have prevented the narcissistic Patsy from turning a blind eye to the pedophiles touching JonBenet. How would doing that negatively impact on Patsy? That is the question you have to ask when discussing a narcissist. A narcissist is so focussed on his or herself, that how anyone else feels is totally immaterial. I don't think Patsy would worried so much about how any sexual abuse would traumatise JonBenet mentally, she would have worried more if it had affected her external appearance, which was of great importance to Patsy. JonBenet may have been Patsy's so called 'precious possession' but a 'precious possession' is only precious to a narcissist because of the benefits the narcissist receives from that person."

I think that the assertion is that Patsy needed JB to be unsullied, aussiesheila.

That's all.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Burke Ramsey said that JonBenet walked in the house and up the spiral staircase Christmas night ahead of their mother in an interview in June of 1998.

This interview was held over two consecutive days in Atlanta, and was conducted by Detective Schuller while Deputy DA Pete Hofstrom and Ramsey lawyer Jim Jenkins watched from another room. Videotapes were sent back to BPD for review.

I'm not sure if this is available to the public. I got this info from ST's book, hb, page 316.

 

[Eagle1]

I believe assigning your own guilts to some other person is called Projection, and that it's one of the top ten Psychological Defense Mechanisms. Someone correct me if it's not on the list.

Don't all sociopaths do it? They become skilled liars, can get you fired and themselves promotoed, because, according to one article, they're always failures at something or other, turn to making others failures.

A little example, just last night a woman's little girl didn't make the school soccer team but her neighbor's daughter was tops on the team, so she asked the winner's mom to have her quit the team unless her own daughter would be accepted by the coach. When her demands were refused, she told anonymously that the good soccer player had been seen using drugs, and when she was off the team awaiting testing, re-offered her own daughter to take her place. The coach was firm about his decisions, so she told that he was having an affair with one of the team's mothers, etc., etc., etc. Does the description also fit the narcissist?

 

[Eagle1]

If Patsy really said, "Some things in life you can never take back," just before she died, did she probably mean to clear the slate for her whole life?

 

[Amity]

I've wondered this for a long time and since the subject has been talked about on this post so much, I wanted to throw it out there.

Regarding Burke speaking out eventually. Will he speak out or will he act out...revealing more truth by acting out than he would if he were to continue to deny knowing anything more than he's already admitted to.

For example:
Oj was brought up. OJ's kids...we've read/heard of his daughter, Sydney, being involved in drugs, violent temper etc. Acting out? Normal teen/young adult actions?

But a little deeper, what about Cary Stayner...the man guilty of the Yosemite/Sund murders. His brother, Steven, was kidnapped and held for over 8 years. The emotional upheaval that went through the Stayner family must have done some major emotional damage, the attention spent on the missing child, the attention on the child returned....had to have left Cary with some major issues, no?
Every article I've ever read about the Stayner family reports of Cary changing drastically during that first year his brother went missing and most family and friends of the Stayners say it was the kidnapping of brother Steven (who years after he returned died in a motorcycle accident.... or was it an accident?) that started the downhill spiral of Cary. In a sense, Cary was always on the back burner.
Burke, even before his sister was killed, seemed to me at least, to have always been on the back burner. More so after the murder.

Being so young, having a sibling murdered, and in your own home which is supposed to be safe, a sanctuary, has got to leave Burke with some issues, I don't care how much therapy he's had up to this point JMO. Will Burke talk or will Burke act out....Sad and ashamed to admit, I hope I'm still on this earth long enough to see either one.

Am

 

[BBB167893]

"If Patsy really said, "Some things in life you can never take back," just before she died, did she probably mean to clear the slate for her whole life?"

Who knows?

 

[narlacat]

Who said Patsy said that?