NORTH KOREA - Otto Warmbier, 22, UV student, released from North Korea, June 2017, Deceased

[Pamela_Brewer]

IMO the NG tube we see may not have been to feed him. He very well may have had a small bowel obstruction, due to his persistent vegetative state.
The NG tube would have been used for decompression if that were the case.
I can't imagine that he was fed for 15 months by an NG tube alone. I would think a Jejunostomy PEG would have been inserted.
From the reports we have read about OW since his return, I seriously wonder about an obstruction.

Here are 2 articles about
PVS and feeding as well as obstructions.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199903253401219

http://www3.us.elsevierhealth.com/gastro/policy/v108n4p1280.html

It hasnt been reported that OW had a fever or vomiting, most likely due to HIPAA regulations. I believe it's very likely that the ME will find out that he died of sepsis, bowel rupture or both.
All MOO

MOO

 

[Elainera]

Thanks for that. Yeah I think it's clear they didn't mean too either. Otherwise why not sentence him to death? And why try to keep him alive? Besides, they arrest these people for political purposes. Not to kill them but to use them
to bargain.

I did wonder about the possibility that he might have tried to take his life after being sentenced. But your explanation of the hyoid bone bone seems to eliminate hanging.

Is it possible they beat or tortured him in some way. Maybe hit him hard in the head? Too hard on accident? And then neglected his medical care?

Regardless, no matter what happened, it was murder IMO. They falsely arrested an innocent young man as a political pawn and he is now dead after going into that country as a very healthy young man.

bbm Since he had no injuries to bones or skull I speculate that he was held under water for too long. They might have tried to get information out of him but they overdid it.

 

[popsicle]

Blake McCoy‏Verified account @BlakeNBC 5m5 minutes agoMore
Body of Otto Warmbier has been examined by Hamilton County Coroner's Office. No autopsy, per family's request. No immediate cause of death.

 

[Ambitioned]

When Terri Schiavo's autopsy report came out, it stated that she "suffered severe, irreversible brain damage that left that organ discolored and scarred, shriveled to half its normal size, and damaged in nearly all its regions, including the one responsible for vision, according to an autopsy report released yesterday."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/15/AR2005061500512.html

I think it's a shame no autopsy will be performed on OW because it would certainly shed some light on his abuses. However I can understand the family's wishes.

The whole thing is just absolutely heartbreaking. :crying:

 

[popsicle]

When Terri Schiavo's autopsy report came out, it stated that she "suffered severe, irreversible brain damage that left that organ discolored and scarred, shriveled to half its normal size, and damaged in nearly all its regions, including the one responsible for vision, according to an autopsy report released yesterday."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/15/AR2005061500512.html

I think it's a shame no autopsy will be performed on OW because it would certainly shed some light on his abuses. However I can understand the family's wishes.

The whole thing is just absolutely heartbreaking. :crying:

I have to think there is a reason.

 

[dotr]

http://www.cp24.com/news/public-fun...tto-warmbier-freed-from-north-korea-1.3468369

[h=1]Public funeral planned for U.S. student Otto Warmbier freed from North Korea[/h]

CINCINNATI - A public funeral service is planned Thursday at a high school attended by a 22-year-old college student who was held for nearly a year and a half in North Korea and died shortly after he was sent home to Ohio in a coma.

Meanwhile, a spokesman for Hamilton County Coroner Dr. Lakshmi Sammarco said the office accepted the case of Otto Warmbier, who died Monday in a Cincinnati hospital. Justin Weber told The Associated Press that a news conference is expected later to provide more information.

The funeral will be held at 9 a.m. at Wyoming High School, where Warmbier was an athlete and salutatorian of his 2013 class.

“All those that wish to join his family in celebrating his life are cordially invited,” said the Spring Grove Cemetery and Arboretum

 

[Ambitioned]

I have to think there is a reason.

I'm not sure why people are believing what NK says. (Not you but on other forums) where they defend NK. NK lies constantly, especially about their missile programs. Many of us Americans are not going to forget this.

The funeral will be held at 9 a.m. at Wyoming High School, where Warmbier was an athlete and salutatorian of his 2013 class.

“All those that wish to join his family in celebrating his life are cordially invited,” said the Spring Grove Cemetery and Arboretum

I sure wish I could go pay my respects. :tears:

 

[Trino]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ts-plight-of-foreigners-jailed-in-north-korea

I have much empathy for the family, but why would anyone wish to go to N Korea, a country where the US has no embassy or ambassador. Why would we not have had a ban to N Korea since we are legally still at war with N Korea? We had only an armistice in 1953, not a treaty, and in 2013 that was nullified by N Korea. If you compare this with Cuba, well there is no comparison.

 

[dotr]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40350046

The coroner's office in Cincinnati, Ohio, said in a statement: "No conclusions about the cause and manner of Mr Warmbier's death have been drawn at this time as there are additional medical records and imaging to review and people to interview.

Timeline of events

• 30 Dec 2015 - Mr Warmbier travels from Beijing to Pyongyang with a tour group
• 2 Jan 2016 - He is arrested at Pyongyang International Airport as he tries to leave the country. Later that month, North Korea announces it is holding Mr Warmbier for a "hostile act"
• 16 March 2016 - Mr Warmbier goes on trial in Pyongyang where he confesses to stealing a propaganda poster, and is sentenced to 15 years of hard labour. North Korea says he slipped into a coma shortly after his trial
• Early June 2017 - US officials and Mr Warmbier's parents are told about his condition
• 13 June 2017 - He is released from North Korea and medically evacuated to the US. Doctors say he has suffered a severe brain injury
• 19 June 2017 - Mr Warmbier dies

 

[dotr]

I have much empathy for the family, but why would anyone wish to go to N Korea, a country where the US has no embassy or ambassador. Why would we not have had a ban to N Korea since we are legally still at war with N Korea? We had only an armistice in 1953, not a treaty, and in 2013 that was nullified by N Korea. If you compare this with Cuba, well there is no comparison.

Lured by ads like this perhaps? imo, speculation.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/20/15836402/otto-warmbier-north-korea-travel-ban

Patriotism, pyrotechnics and a mass party that will knock your socks off!

Don’t miss out on one of the biggest celebrations in the North Korean calendar, as well as the second annual Taedonggang Beer Festival this July.
We’ll drink to that!

Victory Day Tour North Korea - Travel North Korea - YPT

Join us for the celebrations marking Victory Day in the DPRK. Summer is a great time to be in North Korea.
youngpioneertours.com

For $1,052, the Young Pioneer Tours travel agency promises a summer adventure through the hot spas and water parks of North Korea. For $2,060, Koryo Group offers “the ultimate experience” of touring Pyongyang during Victory Day, the festival where North Koreans commemorate the end of the Korean War. And for $869, Lupine Tours presents tourists with a glimpse into New Year’s celebrations behind “the world's last remaining ‘iron curtain.’”

These international tour agencies tend to market trips to North Korea as a once-in-a-lifetime chance to visit a country shrouded in mystery. They describe the country in exotic, almost mythological terms and provide little context on its political situation.

Lupine Tours, for example, introduces the country as “The Secret State. The Hermit Kingdom. The Democratic People’s Republic Of Korea,” but doesn’t provide any other information on the nature of the North Korean government or its geopolitical relationships with other countries.

As recently as June 19, Young Pioneer Tours wrote on its website that traveling to North Korea is “Extremely safe!”

“Tourism is very welcomed in North Korea, thus tourists are cherished and well taken care of,” the site said.

 

[Ambitioned]

I have much empathy for the family, but why would anyone wish to go to N Korea, a country where the US has no embassy or ambassador. Why would we not have had a ban to N Korea since we are legally still at war with N Korea? We had only an armistice in 1953, not a treaty, and in 2013 that was nullified by N Korea. If you compare this with Cuba, well there is no comparison.

Well he was young and thought it'd be a good idea. Before NK's court he said he first began considering a trip to North Korea after colleagues recommended a visit to him based on the country's beauty, architecture, and his interest in communist nations.

I agree with what you're saying though. There were two missionaries at our church who thought about going but decided against it.

Young Pioneer Tours is no longer participating.

The devastating loss of Otto Warmbier's life has led us to reconsider our position on accepting American tourists. There had not been any previous detainment in North Korea that has ended with such tragic finality and we have been struggling to process the result. Now, the assessment of risk for Americans visiting North Korea has become too high.

The way his detention was handled was appalling, and a tragedy like this must never be repeated. Despite constant requests, we were denied any opportunity to meet him or anyone in contact with him in Pyongyang, only receiving assurances that he was fine. There has still been almost no information disclosed about his period in detention. Considering these facts and this tragic outcome we will no longer be organising tours for US citizens to North Korea.

​http://www.youngpioneertours.com/blog/statement-otto-warmbier

ETA: Sorry, I posted before realizing dotr did also!

 

[gregjrichards]

"His parents, Otto and Cindy, who announced his death on Monday night, said their son had been subjected to 'awful torturous mistreatment'.

They have also accused the travel company, Young Pioneer Tours, of 'luring young Americans' to the rogue state.

'He was trying to leave the country and he was taken hostage.

'They advertise it as the safest tour ever. But they provide fodder for the North Koreans. They took him hostage. And the outcome is self-evident,' said Mr Warmbier.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-North-Korea-Otto-Warmbier.html#ixzz4kaxKJUZH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Meryl12]

"His parents, Otto and Cindy, who announced his death on Monday night, said their son had been subjected to 'awful torturous mistreatment'.

They have also accused the travel company, Young Pioneer Tours, of 'luring young Americans' to the rogue state.

'He was trying to leave the country and he was taken hostage.

'They advertise it as the safest tour ever. But they provide fodder for the North Koreans. They took him hostage. And the outcome is self-evident,' said Mr Warmbier.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-North-Korea-Otto-Warmbier.html#ixzz4kaxKJUZH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Thanks for this article Gregrichards it tells us we are right in what we were thinking about NK and the dangers of visiting such a dangerous place. I thought it was absurd when it said "NK relied heavily on foreign tourism".......they torture and kill tourists.
They torture and kill their own citizens as well. This has received so much publicity that I think most tourism will stop and NK will sink into a hole for a long time. I don't know what it will take for them to change.....I doubt NK will change for a very long time.

 

[ontheclock]

There are places we should not enter. Pay attention to travel warnings and alerts.

RIP Otto, we recognize what happened.

 

[dotr]

Bet Otto turned some heads, imo.

His friends on the trip say he never removed the poster from the hotel and say he was in bed on the night of the alleged theft with an early flight to catch the next day and no reason to risk his freedom.

'He was in bed the night in question, and the next morning we had an early departure from the airport. He was in a good mood that morning.

'The poster story didn't arise until a few weeks later. The footage North Korea released was grainy, and only showed someone taking it down, and not even leaving with it,' said one member of the group who wished to remain anonymous.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Otto-Warmbier-North-Korea.html#ixzz4kbV1z2vI
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

They remembered Otto by his 'laugh, his infectious smile, and his ability to love everyone.'

Towering over local women, Otto smiles again for another photograph on a snowy day during the trip in 2016

​

 

[MIKAYOYO]

I personally wouldn't want to visit NK. I don't even want to visit London or Paris now. But my awesome local sports radio station had a guy in about a marathon he ran in NK. This was at least a year ago. He said it was weird but really pretty country. I don't see the allure but I guess others do. I'm not gonna blame Otto for visiting nor will I blame his parents or the tour group. Moo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

I thought autopsy was mandatory in a case of foul play. Even if it is against their faith, an investigator could order one.
This decision the parents made makes me believe that they know his cause of death. Perhaps blood/urine cultures/toxicology, imaging studies, EKG, etc have painted enough if a picture that an autopsy truly isn't needed.
My concern is, what if he had some sort of genetic heart abnormalitiy, or something that the family would benefit from by having such knowledge.
IMO they know enough and are willing to let it be.
MOO

MOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Jun 21 2017, 8:47 am ET

Otto Warmbier’s Family Objects to Autopsy of Former North Korean Prisoner

by Erik Ortiz

Whatever caused American college student Otto Warmbier's health to erode during his imprisonment in North Korea may remain a mystery — at least for a while longer.

Warmbier's family declined to have an autopsy performed on him, the Hamilton County Coroner's Office in Ohio said Tuesday, deciding that only an "external examination" would be performed. It was not immediately clear why the family made its decision.

"No conclusions about the cause and manner of Mr. Warmbier's death have been drawn at this time as there are additional medical records and imaging to review and people to interview," the medical examiner's office said...

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-k...-autopsy-former-north-korean-prisoner-n775001

 

[Hatfield]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40350046

JMO
The one video I saw of him on the news being man handled was very rough. Sorry no link as I cant remember what news I was watching.

I think what happened to him was right after the trial and I think some guards beat him about the head and probably with a blundt object. They kept him over a year after he went into coma which is plenty long enough to heal any visual injuries to the head.

Reading this part gives the timeline of when they reported he went into coma. I think what happened is right after the trial and he was declared guilty then some guards probably beat him because in their mind he was guilty and so they treated him badly. Or electric shocks or something like others said with water boarding or something. They have evil ways to not leave much visual scars.

Then when they realized they went too far they were hoping he would heal up and get better which never happened. His visual injuries if any probably healed within that year.

We have news video evidence that I saw of them man handling him which appeared to be even after his bad health state and if they were doing that then just imagine how they treated him right after they declared him guilty.

The dictators in that country is unbelievable to me. I dont get it. They seem to gain nothing but bravado from their own people and the rest of the world just ignores them. They would be much better off if they get with the program and be a normal country with treating their own people right and quit threatening to blow up everyone with nukes. I just dont get it because they seem to gain nothing from their current methods. Nothing but trouble for themselves.

This is from your timeline which shows he had about a year to heal if he was beat or tortured.

"16 March 2016 - Mr Warmbier goes on trial in Pyongyang where he confesses to stealing a propaganda poster, and is sentenced to 15 years of hard labour. North Korea says he slipped into a coma shortly after his trial"

 

[Hatfield]

I thought autopsy was mandatory in a case of foul play. Even if it is against their faith, an investigator could order one.
This decision the parents made makes me believe that they know his cause of death. Perhaps blood/urine cultures/toxicology, imaging studies, EKG, etc have painted enough if a picture that an autopsy truly isn't needed.
My concern is, what if he had some sort of genetic heart abnormalitiy, or something that the family would benefit from by having such knowledge.
IMO they know enough and are willing to let it be.
MOO

MOO

I thought that too that investigators could force an autopsy and I think they should.

An autopsy is the best way to be sure of what happened to him. I dont trust any other diagnosis because medical records can be forged and any blood tests could have been faked. They could have even pumped things in his blood to make it appear he had some deadly disease to coverup what really happened.

I dont understand why no autopsy.

My only guess is maybe some money was given to the family by NC officials or even US officials to quiet this down and make this go away.