NORTH KOREA - Otto Warmbier, 22, UV student, released from North Korea, June 2017, Deceased

[dotr]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mbier-fate-north-korea-tour-company-pyongyang

[h=1]I was so lucky to avoid Otto Warmbier’s fate in North Korea[/h] Alex Hoban I travelled with the same gung ho, alcohol-fuelled tour company that Warmbier did. His death made me realise how naive we were about Pyongyang

T

he shock of Warmbier’s initial arrest and his wretched, seemingly forced, confession of guilt; his disappearance and reappearance in a coma over a year later, followed by his almost immediate death; the rattling confusion of there being no information on how or why any of this happened – all this triggered memories in me of events that could have plausibly escalated in the same deadly way for me.

The time our bus was held up and our belongings were searched because the North Koreans thought someone might have stolen a towel. No big deal, right? The time I agreed to a North Korean girl’s request to take a love letter back to London (to give to someone I knew who had also visited North Korea), warning me not to let it be found at the border

A year after that first trip, still feeling naively invincible and hungry for more adventure, I separately returned to the north of the country with two friends and ended up getting held hostage for 24 hours, for my friends’ crime of wanting to go to the Chinese consulate to update their visas. Spying an opportunity to mess with us, the North Koreans in charge confiscated our passports and refused us contact with the British embassy as part of a poorly thought-out extortion attempt.

Luckily our handlers were either bad gangsters and not experienced in the art of crime or, being at the isolated tip of the country, were not sufficiently plugged into the state’s Kafkaesque matrix of dependency-led mafiadom to let our situation escalate into who knows what. They quickly gave up harassing us when they ran out of a pretty small set of strategic moves and booted us back into China having taken little more than the €300 in cash we had between us, and my friend’s London Transport Museum wristwatch – a small price to pay for freedom.

 

[CircuitGuy]

Seriously. This kid was murdered. gitmo prisoners were there for crimes they committed. (modsnip)

Yeah, Warmbier died in a secret prison at the hands of foreigners without even getting a fair trial.

Will we ever see a cultural interchange program where Korean officials and attorneys visit Gitmo and CIA black sites to learn about US jurisprudence in a free society?

 

[CircuitGuy]

My understanding is North Korea's in prison are typically abused and often die from the conditions. So if they gave him the treatment of a typical prisoner, it's possible he could come to this end.

I really do not understand how North Korea works. They have this bizarre personality cult of their leader. They have strict penalties for even owning a TV capable of receiving South Korean style TV signals. To run a country like that in a command fashion, with the gov't making decisions that private businesses make elsewhere, must require a huge bureaucracy. Their official story is foreigners, esp the US, are trying to undermine them at every turn, even by doing innocuous things like stealing a sign. Might the bureaucracy have no way to say, "I know we carry on about this, but we all no it's baloney. We should not imprison an American in harsh conditions, potentially creating an international incident, for nothing."

Maybe the people at the top ordered they railroad some American so they could have a hostage, but if that were the case they should have ordered he be treated well and kept alive. That would require a fair number of people in the bureaucracy to know that their justice system is a sham and their gov't is acting like bandits. Maybe the leadership was afraid if that many people realized it, it would undermine their propaganda narrative about being demi-gods standing up to imperialism and creating a workers' paradise.

I'm unclear if most people being that insane narrative or if most people there know it's bogus. If they know it's bogus, do they have anything like the Nazis' "if only the Fuhrer knew", which allowed people say aloud if things were being mismanaged by adding the caveat that if Hitler knew about it he would solve it immediately. Do they have any way to see someone stealing a sign and have the hotel manager say to the cops, "I know the official line is this is America undermining us and only our great leader is saving us, but we know that's baloney, so let's just focus on dealing with theft, fights, and parties getting out of hand, and if anyone asks of course it's all about our amazingly wonderful leader or whatever."

 

[neesaki]

I do wonder if someone who worked at the hotel set him up.

 

[CircuitGuy]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mbier-fate-north-korea-tour-company-pyongyang

This article paints a picture of a a "Kafkaesque dependency-led mafiadom", where low-level people know how to use their position to extort money out of people and how to stay out of the gov'ts way. A foreigner going there is taking a huge risk of falling into the corrupt machinery.

Luckily our handlers were either bad gangsters and not experienced in the art of crime or, being at the isolated tip of the country, were not sufficiently plugged into the state’s Kafkaesque matrix of dependency-led mafiadom to let our situation escalate into who knows what. They quickly gave up harassing us when they ran out of a pretty small set of strategic moves and booted us back into China having taken little more than the €300 in cash we had between us, and my friend’s London Transport Museum wristwatch – a small price to pay for freedom.

There may not be a simple explanation for what happened to why Warmbier was convicted and killed. It sounds like a world of apparatchicks who are desperate, scared, and confused.

 

[Hatfield]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...mbier-fate-north-korea-tour-company-pyongyang

T

Wow. Its stories like this that give me no desire to travel to certain countries.

Ive seen too many episodes of "Locked Up Abroad" and read too many stories like this where I have lost all desire to travel abroad.
Not that I have the money to travel anyway. LOL

I know my opinion on it limits me on seeing other great things in the world but its the price im willing to pay to avoid getting into a dicey situation or worse.

I also know its probably very rare that things would go terribly wrong like this but Murphys Law tends to follow me around. LOL

Thanks for sharing that story. Scary stuff.

 

[PrairieWind]

I've been to South Korea a couple of times and greatly enjoyed it. Its beautiful and the people are nice. I'm sure North Korea is physically a beautiful country as far as the mountains and landscape are concerned. But how could anyone enjoy a trip there knowing what is happening to the people there?

As for the autopsy, I also find it a little strange that it wasn't ordered. Laws vary from state to state, and it may be that the coroner actually could have ordered it, but simply chose not to. Otto's physicians in Ohio would have conducted blood tests and brains scans when he arrived so it could be that an actual autopsy wouldn't have revealed anything additional. I'm sure the family is devastated and just wants to lay their son to rest as is. I find this story of what happened to Otto so sad. But we should remember this is just a tiny tiny glimpse as to the horrors that go on inside North Korea every day.

 

[gregjrichards]

"Otto Warmbier's college girlfriend has mourned her soulmate who she said helped helped her 'become a better human being'.

Alex Vagonis spoke lovingly about him at a candlelight vigil Tuesday night at the University of Virginia campus that was attended by other students and university faculty.

Vagonis, who was the Ohio man's girlfriend at the time of his detention in North Korea in January 2016, said the couple first met at a party at his apartment.
She said she noticed his 'insane' tie collection, which he became known for on campus.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...friend-speaks-UVA-memorial.html#ixzz4kg6daurl

 

[michmi]

I'm disappointed no autopsy is going to be done. Having heard that they have used prisoners for medical experiments, I've wondered whether they operated on or injected something into his brain after his trial that destroyed it. Unless his head was shaved and they could examine every bit of his scalp, I don't think they'd be able to tell if the hole was small.

 

[neesaki]

I think NK sent Otto back this way purposely, it was a taunt. There are no bounds to their cruelty. There's no excuse and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. :furious: :stormingmad:

 

[dotr]

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens...risoner-after-otto-warmbier-s-death-1.4171829

June 21, 2017
'Now is the time to speak up,' says former North Korean prisoner after Otto Warmbier's death

Kenneth Bae was heartbroken when learned that a U.S. college student had died less than a week after he was released from a North Korean prison camp.

"It's been just devastating to see what happened with Otto Warmbier," Bae, who was the longest held U.S. prisoner in North Korea since the Korean War, told As It Happens host Carol Off.

"I was very upset and not able to, you know, do anything else other than thinking about his family, and I was mourning with the family at this time."

Bae, a Korean-American missionary, was detained in 2012 and held for 735 days on charges of planning to overthrow the North Korean government.

• THE CURRENT: I was known as Prisoner 103': Kenneth Bae

Sentenced to 15 years of hard labour, Bae was forced to work 10-hour days, six days a week. He was intermittently hospitalized during due to malnutrition and back problems.

"I was losing weight rapidly because the food that I was eating was not enough to keep up," he said.

"I'm sure he was told what to say at the press conference," Bae said
It's a spectacle he knows well. Bae had his own press conference in 2014, shortly after U.S. basketball player Dennis Rodman — a repeat visitor to North Korea — called for his release.

He said he was put in front of cameras and ordered to confess, apologize, beg for mercy and ask the U.S. to intervene. They even had him rehearse his script several times before the actual event.

"The only thing I could do at the time was agree to whatever the charges they were saying at the time," Bae said.

"It wasn't physical torture, but they do have some few remarks indicating that if you don't co-operate, then we'll have to do some other way to get your confession."

 

[Elainera]

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens...risoner-after-otto-warmbier-s-death-1.4171829

It's interesting that he was told to ask the US to intervene at his press conference. Is NK hoping that the US will do something rash that gives them an excuse to start a war?

I'm glad he got out and is ok, at least physically it seems, now.

 

[dotr]

From when Otto was still captive, a warning or provocation perhaps?
http://dailycaller.com/2017/05/12/t...r-the-four-americans-detained-in-north-korea/

Things Aren’t Looking Good For The Four Americans Detained In North Korea

Ryan Pickrell

05/12/2017

Recent Americans detained are being interrogated by relevant legal authorities for criminal acts against” the regime, North Korea’s state-run Korean Central News Agency revealed Thursday. “It is an exercise of the legitimate right of a sovereign state to deal with the criminals according to its law.” “DPRK will detect and frustrate every anti-DPRK plot of the dishonest hostile elements and ruthlessly punish the criminals and thus reliably defend its state and social system,” the report added.

In recent weeks, North Korea arrested Tony Kim and Kim Hak-song for “hostile acts” against the North Korean regime. Both men taught North Korean students at Pyongyang University of Science and Technology. The North is also holding Otto Frederick Warmbier, a student at the University of Virginia, and Kim Dong-chul, a businessman.

]North Korea is currently hung up on a narrative that the CIA and South Korea’s National Intelligence Service (NIS) hired a North Korean lumberjack working in Russia to detonate a biochemical weapon during a military parade to end the life of the young North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un.

Almost every day for the past week has been filled with state-run articles out of North Korea on its determination to hunt down the plotters who tried to take out the “supreme leader.”

rbbm.

 

[Ambitioned]

I think NK sent Otto back this way purposely, it was a taunt. There are no bounds to their cruelty. There's no excuse and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. :furious: :stormingmad:

ITA

 

[Elainera]

From when Otto was still captive, a warning or provocation perhaps?
http://dailycaller.com/2017/05/12/t...r-the-four-americans-detained-in-north-korea/




rbbm.

Looks like mass-paranoia. The whole leadership seems mentally ill to me.

 

[dotr]

CNN

The Warmbier family has not said why they objected to an autopsy, but Wecht said some families cite religious reasons, overwhelming grief or a desire to more quickly move on.

"It's not that I'm insensitive or indifferent to family objections," Wecht said. "When I was coroner, for 20 years, of Allegheny County (Pennsylvania), if I could bend, I bent. Other times, you cannot bend. This is a case of unknown etiology, and the only way to ascertain what may have gone wrong would be to do an autopsy."

Despite the tragic circumstances, CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta said the case was very interesting from a medical perspective.
"For 15 months or so, (Warmbier) had a devastating neurological injury but was kept alive," said Gupta, who is also a member of the American College of Forensic Examiners and a practicing neurosurgeon. "One of a few things likely happened here -- and we may never know, especially if there's no autopsy.

"One thing to keep in mind is that he did just have a long flight from North Korea to the US," he said. "Even healthy people can develop deep-vein thrombosis, or DVT. With someone who is not moving, the risk is even greater. The risk of a blood clot in the lungs is also a possibility, especially given how sudden this was."

rbbm.

 

[Meryl12]

I thought autopsy was mandatory in a case of foul play. Even if it is against their faith, an investigator could order one.
This decision the parents made makes me believe that they know his cause of death. Perhaps blood/urine cultures/toxicology, imaging studies, EKG, etc have painted enough if a picture that an autopsy truly isn't needed.
My concern is, what if he had some sort of genetic heart abnormalitiy, or something that the family would benefit from by having such knowledge.
IMO they know enough and are willing to let it be.
MOO

MOO

I totally agree with this comment.
Otherwise his grief stricken parents would want lots of answers as to what happened to their son. They must already have all the answers they need and there is no need for an autopsy, all this means is they we - the public will never get to know. It must have been something really horrible and they want to protect his dignity and his memory. The coroner must also be aware of 'the cause' of his death and can see there is no need to 'demand' an autopsy.
MOO

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Pamela & Meryl - I think you're right, The family has probably heard enough heartbreaking details. I'm so sorry Otto.

 

[K_Z]

Another reason to avoid an autopsy is that there will be no autopsy report. No AR to be subject to FOIA request if it's attached to official reports about his capture and captivity. By avoiding an autopsy, the family can retain more control over his medical records, and protect his privacy.

As I said upthread, I think the family may have made a difficult decision to let him go, after getting all the results of his evaluation, by stopping enteral hydration/ feeds. No proof of that, just my gut feeling. He may have arrived with something like a bad pneumonia, also, as an example. If they declined to incubate hm and mechanically ventilate, that could have also hastened his demise. I don't think the family wants to be scrutinized or criticized about their decisions for him, and I completely understand and support that. The first interview the dad did, I remember hearing that there was to be no discussion of OW's prognosis, or questions asked. I also think the parents are not terribly shocked that he has passed away so quickly after returning. I think they know enough about his condition, and the direct cause of his death. It may be that there is not much else an autopsy could tell them (or us), beyond the facts of the testing he had on arrival back in Ohio.

Presumably, the coroner isn't demanding that his case be a mandatory exam under law. Sounds very much like the coroner and the family are in agreement, IMO.

 

[Hatfield]

Another reason to avoid an autopsy is that there will be no autopsy report. No AR to be subject to FOIA request if it's attached to official reports about his capture and captivity. By avoiding an autopsy, the family can retain more control over his medical records, and protect his privacy.

.....snipped above for focus......

IMO.

JMO

I agree but for a different reason. I think that may be precicely why there is no autopsy. To prevent audit trail to de-escalate the international incident.

Assuming his condition, initial coma, and utlimate death was due to actions taken on him by NK I am leaning towards the US government found out what caused his death even before the family did and has worked out an agreement with the family to help them out financially in exchange for them to not do an autopsy and to prevent this from blowing up anymore than it already has.

The US government is very aware and protective of how they handle international incidents and they typically like to prevent them from escalating into the public sphere. They like to do things their own way and mostly in secret when it comes to international incidents of great importance when it comes to relationships with regimes of other countries.
.
Its understandable to an extent. So in this case I could see where they may have met with the family and explained the situation and importance to not escalate the publics rage against the regime. They would assure the family they are and have been taking steps to try to improve the hostility between NK and US.

Further basis of this can be found when we look at families that had family members taken hostage by Somalia pirates. I remember very well a familiy doing a news interview where they explained how the US government met with them and encouraged them not to pay a ransom to them on their own. Some families were working outside the government and doing their own negotiations to pay ransoms to try to free their family members. The US government tried to encourage them not to do that but could not stop them. The government likes to try to handle things on their own and its understandable to an extent because it deals with country to country relationships that can have future major effects.

So back to this case, I could see where the US may have offerred a substantial sum of money to "help" the family in return for quieting this down with no paper audit trail and no autopsy because they all probably know exactly what happened already and no need for the public to get any more outraged about it when the US has been trying to deal with NK for a long time and will continue to take steps to try to change things for the better in their own way.

This is all based on the assumption that NK did do something to him that ultimately caused his death. Which I believe to be the case because of the coma happening right after the trial which was over a year ago. I think his father also believes NK did something to him to cause the original coma based on below article.

"It is now known that Warmbier has been in a coma since March 2016, when he was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor after being arrested on charges of stealing an item with a propaganda slogan on it."

"Doctors have concluded that Warmbier suffered a "severe" neurological injury during the time of his imprisonment under what Warmbier's father, Fred, called the "pariah regime." North Korea blamed Warmbier's comatose state -- described by a doctor as "responsiveness wakefullness on botulism", but Fred Warmbier doesn't buy it."

""We don't believe anything they (North Korea) say," said Fred Warmbier, who was wearing his son's sport coat as he discussed Otto during a Thursday press conference."

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...the-students-north-korea-detainment/22362272/