NV - 59 Dead, over 500 injured in Mandalay Bay shooting in Las Vegas, 1 Oct 2017 #8

[Spice]

We did link it before, we did see it before but cognitive dissonance aside, it makes no rational sense at all.
People fall on corridors. Rooms are breached by hotel thieves .. Insurance!!!
Just because we saw it written does not make it true.
Privacy issues in relation to cctv is based around cameras being in bathrooms, changing rooms, beauty parlours or gymns within hotels.
A hotel corridor is in effect a public area.
There is NO OTHER way to monitor hotel rooms or to protect them on behalf of the paying guest without them

[FONT="]Cameras can usually be found in common and shared areas in hotels — like lobbies, hallways and pool areas. The American Hotel and Lodging Association, which represents 80% of all franchise hotels, said security protocols in place at hotels call for the use of security cameras in public areas.
[/FONT]http://time.com/4914689/hotels-hidden-cameras-spy/

I am sharing with you that I worked in a hotel in the middle of NYC , a city with cameras everywhere, and they did not have cameras in hotel hallways off of the guest rooms. As far as the privacy that I am referring to, many people check into hotels (nice ones, not just seedy ones) and have affairs, frequent sex workers (ESPECIALLY IN VEGAS), there is a level of privacy expected and provided. I would find it weird if they did have cameras in the hallways. Also, obviously having cameras in bathrooms and inside the actual rooms would be bizarre and likely a criminal invasion of privacy. That is not what I am referring to here. We are only freaking out about no cameras in the hallways now, after the fact, and in hindsight. It may seem incredible now , after the events of LV, that there were no cameras in the hallways, but not prior.

Hotels provide privacy. Guests expect privacy. People travel to vegas to mostly engage in gambling, partying, the frequenting of sex workers, not to be watched by big brother coming in and out of their room or having cameras document who is coming in and out of their room. And as far as belongings in the room being stolen by a thief breaching the room, that is why almost every hotel provides guests with access to an in room safe....


imo

 

[kittythehare]

I am sharing with you that I worked in a hotel in the middle of NYC , a city with cameras everywhere, and they did not have cameras in hotel hallways off of the guest rooms. As far as the privacy that I am referring to, many people check into hotels (nice ones, not just seedy ones) and have affairs, frequent sex workers (ESPECIALLY IN VEGAS), there is a level of privacy expected and provided. I would find it weird if they did have cameras in the hallways. Also, obviously having cameras in bathrooms and inside the actual rooms would be bizarre and likely a criminal invasion of privacy. That is not what I am referring to here. We are only freaking out about no cameras in the hallways now, after the fact, and in hindsight. It may seem incredible now , after the events of LV, that there were no cameras in the hallways, but not prior.

Hotels provide privacy. Guests expect privacy. People travel to vegas to mostly engage in gambling, partying, the frequenting of sex workers, not to be watched by big brother coming in and out of their room or having cameras document who is coming in and out of their room. And as far as belongings in the room being stolen by a thief breaching the room, that is why almost every hotel provides guests with access to an in room safe....


imo

Privacy does not mean they are magically #vanished through some mysterious process while travelling in common areas in hotels.
Unless you worked in every single hotel on the strip in the past 6 months your experience is not sufficiently rational an argument for stating cctv cameras on common areas does not exist.
Lets just part ways on this..

 

[m00c0w]

I am sharing with you that I worked in a hotel in the middle of NYC , a city with cameras everywhere, and they did not have cameras in hotel hallways off of the guest rooms. As far as the privacy that I am referring to, many people check into hotels (nice ones, not just seedy ones) and have affairs, frequent sex workers (ESPECIALLY IN VEGAS), there is a level of privacy expected and provided. I would find it weird if they did have cameras in the hallways. Also, obviously having cameras in bathrooms and inside the actual rooms would be bizarre and likely a criminal invasion of privacy. That is not what I am referring to here. We are only freaking out about no cameras in the hallways now, after the fact, and in hindsight. It may seem incredible now , after the events of LV, that there were no cameras in the hallways, but not prior.

Hotels provide privacy. Guests expect privacy. People travel to vegas to mostly engage in gambling, partying, the frequenting of sex workers, not to be watched by big brother coming in and out of their room or having cameras document who is coming in and out of their room. And as far as belongings in the room being stolen by a thief breaching the room, that is why almost every hotel provides guests with access to an in room safe....


imo

Yeah, I’m both surprised and not surprised there weren’t cameras. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, and hallway cameras (at least observable ones) detract from this notion. However, I would have thought there would be cameras, just not as obvious and only really accessible in the event of a crime.

I would assume, if there are no cameras, that they ran some sort of cost-benefit analysis and ruled that whatever issues they could face would be worth not having the cameras. I wonder if that analysis is still holding up with the pending lawsuits.

 

[Spice]

I hate to link the NYPost but they are reporting from a 2013 article from the Associated Press:

Big Brother Is Watching You In Vegas Except In Hotel Hallways

LAS VEGAS — Hotel maid Brandi Patrick was chased down the hallway at the Flamingo casino last year by a nearly naked man. She said she had to lock herself in a cleaning closet and, as the man rattled the handle, fumble around in her pockets to find her cellphone so she could call security.

She said she’s haunted by the thought of what might have happened if she hadn’t had her phone. “Something could happen and no one would know it`till the end of the shift,” she said.

Las Vegas casinos — some of the most closely-watched spaces in the world — don’t have video cameras in guest room hallways, an absence that hotel workers like Patrick, patrons and prosecutors say can act as a green light for crime.

Yet the Associated Press found that 23 of the 27 major Strip casinos have no surveillance in hotel hallways or elevator landings. All but four of the 27 hotels are owned by MGM Resorts International, Caesars Entertainment Corp., Las Vegas Sands Corp. or Wynn Resorts Ltd.

The AP arrived at the tally by interviewing casino officials and visiting the hotels that wouldn’t comment. Only Caesars Palace, Planet Hollywood, the MGM Grand and Tropicana Las Vegas monitor the halls above the gambling floor.

“People have a false sense of safety when they go to a casino,” security consultant Fred Del Marva said. “You think, `I’m going to Bellagio, they have 2,000 surveillance cameras, so I’m going to be safe.’ And you’re wrong. The level of security at the hotel level is zero.”

23 of the 27 major hotels in Vegas did not monitor hotel hallways with cameras as of 2013.

http://nypost.com/2013/10/08/big-brother-is-watching-you-in-vegas-except-in-hotel-hallways/

 

[Spice]

Privacy does not mean they are magically #vanished through some mysterious process while travelling in common areas in hotels.
Unless you worked in every single hotel on the strip in the past 6 months your experience is not sufficiently rational an argument for stating cctv cameras on common areas does not exist.
Lets just part ways on this..

I just posted an article stating that the AP found in 2013 that 23 out of 27 major hotels in Vegas did not monitor hotel hallways with cameras, boosting my anecdote with fact. I will say, anecdotally , that there is a culture of privacy and secret keeping for guests in hotel work. I cannot imagine what that culture is like in Las Vegas. There is a reason why Casino Boss's are not interested in investing in cameras in the hallways off of guest rooms (prior to LV) and I would imagine they believed that the cost did not reap a benefit for them, or they would be in place.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Also from article...
"Lombardo also confirmed Monday that the 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay, where the gunman’s corner suite was located, did not have security cameras facing the gunman’s suite or the stairwell door that Paddock had apparently sealed sometime before the shooting. The only cameras on the floor faced the elevators."

I know this has already been discussed here, and I read the article that was written several years ago that stated only a handful of hotels along the strip have cameras in their hallways, but what I can't figure out is WHY???

With the amount of money that flows in and out of LV, I assumed every hotel on that strip had cameras filming every square inch of the property 24/7/52/365. I think it's donkey kong that they don't! I mean, I live in little ole rinky dink Myrtle Beach and all the hotels here have cameras in their hallways. The police are always asking for the public's help with ID'ing a suspect by having the news show hotel camera footage and/or still images.

Every single one of those hotels should have wall-to-wall coverage on every square inch accessed by the public. What's the freaking point of having a camera in the hallway that faces the elevator but not the stairwell? That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's completely worthless. Don't want to be seen? That's cool. Just take the elevator to the 31st or 33rd floor and use the stairwell to enter the hallway on the 32nd. Easy peasy.

This just confirms that LE has no way in hell of knowing when/where SP came/went during his stay at the MB. They can't even be sure he had no visitors for that matter!

So in the first paragraph they admit to having cameras on the hotel floors

 

[Gooddeeds]

Privacy does not mean they are magically #vanished through some mysterious process while travelling in common areas in hotels.
Unless you worked in every single hotel on the strip in the past 6 months your experience is not sufficiently rational an argument for stating cctv cameras on common areas does not exist.
Lets just part ways on this..

-Kitty, I should have added that no matter what is written, in the case of surveillance it does not matter. That’s difficult to grasp and I understand the defying logic.

-You will rarely read a ‘camera surveillance in all areas’ stipulation. Its the nature of the source.

 

[cujenn81]

How businesses manage their security is never common public knowledge and Mandalay Bay remains open for business. But it is a fact that authorities are confident there was not a second shooter in the room on October 1st. For all we know, rather than video cameras on the 32nd "floor", they're hidden in the ceiling.

From October 20th ---BBM
"McMahill said authorities are confident there was not another shooter in Stephen Paddock's room, but are still trying to determine whether anyone else knew of Paddock's plans.
Other developments from the media briefing and McMahill's interview with CNN:
-- Authorities do not believe another person used Stephen Paddock's room key at the Mandalay Bay hotel
-- McMahill called Campos a "true hero."
-- Investigators have reviewed "voluminous amounts of video" from many different locations including Mandalay Bay and have not seen any other person they think at this point is another suspect."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/06/us/las-vegas-shooting-investigation/index.html

*****
In the article, it's a logical conclusion "another suspect" refers to what LE is still investigating -- "whether anyone else knew of Paddock's plans".

Again, the wording of these statements is the thing that annoys me. They "don't believe anyone else used his hotel key" (which is a tangible thing the hotel can actually track) but how can they be sure that SP didn't just open his door and let someone else in? If there's no footage of his corner suite or the stairwell next to it (as they've claimed), they can't.

If they reviewed every second of footage taken from every single camera at the MB between September 1st and October 2nd (which would take an enormous amount of time and manpower to accomplish), they would still have no definitive answer in regards to his comings and goings because they can't review footage if it doesn't exist. Allegedly.

I'm not saying I think there were others involved. I'm not saying he did or did not have visitors. I'm not even saying the statements aren't true. I'm just saying they are incomplete and not definitive. It's ridiculous to say something is true with absolute certainty if there's a lack of evidence, and therefore, cannot be proven. YKWIM?

They also use quite a few qualifiers in these statements.

"Authorities do not BELIEVE..."

"Investigators ... HAVE NOT SEEN any other person they THINK AT THIS POINT is another suspect."
(The use of "at this point" is a big one...)

 

[kittythehare]

I just posted an article stating that the AP found in 2013 that 23 out of 27 major hotels in Vegas did not monitor hotel hallways with cameras, boosting my anecdote with fact. I will say, anecdotally , that there is a culture of privacy and secret keeping for guests in hotel work. I cannot imagine what that culture is like in Las Vegas. There is a reason why Casino Boss's are not interested in investing in cameras in the hallways off of guest rooms (prior to LV) and I would imagine they believed that the cost did not reap a benefit for them, or they would be in place.

we already actually discussed this 'fact' several weeks ago, it seems like. and we put up the same posts incl the ap post at that time as well.
do they have fire alarms on the floors?
What if somebody is murdered in the corridor while returning to their room from the casino having won heavily?

 

[Gooddeeds]

Again, the wording of these statements is the thing that annoys me. They "don't believe anyone else used his hotel key" (which is a tangible thing the hotel can actually track) but how can they be sure that SP didn't just open his door and let someone else in? If there's no footage of his corner suite or the stairwell next to it (as they've claimed), they can't.

If they reviewed every second of footage taken from every single camera at the MB between September 1st and October 2nd (which would take an enormous amount of time and manpower to accomplish), they would still have no definitive answer in regards to his comings and goings because they can't review footage if it doesn't exist. Allegedly.

I'm not saying I think there were others involved. I'm not saying he did or did not have visitors. I'm not even saying the statements aren't true. I'm just saying they are incomplete and not definitive. It's ridiculous to say something is true with absolute certainty if there's a lack of evidence, and therefore, cannot be proven. YKWIM?

They also use quite a few qualifiers in these statements.

"Authorities do not BELIEVE..."

"Investigators ... HAVE NOT SEEN any other person they THINK AT THIS POINT is another suspect."
(The use of "at this point" is a big one...)

-Correct, it is ‘in the wording’. At this point, and ironically, they are expanding the speculations as opposed to their desire to hush them.

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.facebook.com/Mandalay-Bay-Theft-Las-Vegas-1710146352569539/
This hotel has a very long history of theft.
https://www.tripadvisor.ie/ShowUser...dalay_Bay_Resort_Casino-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

EMERGENCY EQUIPMENTMandalay Bay Resort & Casino is equipped with alarm and sprinkler systems. Fire extinguishers andother emergency equipment are strategically located in all areas of the building. Mandalay Bay Resort &Casino Security Office monitors all building emergency systems throughout the facility. It is imperativethat all fire hose cabinets, strobes, and fire extinguishers be kept clear, accessible, and free ofobstructions at all times. The fire hose cabinets, strobes, and fire extinguishers are permanent fixtures ofthe facility and cannot be moved.

I found this https://www.mandalaybay.com/content...convention-center-policies-and-procedures.pdf

 

[Spice]

we already actually discussed this 'fact' several weeks ago, it seems like. and we put up the same posts incl the ap post at that time as well.
do they have fire alarms on the floors?
What if somebody is murdered in the corridor while returning to their room from the casino having won heavily?

So the article was already linked. So why is it still so hard to believe???? Im confused. Also, I would really hope they have fire alarms, if not I am sure they would be in massive violation of fire code. I am not seeing how cameras (which are not code, obviously or they would all have them) and fire alarms are a realistic comparison?

Do I think they should have cameras for the safety of their workers and guests. Yes. I do. But they apparently do not believe that the risk benefit analysis benefits them. (Prior to LV)

So does this mean that no matter what... even with a link factually establishing that the overwhelming majority of major hotels in Vegas, do not monitor their hallways with cameras, people are going to continue to refuse to believe it?

Are we going to continue to belabor the issue even in the face of the factual evidence stating otherwise? I ask honestly, because this is where I am personally getting stuck in these particular threads. Facts are presented , linked, established, and then ignored . Dead horses keep getting beaten. The conversation does not move forward. Its not personally directed at you as I enjoy many of your posts. I just don't get it. If we are willfully ignoring facts, what kind of conversation are we all having?

 

[Spice]

https://www.facebook.com/Mandalay-Bay-Theft-Las-Vegas-1710146352569539/
This hotel has a very long history of theft.
https://www.tripadvisor.ie/ShowUser...dalay_Bay_Resort_Casino-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

EMERGENCY EQUIPMENTMandalay Bay Resort & Casino is equipped with alarm and sprinkler systems. Fire extinguishers andother emergency equipment are strategically located in all areas of the building. Mandalay Bay Resort &Casino Security Office monitors all building emergency systems throughout the facility. It is imperativethat all fire hose cabinets, strobes, and fire extinguishers be kept clear, accessible, and free ofobstructions at all times. The fire hose cabinets, strobes, and fire extinguishers are permanent fixtures ofthe facility and cannot be moved.

I found this https://www.mandalaybay.com/content...convention-center-policies-and-procedures.pdf

Kitty,

Of course they have fire alarms! It's fire code. It would be against the law for them not to have them in a hotel . I'm not getting the comparison of fire code to the (not very wise) choice of not installing cameras in guest hallways...

 

[kittythehare]

So the article was already linked. So why is it still so hard to believe???? Im confused. Also, I would really hope they have fire alarms, if not I am sure they would be in massive violation of fire code. I am not seeing how cameras (which are not code, obviously or they would all have them) and fire alarms are a realistic comparison?

Do I think they should have cameras for the safety of their workers and guests. Yes. I do. But they apparently do not believe that the risk benefit analysis benefits them. (Prior to LV)

So does this mean that no matter what... even with a link factually establishing that the overwhelming majority of major hotels in Vegas, do not monitor their hallways with cameras, people are going to continue to refuse to believe it?

Are we going to continue to belabor the issue even in the face of the factual evidence stating otherwise? I ask honestly, because this is where I am personally getting stuck in these particular threads. Facts are presented , linked, established, and then ignored . Dead horses keep getting beaten. The conversation does not move forward. Its not personally directed at you as I enjoy many of your posts. I just don't get it. If we are willfully ignoring facts, what kind of conversation are we all having?

well Spice, who keeps bringing it up?
Th AP report was 2013.
This is 2017.
It is possible things have changed.
It is also possible aP is not the bible and must be swallowed whole and entirely.
It is also possible they are not always accurate.

 

[Spice]

well Spice, who keeps bringing it up?
Th AP report was 2013.
This is 2017.
It is possible things have changed.
It is also possible aP is not the bible and must be swallowed whole and entirely.
It is also possible they are not always accurate.

LOL! Not me! I stopped discussing cameras in hotel hallways weeks ago. But I still see it coming up over and over again. Despite links that state otherwise. And yes, the article is from 2013, the very recent past in the grand scheme of things. AP is not the bible, no, and I don't "swallow" anything . I do consider my sources and guess what? The AP is not bunny ears "facts". The source has veracity. More veracity than opinions that for some reason, three years ago, they decided to put out a report full of lies. To me, that is swallowing something other than facts. And if things have changed in Vegas in response to the AP's report, do you think there would be a linkable article stating that? Do you think the original author may have followed up with such a change?

 

[canadiangirl]

http://time.com/4914689/hotels-hidden-cameras-spy/

I found this article interesting and wondering why Vegas would be exempt?

Cameras can usually be found in common and shared areas in hotels — like lobbies, hallways and pool areas. The American Hotel and Lodging Association, which represents 80% of all franchise hotels, said security protocols in place at hotels call for the use of security cameras in public areas.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

 

[drama_farmer]

we already actually discussed this 'fact' several weeks ago, it seems like. and we put up the same posts incl the ap post at that time as well.
do they have fire alarms on the floors?
What if somebody is murdered in the corridor while returning to their room from the casino having won heavily?

bbm

ropeller:

If I were to don my sarcasm-infused "bottom-line-is-what-matters, it's-awful-but-I-guess-business-is-business" hat on my head, (to answer your question about the lack of cctv coverage on guest floors,) i might say. . .

When a guest is robbed, its not the casino's loss, so possibly, IMO not a major factor in their cost/benefit analysis.

Too harsh?

 

[kittythehare]

LOL! Not me! I stopped discussing cameras in hotel hallways weeks ago. But I still see it coming up over and over again. Despite links that state otherwise. And yes, the article is from 2013, the very recent past in the grand scheme of things. AP is not the bible, no, and I don't "swallow" anything . I do consider my sources and guess what? The AP is not bunny ears "facts". The source has veracity. More veracity than opinions that for some reason, three years ago, they decided to put out a report full of lies. To me, that is swallowing something other than facts. And if things have changed in Vegas in response to the AP's report, do you think there would be a linkable article stating that? Do you think the original author may have followed up with such a change?

Have you searched for updated policies?
Original authors do not always update 4 yr old posts, some do not update one week old posts.

I agree its highly tiresome.. the constant repetition and people not reading past work here.
I accepted the 2013 report when it was presented here. At the time I did not read the date on it properly or at all and had not realised it was so old.
We are as far as I understand, trying to scrape some facts together along with probabilities in an effort to chuck conspiracy theories as being invalid, without evidence..
This is one way to approach the task..
Its not too bad a way, if people have read preceding posts and not just pretending to have read them..
There are anomalies.
Highlighting them is the right thing to do.
Why was his meal cart not removed? Thats a massive flashing light..
Why has hotel not released any cctv footage?
It now appears guests are not insured against theft- hotel conducts its 'own investigation' and finds itself innocent of all wrongdoing in every case I found.
It also refuses to discuss its investigative methodology.
Everything does not fit in a hotel safe.. there was one case where the entire safe was taken..
Sanity.
Old people stumbling back to their rooms half twisted are highly likely to fall, young people too..
Its pretty shocking stuff.Its worthy of mention.. mGM is a bolshy corporation in almost every respect..
I would like to see them boycotted permanently, actually.

 

[kittythehare]

[/B]
bbm


If I were to don my sarcasm-infused "bottom-line-is-what-matters, it's-awful-but-I-guess-business-is-business" hat on my head, (to answer your question about the lack of cctv coverage on guest floors,) i might say. . .

When a guest is robbed, its not the casino's loss, so possibly, IMO not a major factor in their cost/benefit analysis.

Too harsh?

Well if a guest sprays the hotel corridor walls with large brightly coloured graffiti, whose problem is it?

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.tripadvisor.ie/ShowUser...dalay_Bay_Resort_Casino-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html
Heres some recent reviews. Check out the lower star ratings and reviews.. its pretty bad.