GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #4

[kaen]

That is, if you believe there was a second confrontation. I do not. I think that whoever was in the Meyers car for the initial encounter near the school was in the car for the entire thing. I don't think the Meyers car ever went home to drop off one person and pick up another.

I had had that same thought about the Meyer car inhabitants not changing. That then leads to other thought-provoking questions.

 

[ModMaiden]

Whoa! The next to last paragraph of this article, from RM's interview with N. Grace:

"How do we know my son didn't fire first? It doesn't matter. They were at our home!"

That suggests to me that there's a possibility that Brandon did fire first in the cul de sac. It sounds like RM is planting the seeds for justifying that in case it comes out somehow.

It doesn't matter whether Brandon fired first? Well, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. But it would sure be nice to know the truth.

This has been my impression all along that they lured the suspect to the house knowing they could use "I was at my own home" excuse. I just don't get a cozy feeling about the Meyers family. I can see the mother running outside to see what was going on and getting caught in the crossfire. My husband does this when something is going on in the neighborhood. Maybe not always the right decision but he goes out to see what is going on and help if needed. I just can't, for the life of me, see her doing what the family claims.

It's a sad situation for everyone involved. I don't view the suspect in any other light except as a human being who made a bad decision on that night. But I can say the same thing for the other family. Bad decisions from everyone except for the mother who, I believe, went outside to check on her children's safety. That is exactly what a good parent would do.

 

[sonjay]

EN didn't make a statement to police. His friend did. The friend did not say that EN said no shots were fired at him. The friend said EN didn't say anything about shots being fired at him. There's difference between those two things. Either shots weren't fired at EN, EN didn't mention shots fired at him or his friend doesn't remember EN saying it. We can't know which because the police statement doesn't have a definitive answer to that question.


If TM had a .45, some of the .45 bullets could have come from her handgun. That's why I hope the police compared the .45 bullets. It's doubtful though since we already know the LE didn't do GPR test to consider other possibilities. It seems LE only did tests to confirm their theory and nothing else. But perhaps EN's lawyers will have someone compare the bullets.

If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure that forensics will be able to determine that. Also, the location of the empty .45 casings would be a clue. We haven't seen anything specific about exactly where the various shell casings were found, or exactly where TM's body was located.

Or TM could have had a 9mm like Brandon.

Or TM could have had a revolver. Women often prefer revolvers.

Or TM could have had a gun with her but not fired it.

Or TM could have not been in the car at all.

 

[jayme1133]

This has been my impression all along that they lured the suspect to the house knowing they could use "I was at my own home" excuse. I just don't get a cozy feeling about the Meyers family.

I agree and the "wrong" person was shot! Very sad regardless!

 

[Miss Muffet]

If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure that forensics will be able to determine that. Also, the location of the empty .45 casings would be a clue. We haven't seen anything specific about exactly where the various shell casings were found, or exactly where TM's body was located.

Or TM could have had a 9mm like Brandon.

Or TM could have had a revolver. Women often prefer revolvers.

Or TM could have had a gun with her but not fired it.

Or TM could have not been in the car at all.

Of course forensics can determine if the bullets were all fired from the same weapon IF forensics bothers to compare the bullets to try to make that determination. Since we're talking about an investigation that didn't do a GPR test on TM, it's unlikely the bullets were compared. If the evidence doesn't disappear, the defense can have the test done.

I'd love to see a diagram of the shell casing locations, but I suspect it won't tell us much to indicate if there was another 45 being shot. Since shots were fired from a moving vehicle, I'm sure there were casings everywhere at each scene. As a result, a comparison of the bullets to verify they were all shot from the same handgun is the best way to find out if there was more than one 45.

 

[Hiandmighty]

BBM. Nah. It doesn't take a criminal mastermind to say to oneself, "Mom having this gun will make her look bad. I'd better run into the house and hide it before the cops get here."

People do all sort of crazy things when they think they might get in trouble with the law. They hide weapons. They make up stories to tell LE. They hide or dispose of evidence.

I would bet almost any amount of money that the time from the shooting to the time the first cops arrived on scene allowed plenty of time for BM or KM to run inside and stuff mom's gun under a sofa cushion. Or put it in granny's drawer. Or stick it under the seat of the family's truck.

Also, keep this in mind: we have not yet seen the police report of all the evidence found at the scene. We've only seen the arrest affidavit, in which they included only enough info to justify arresting EN. The complete list of all evidence found at the scene might well include a gun other than Brandon's found on or near mom, or in her purse or in the car.

I tend to think (unless we find out otherwise) that LE really dropped the ball on this case. They bought the family's story and by the time the family started changing stories, it was too late to go back and reinvestigate.

 

[Gypsy Road]

I tend to think (unless we find out otherwise) that LE really dropped the ball on this case. They bought the family's story and by the time the family started changing stories, it was too late to go back and reinvestigate.

100% agree!

 

[sonjay]

I tend to think (unless we find out otherwise) that LE really dropped the ball on this case. They bought the family's story and by the time the family started changing stories, it was too late to go back and reinvestigate.

You might well be right, but I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion at this point. We don't know yet what evidence police gathered and what testing they've done.

As far as no GSR test on the deceased? While I don't fault the defense for bringing that up, I'm not sure I fault LE for not doing a GSR test on her. I would suspect that it's not terribly common to do GSR tests on the victim. And even now there's nothing solid suggesting that TM ever had a gun with her that night, much less that she fired a gun that night. Nothing more than guessing and speculation.

But other than the lack of GSR test on TM, I'm not aware of anything that the cops should have done that we know they didn't. They might have all kinds of evidence that we're not aware of. At least, I sure hope they do.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I hope they do too.

 

[PaperDoll]

That's when EN reportedly told Krisztian. But in the same affidavit, "Altergott said Nowsch never told him the people in the green car ever shot at him."

The warrant affidavit makes it sound as if EN's conversation with Altergott & Krisztian was one conversation with all 3 of them together. If so, then one of them is either misremembering that conversation or lying. Or maybe Altergott left the room (bathroom? get another beer?), and while he was out of the room, EN told K no one had shot at him.

Either way, that same affidavit says that Brandon says that he fired at EN in the cul de sac, and that police found 9mm casings in the cul de sac.

Both can't be true. Either Brandon fired, or Brandon didn't fire. I tend to believe that Brandon fired. Not only does that correlate with the fired 9mm casings found by police, but it's actually one of the very very few statements by the Meyerses that hasn't changed at all. (Although in early reports they said Brandon was firing a shotgun, but they have consistently reported that he fired.)

So IF EN told one or both of his friends that no one shot at him, he was either mistaken or lying. Or Krisztian might be mistaken or lying about EN telling her that.

I understand BM took shots at the Audi, but IIRC that was after the 2nd shooting location which is his home. From what I understand EN was the one who took the first shot in the first location which was Villa MOnterey and Alta. Where there any bullet casing that were recovered from that area that belong to BM?

 

[PaperDoll]

This has been my impression all along that they lured the suspect to the house knowing they could use "I was at my own home" excuse. I just don't get a cozy feeling about the Meyers family. I can see the mother running outside to see what was going on and getting caught in the crossfire. My husband does this when something is going on in the neighborhood. Maybe not always the right decision but he goes out to see what is going on and help if needed. I just can't, for the life of me, see her doing what the family claims.

It's a sad situation for everyone involved. I don't view the suspect in any other light except as a human being who made a bad decision on that night. But I can say the same thing for the other family. Bad decisions from everyone except for the mother who, I believe, went outside to check on her children's safety. That is exactly what a good parent would do.

Ok, here is what I'm not understanding, TM and BM went out to look for the Audi, but they found the Audi on another street just sitting there, so why didn't the Audi pursue them home the first time when TM and daughter were out? Again, this maybe a lie by the Meyers, but I'm going by what I read in the police report. EN took the first shot in the 1st location which scared BM so he took off for home. Since EN took the 1st shot I would think it would be self defense to shoot back??? I'M SOOOOO CONFUSED!!!!! lol

 

[2sharpe2]

So I am totally confused reading everyone's ideas�� Can someone please help me to understand this..I read that BM got out of the car at home went around to help his mother out of the (and why would he need to help her out? Drunk/Drugs) car heard car coming down Cul-de-sac pushed her back in than I read after gun fire BM said that she was on the ground behind him..Help with this one..So my next question is if the Audi was coming towards the cul-de-sac when they reached the house is that when shots were fired because than the bullet holes would be on the drivers side which means the driver was firing or did they turn around in the Cul-de-sac and as they are heading past the house driving up the street that bullet holes are on passenger side and EN shot..Well I guess we don't know since they supposedly haven't found the Audi..Am I confused or what? Whew..

 

[newone]

Ok, here is what I'm not understanding, TM and BM went out to look for the Audi, but they found the Audi on another street just sitting there, so why didn't the Audi pursue them home the first time when TM and daughter were out? Again, this maybe a lie by the Meyers, but I'm going by what I read in the police report. EN took the first shot in the 1st location which scared BM so he took off for home. Since EN took the 1st shot I would think it would be self defense to shoot back??? I'M SOOOOO CONFUSED!!!!! lol

bbm: good point -- sounds like the scene from the movie ''duel'' with dennis hopper ...... demon vehicle just waiting in ambush -- very unlikely as you point out

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I've been following this thread for awhile, but I just got my account here. Going through the alleged sequence of events, I could see how EN could get off very lightly, particularly in light of the police/DA getting rid of the body before they even had an indictment and it being cremated so future tests can ever be performed. EN could make a Stand Your Ground defense, which whether or not that is true to the events, the reasonable doubt could be there. The police/DA deprived the defense of being able to obtain evidence and because of that it can hurt the prosecution because they voluntarily got rid of a way to disprove the defense's theories.

One thing I've done and I'd recommend everyone else on this thread do is open up the Criminal Complaint in one window and Google Maps in another window and retrace everything step-by-step. Doing that I've seen things that I don't think anyone else has commented on. My observations for reading and re-reading the complaint where I'm going in order:
1. (1st Paragraph of Facts) Where did TM and daughter drive when the daughter alleged drove in the residential area? To me there's an awful lot of time to account for as there's 40 minutes of 'driving lessons,' which in that 40 minutes I'm including trip time by TM to the school as it is a negligible distance from their home. If for instance 20 minutes was spent driving around Las Vegas with the daughter at the wheel that should have taken them a few miles. Also during this time the daughter could have pulled into the park where EN was and taunted/threatened him by driving the car in an antagonistic way like repeatedly pointing the car at him and speeding up as he sat on a park bench.
2. (2nd Paragraph) Why was TM driving on Durango in the first place? If it was not for a driving lesson as that had already ended and the Audi had not been spotted where was TM going and for what? Check it for yourselves on Google Maps and you'll see that TM drove past her house by continuing on Alta to Durango.
3. (2nd Paragraph) The description of events given is not physically possible and in fact it sounds like TM was already chasing after the Audi before Brandon allegedly got involved. Per the daughter she honked when the Audi was beside them (was TM speeding up to prevent the Audi from passing?) on Durango. The Audi then passed TM on Westcliff by allegedly cutting them off, so that means the Audi was in front of TM at this time. The next sentence then suddenly says the Audi came from behind on Cimarron, which is not physically possible. Of course there are ways TM could have gotten ahead of the Audi, which wouldn't look good in a police report and it's also possible that the car did the U-turn because TM and the daughter had been confrontational with them and chased them from Durango to Westcliff and finally to Cimarron. Also there's no reason for TM to have driven that route (Alta -> Durango -> Westcliff -> Cimarron), which makes me think they were chasing the Audi from Durango if not Alta, possibly having seen EN get picked up and this was part of their taunting. Seeing EN getting picked up and following the Audi from Alta would explain why they were on Durango from Alta instead of having turned in on Carmel Peak to their home, but this doesn't necessarily have to be what happened as I detailed below an alternative time EN gets picked up.
4. (3rd Paragraph) This could be a lie of omission here as they could have discussed plans for vigilantism and in fact that seems likely
5. (4th Paragraph) TM is going out of her way to not only find but chase the Audi. The Audi going at a high rate of speed when chased by TM sounds like they are trying to get away from TM, not hunt TM. This sounds like TM et al either intended to shoot those in the Audi or to scare the Audi passengers by threatening them. What was the purpose of the high speed chase??? Once the high speed chase was initiated by TM it sounds like a shooting was inevitable as I don't see what other end game there would be.
6. (5th Paragraph) EN and others in the Audi could have seen BM/TM with a weapon and opened fire in self-defense. Whether or not BM/TM fired at EN, I think you'd have a defense that you shot because you had a gun pointed at you. This defense would be bolstered by the admitted chasing of the Audi most recently at high speed.
7. (6th Paragraph) However unsavory or ill-advised it may have been, EN had a legal right to be on Mt Shasta and EN wasn't driving anyway, so he can't necessarily be blamed for being there. If BM fired first or otherwise drew his weapon first this could be a case of Stand Your Ground as the Audi was doing nothing illegal by driving on Mt Shasta and EN stood his ground after being shot at...at least that is how it could play out in court.
8. (9th Paragraph) Meyers went over to EN's the date of the autopsy. This presumably was done without the knowledge of the police and was done the day of the autopsy. To me this looks extremely bad with vigilantism where the family was going to confront a suspected armed and dangerous suspect who was wanted for murder. If they're willing to confront an armed and dangerous murder suspect on their own this only further makes it look like they were engaging in vigilantism from the beginning and were aggressively stalking/pursuing EN and/or the Audi...maybe they were trying to chase a drug dealer out of their neighborhood.
9. (10th Paragraph) With the police having already arrested him on 2/17 for an unrelated warrant, why did they subsequently let him go? Maybe they had no choice, but it's not discussed that the arrest on the 2/19 was the second time EN had been in custody and questioned as the police had already questioned him about TM on 2/17.
10. (19th Paragraph) It might be irrelevant, but why is one of the last things the complaint says was that only EN knew the shooting took place close to EN's house? Presumably his friend that he called that owned the Audi knew he lived around there.

Also with all this it is possible that TM had the initial confrontation with the Audi driver as the driver was going to pick up EN. That would explain EN's friends saying EN called the Audi to pick him up after having seen TM's car by the park and then once the Audi arrived the car was in the school parking lot and he saw someone pointing a gun. This actually is pretty consistent between BM and EN as BM himself places them by the school when BM/TM saw the Audi and chased it. Given the chain of events the Audi driver could have been furious for his own reasons with TM/BM and it was the driver not EN who stopped the car at the first shooting and who chase TM/BM at the final shooting. I really wish I knew why TM had been on Durango initially and how that ties to the EN timeline to know whether that was before or after the Audi picked up EN.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Ok, here is what I'm not understanding, TM and BM went out to look for the Audi, but they found the Audi on another street just sitting there, so why didn't the Audi pursue them home the first time when TM and daughter were out?

Per BM when TM found the Audi, the Audi tried to get away but TM was chasing them. What may have happened was the first Audi incident happened when it was on it's way to pick up EN. The Audi arrived and EN and the driver probably were just sitting at the school each describing their own experiences with the TM when TM returned to the scene with an armed BM. This caused the Audi driver to flee, which TM pursued as they tried to get away. It seems pretty clear just reading the Criminal Complaint that it was TM hunting the Audi, not the Audi hunting TM. I really hope the police have been pursuing all avenues given how the complaint itself doesn't exactly look very good even if it is believed to be 100% truthful.

 

[PaperDoll]

Welcome, SpanishInquisition :loveyou: I'm confused on a lot of things regarding this case..UGH! First of all I wondered why TM and daughter took the long way home from the school when their house was actually in walking distant. The park is right across the street from the school, and their is another, bigger parking lot, on the other side of the school, but you can't really see that one from the park so if they were driving in that lot I can sort of see them taking another way home (maybe the daughter wanted to drive on the roads??). If I have my times right, EN was in the park for about 40 or so minutes before he saw the green car at the school. He then calls his friend who drive the Audi to pick him up because he sees the car and thinks someone is looking for him and claims he sees someone waving a gun. So, EN was in the park which is right near his house, so why call someone to pick him up? He could have walked home but he didn't. I also believe that maybe the daughter was driving the car because why lean over to honk? If mom was driving wouldn't she honk out of reflex?

 

[SpanishInquisition]

If I have my times right, EN was in the park for about 40 or so minutes before he saw the green car at the school. He then calls his friend who drive the Audi to pick him up because he sees the car and thinks someone is looking for him and claims he sees someone waving a gun. So, EN was in the park which is right near his house, so why call someone to pick him up? He could have walked home but he didn't. I also believe that maybe the daughter was driving the car because why lean over to honk? If mom was driving wouldn't she honk out of reflex?

Yes, that's how I see the time. My reading of it was he initially felt threatened by the car so called his friend, but then after his friend arrived and the Meyers came back is when EN actually saw the gun. Given how the park was his known place of business, a drug deal might have been about to go down, so he couldn't leave. There was some reason EN was at the park at that time of night in the first place and whatever reason that is might be why he wanted to stay and wait for reinforcements.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Also I do want to say that you wouldn't expect GSR tests done in every suspected homicide, I do think you should expect them to be done in homicide investigation involving a shooting. You have to just assume everyone lies and even if you assume the truth is told, what RM said the day after is reason enough to do a GSR test. If you believe RM's 2/13 statement that BM fired a shotgun that alone would be substantial reason to do a GSR test to account for the 9MM shells. If the police/DA can't explain the evidence - including statements voluntarily given to the media - the defense will find an explanation that is most generous of their side and the jury is going to have to give it weight. A GSR test on TM may well have turned up nothing, but there was certainly reason to do it just to confirm it and provide documentary evidence that would trump RM's initial statement that he was simply confused rather than stating the truth.

 

[Miss Muffet]

You've brought lots of fresh ideas for us to consider, SpanishInquisition!

I love the level of research you'd done. I look forward to your posts as the case evolves.

 

[sonjay]

Per BM when TM found the Audi, the Audi tried to get away but TM was chasing them. What may have happened was the first Audi incident happened when it was on it's way to pick up EN. The Audi arrived and EN and the driver probably were just sitting at the school each describing their own experiences with the TM when TM returned to the scene with an armed BM. This caused the Audi driver to flee, which TM pursued as they tried to get away. It seems pretty clear just reading the Criminal Complaint that it was TM hunting the Audi, not the Audi hunting TM. I really hope the police have been pursuing all avenues given how the complaint itself doesn't exactly look very good even if it is believed to be 100% truthful.

Hi and welcome, Spanish! You've made some very good and insightful initial posts here.

You brought up a point that I somehow missed in my multiple readings of the arrest affidavit: BM and TM (or whoever BM as with in the Meyers car) were in fact actively chasing the silver car for quite some ways!

Per Brandon's account:

From Buffalo, Brandon said they turned west on Ducharme and sitting on the north side of Ducharme west of Sam Jonas Street was a silver four door car. Brandon said as they approached the silver car from the rear his mother said there is the car at which point the silver car sped off in front of them west on Ducharme. Brandon said the silver car turned south on Villa Monterey on the west side of Johnson Middle School and began to speed up as they followed it. Brandon said at one point on Villa Monterey just south of Ducharme they were approximately 75 feet behind the silver car.

Brandon said the silver car sped up as it continued south on Villa Monterey.
​

This is a description of a classic car chase! And Brandon and his mother were the chasers!

TM told Brandon to get his gun and come with her. They went out and found the silver car and chased it. Whoa!

I'm starting to think EN was right: They were out to get him.