NY NY - Ellery, Rte 17, WhtFem 30-37, UP15489 193UFNY, GSW, poss from Canada or Europe, note, clothes, Dec'83

[KaylaraOwl]

People were shorter, but she is not old enough to fit into that demographic band frankly, even the short Dutch people were still taller than me. My husband suggested that she looked like she might be Finnish or Swedish, which is a possibility given her IUD. I am working to get information on how to contact the media in Finland about this case. (I can't read Finnish.) I haven't found anyone that matches this woman's description, but if we get the information out across Europe, I think we have a better chance of identifying her.

 

[Bit of hope]

Ok, I found some possible matches. But every darn time, there is something quite off.


1) http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/714dfdeu.html
Pros :
age is a close match (born 1955 => 28yo, can be accounted in a margin)
eyes and hair
nose is quite a match

Cons :
no mole on her lip. However, was 15 when she went missing => could have appeared years after her being missing
her built. However, could had got thinner with age and could had been fully grown up later than average
No info on height and weight
No info about circumstances : everything is possible


2) http://www.doenetwork.org/cases-int/1085dfirl.html
Quite a good facial match. Circumstances reasonably fit.
Height is off by 6cm and eyes are off



I think that for height and weight, we must add +5 for the maximum and substract -5 for the minimum.
On missing people reports, height and weight are declarative : unless LE gets medical record with weight, let assume that the reporter said "She was about 1,55m and 45kg, Sir" : so, if height and weight are off by 5cm or 2in, but the match seems strong, don't be afraid of it.

Marianne Deckers;
Hard to say. There were rumours that she went to Turkey and married there, but there was no evidence of that at all. A wart could grow in 3 months. (uid had one under her left eyebrow) I'm not sure UID had a mole on her lip (did not see/read that). UID seems to have one on her left cheeck (not mentioned I beleave) and (one mentioned) behind her left ear. I think moles could also pop up during life some day. From various sources about the age: estimated between 33-37 years, somewhere else: she could also be 30. That's why I work with a birth range between 1946 - 1953 but of course everything is an estimate from a coroner.

Aleida Maria Anderske Kaspersma
Considered her too but I ruled her out and had blue eyes. She was so much longer. Het story is this: https://www.google.nl/#q=Leida+Kaspersma A very sad story about what can happen if you get lost abroad, as so many are out there. I read somewhere (but can not recall where) that a farmer's son in the neighborhood where she went missing said that his father knew something about her dissapearence, but the father died before he spoke up. There is also a threath of her here on WS.

​

 

[Bit of hope]

Would you like to know my research findings on missing persons, mostly ruled outs by me because of many things

 

[Bit of hope]

People were shorter, but she is not old enough to fit into that demographic band frankly, even the short Dutch people were still taller than me. My husband suggested that she looked like she might be Finnish or Swedish, which is a possibility given her IUD. I am working to get information on how to contact the media in Finland about this case. (I can't read Finnish.) I haven't found anyone that matches this woman's description, but if we get the information out across Europe, I think we have a better chance of identifying her.

Would be great if you could do that. I search the scandinavion country's to but they don't have a nice database like de dutchies and also I experienced the lanquage problem....pfff

 

[Bit of hope]

Would you like to know my research findings on missing persons, mostly ruled outs by me because of many things

http://www.nampn.org/cases/lessard_renee.html Ms Lessard was last seen on July 1, 1976at a municipal campground in St-Félicien in Lac St-Jean. She and a friend leftMontreal for this trip. Her parents received a post card on July 12, 1976however they have not heard from her since. Probably killed by serial killer
Born 1953 UID between 1946 - 1953
Age went missing: 23 , in 1983 30 yrs
158cm / 5ft 2 inch UID 5’4”
52kg /115lb build slender/thin UID 128 pounds/lbs
MP had a scar on right knee
Because of the story and the knee scar I dont think it is our UID

Your thoughts?

 

[Bit of hope]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

Unvolantary missing from Hudson, Kentucky januari 23, 1980, 30years then, 33 years in 1983. No picture (not in Namus and I could'nt find on) brown hair, brown eyes. Mole on left site of neck. height 60 inches/152,4 cm, height UID = 1,58 -1,60 No DNA available in Namus.

 

[Bit of hope]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

Unvolantary missing from Hudson, Kentucky januari 23, 1980, 30years then, 33 years in 1983. No picture (not in Namus and I could'nt find on) brown hair, brown eyes. Mole on left site of neck. height 60 inches/152,4 cm, height UID = 1,58 -1,60 No DNA available in Namus.

No European link as far as I can see

 

[Bit of hope]

https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2014003874&id=6

Marthe Turcotte from Montreal Quebec, Canada
Marthe Turcotte was lastseen in Montreal on September 13, 1971. Her sister dropped her off at theJean-Talon metro station but she was never seen again. Marthe was a student innursing at Thetford cegep situated in Thetford Mines.
DOB 1953 UID birth range 1946 - 1953
Age at disappearence 19, than in 1983 estimated 31 years
No data on hair and eye colour....as far that I could find. Black and white picture, ...no records of her having a child.
Could be...but a long time between missing and finding UID

 

[Bit of hope]

because of her looks...Sylvia Quinet. missing form QB Canada. Can not be UID, because this woman has blue eyes.

 

[Bit of hope]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

I also considered Karen Koppel.
In1980, Karen Koppel (34 jaar) was in a relationship with Ben Stein, a67-year-old married man known around town as the “King of the Janitors” and hadties to organized crime.

The relationship began to sour after Koppel realized that Stein was not trulyestranged from his wife and had no intention of marrying her. It was duringthis period that Koppel became pregnant and was coerced to undergo an abortion. Shortly afterwards, Koppel began making wildaccusations about Stein, and demanded a large financial settlement to letthings drop.

Stein asked a long-time friend – then-Chicago cop Richard "Rick"Simon, who moonlighted for Stein’s firm – to help amicably resolve things,according to police records and interviews.

Simon met with Koppel at Flapjaw's saloon, 810 N. Wabash Avenue, the night shedisappeared. According to published reports Simon offered Koppel $10,000 andthe free use of a Lake Shore Drive apartment in return for her agreement toexit quietly.

Koppel has never been seen since this meeting.

There was speculation at the time that the woman was murdered and dumped in themiddle of Lake Michigan.

Simon said in an interview he doesn’t know what happened to Koppel, but doesn’tbuy that she was murdered. Rather, he suspects she’s still alive with a newidentity, having left Chicago because she was mentally unstable and horribly"humiliated" at being spurned by Stein.

In 1980 34 years, In 1983, 37 years old. Than must be born in 1946 UID birth range 1946 - 1953
Brown eyes, brown (long) hair. 5’4”, 120 pounds/ UID 5'4", 128 pounds.

Probably killed back then...maybe another identity, went abroad....the shot in her mouth...makes me wonder to shut her up forever.

 

[Bit of hope]

I have a question about the crime-site. Was she killed at the spot, was there a lot of blood there. Or could she be killed somewhere else and dumped there. I could not find anything about that. Does anybody know that?

She had no underwear, panty's, shoes...It was very cold, winter.....was she a seks-worker getting in to a truck?....just a woman having seks in a car?, hitchhiking, meeting the wrong person, raped, killed along the way.....Attacked in her motelroom/house raped, killed and dumped...could it be a relative, husband, friend...who did this? How did she end up like this being partly dressed?

 

[Giucy]

Sorry for replying only right now, been hyper busy !!

My husband suggested that she looked like she might be Finnish or Swedish, which is a possibility given her IUD.

Her IUD was distributed in Europe and Canada, but not the US. In those days, Belgium and Netherlands were part of the EEC, including Italy (1957, when EEC was born). In 1983, the EEC was also composed of Denmark, Ireland, UK (1973) and Greece (1981). However, Spain and Portugal were not member at the time our UID was found (they became members in 1986). Finland became a EU (European Union) in 1995 only, so 12 years later after our UID was found.
So, the countries we can work on are the EEC in those days : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:European_Union_enlargement.gif.
However, does your husband's suggestion relate to ancestry or citizenship ? Because citizenship is administrative, it doesn't necessarily relates to her physical characteristics.

Marianne Deckers;
Hard to say. There were rumours that she went to Turkey and married there, but there was no evidence of that at all. A wart could grow in 3 months. (uid had one under her left eyebrow) I'm not sure UID had a mole on her lip (did not see/read that).

You're right !

UID seems to have one on her left cheeck (not mentioned I beleave)

Not mentionned anywhere. It's above her left eye, which is quite unusual !!

and (one mentioned) behind her left ear.

true

I think moles could also pop up during life some day. From various sources about the age: estimated between 33-37 years, somewhere else: she could also be 30. That's why I work with a birth range between 1946 - 1953 but of course everything is an estimate from a coroner.

If I were you, I'd widen the age estimate to 25-40 years old. If we didn't identify her, we need to widen the searching path, starting with age.
Post-mortem age estimations are often inaccurate in adults, while they are more often than not very accurate in children.

Aleida Maria Anderske Kaspersma
Considered her too but I ruled her out and had blue eyes. She was so much longer. Het story is this: https://www.google.nl/#q=Leida+Kaspersma

True for the blue eyes, it's a definitive rule-out.
True for her height, however, keep in mind that height in MP reports are upon declaration by family members, unless LE got the medical records. And even with medical records, it can be inaccurate if the MP has never been measured nor weighted as an adult : more often than not, the doctor asks you. So, the 6cm difference between the UID and the MP is not as problematic as it seems.
On MP reports, height and weight are more often than not inaccurate for adults.

A very sad story about what can happen if you get lost abroad, as so many are out there. I read somewhere (but can not recall where) that a farmer's son in the neighborhood where she went missing said that his father knew something about her dissapearence, but the father died before he spoke up.

There is also a threath of her here on WS.

Any WS thread link about her ?

 

[Giucy]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs) I also considered Karen Koppel.

In1980, Karen Koppel (34 jaar) was in a relationship with Ben Stein, a67-year-old married man known around town as the “King of the Janitors” and hadties to organized crime.

The relationship began to sour after Koppel realized that Stein was not trulyestranged from his wife and had no intention of marrying her. It was duringthis period that Koppel became pregnant and was coerced to undergo an abortion. Shortly afterwards, Koppel began making wildaccusations about Stein, and demanded a large financial settlement to letthings drop.

Stein asked a long-time friend – then-Chicago cop Richard "Rick"Simon, who moonlighted for Stein’s firm – to help amicably resolve things,according to police records and interviews.

Simon met with Koppel at Flapjaw's saloon, 810 N. Wabash Avenue, the night shedisappeared. According to published reports Simon offered Koppel $10,000 andthe free use of a Lake Shore Drive apartment in return for her agreement toexit quietly.

Koppel has never been seen since this meeting.

There was speculation at the time that the woman was murdered and dumped in themiddle of Lake Michigan.

Simon said in an interview he doesn’t know what happened to Koppel, but doesn’tbuy that she was murdered. Rather, he suspects she’s still alive with a newidentity, having left Chicago because she was mentally unstable and horribly"humiliated" at being spurned by Stein.

In 1980 34 years, In 1983, 37 years old. Than must be born in 1946 UID birth range 1946 - 1953
Brown eyes, brown (long) hair. 5’4”, 120 pounds/ UID 5'4", 128 pounds.

Probably killed back then...maybe another identity, went abroad....the shot in her mouth...makes me wonder to shut her up forever.

Good find.

However, how do you account for the IUD ? because it was not distributed in the US when our UID was found.


Her being in Illinois strongly rules her out because of the IUD, which was not distributed in the US. If she were living nearby the Canadian boarder, or had strong ties with Europe, it'd been a whole other ballgame. For example, having an European passport.

Keep in mind the IUD not distributed in the US when you try to match.

 

[Giucy]

because of her looks...Sylvia Quinet. missing form QB Canada. Can not be UID, because this woman has blue eyes.

No info about having an IUD, and couldn't have had children actually. No European dental work either.

https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2014003874&id=6

Marthe Turcotte from Montreal Quebec, Canada
Marthe Turcotte was lastseen in Montreal on September 13, 1971. Her sister dropped her off at theJean-Talon metro station but she was never seen again. Marthe was a student innursing at Thetford cegep situated in Thetford Mines.
DOB 1953 UID birth range 1946 - 1953
Age at disappearence 19, than in 1983 estimated 31 years
No data on hair and eye colour....as far that I could find. Black and white picture, ...no records of her having a child.
Could be...but a long time between missing and finding UID

The long time can be the reason why she was not identified earlier.
Could have had a child in the meantime, but highly unlikely. Although it had happened.
However, the UID's IUD is what precludes to be her. Unless she went to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Canada, but I'm not sure it's anonymous. Confidential, yes ; anonymous, not sure.

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

By bringing people, information, forensic science and technology together, NamUs helps resolve cases.

www.namus.gov

Unvolantary missing from Hudson, Kentucky januari 23, 1980, 30years then, 33 years in 1983. No picture (not in Namus and I could'nt find on) brown hair, brown eyes. Mole on left site of neck. height 60 inches/152,4 cm, height UID = 1,58 -1,60 No DNA available in Namus.

The living in the US is a definite rule-out because of the IUD. And because of the absence of mole on the UID's neck.
This is very far-fetched actually.

 

[Bit of hope]

Sorry for replying only right now, been hyper busy !!


Her IUD was distributed in Europe and Canada, but not the US. In those days, Belgium and Netherlands were part of the EEC, including Italy (1957, when EEC was born). In 1983, the EEC was also composed of Denmark, Ireland, UK (1973) and Greece (1981). However, Spain and Portugal were not member at the time


our UID was found (they became members in 1986). Finland became a EU (European Union) in 1995 only, so 12 years later after our UID was found.
So, the countries we can work on are the EEC in those days : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:European_Union_enlargement.gif.
However, does your husband's suggestion relate to ancestry or citizenship ? Because citizenship is administrative, it doesn't necessarily relates to her physical characteristics.


You're right !



Not mentionned anywhere. It's above her left eye, which is quite unusual !!


true


If I were you, I'd widen the age estimate to 25-40 years old. If we didn't identify her, we need to widen the searching path, starting with age.
Post-mortem age estimations are often inaccurate in adults, while they are more often than not very accurate in children.


True for the blue eyes, it's a definitive rule-out.
True for her height, however, keep in mind that height in MP reports are upon declaration by family members, unless LE got the medical records. And even with medical records, it can be inaccurate if the MP has never been measured nor weighted as an adult : more often than not, the doctor asks you. So, the 6cm difference between the UID and the MP is not as problematic as it seems.
On MP reports, height and weight are more often than not inaccurate for adults.



Any WS thread link about her ?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...idy-Kaspersma-26-Kenmare-Co-Kerry-2-July-1978

 

[Bit of hope]

Sorry for replying only right now, been hyper busy !!


Her IUD was distributed in Europe and Canada, but not the US. In those days, Belgium and Netherlands were part of the EEC, including Italy (1957, when EEC was born). In 1983, the EEC was also composed of Denmark, Ireland, UK (1973) and Greece (1981). However, Spain and Portugal were not member at the time our UID was found (they became members in 1986). Finland became a EU (European Union) in 1995 only, so 12 years later after our UID was found.
So, the countries we can work on are the EEC in those days : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:European_Union_enlargement.gif.
However, does your husband's suggestion relate to ancestry or citizenship ? Because citizenship is administrative, it doesn't necessarily relates to her physical characteristics.


You're right !



Not mentionned anywhere. It's above her left eye, which is quite unusual !!


true


If I were you, I'd widen the age estimate to 25-40 years old. If we didn't identify her, we need to widen the searching path, starting with age.
Post-mortem age estimations are often inaccurate in adults, while they are more often than not very accurate in children.


True for the blue eyes, it's a definitive rule-out.
True for her height, however, keep in mind that height in MP reports are upon declaration by family members, unless LE got the medical records. And even with medical records, it can be inaccurate if the MP has never been measured nor weighted as an adult : more often than not, the doctor asks you. So, the 6cm difference between the UID and the MP is not as problematic as it seems.
On MP reports, height and weight are more often than not inaccurate for adults.



Any WS thread link about her ?

About the mole on left cheeck. It's not mentioned no, but if you look at the morque photo, and the reconstruction drawing it seems like she has a mole (or something) on her left cheeck. What do you think?

 

[Bit of hope]

Keep in mind, that all the people I put here where already ruled out by me (meaning not put here as possible matches persé) for a number of reasons. Of course everybody can look at the cases and have an opionion, I can overlook things, but I put them here so we do not have to do double work. The IUD is good to keep in mind too.

 

[Giucy]

About the mole on left cheeck. It's not mentioned no, but if you look at the morque photo, and the reconstruction drawing it seems like she has a mole (or something) on her left cheeck. What do you think?

On her left cheek, a bit too reddish for a mole. More like a scar from an insect bite than a mole.

 

[Giucy]

Had a look on the Interpol database for missing persons.

The problem with its database is that its searching is quite odd.
Usually, missing persons' databases are searched by place of disappearance. OTOH, on Interpol's, you have to search by nationality. On the results', you cannot find the place of disappearance as you would on any other MP's database.

So, if you want to find a Canadian person who went missing in Israel, you have to choose "Canada".
If you choose "Israel", search results will display only people of Israeli citizenship. So, you won't find your Canadian MP.


So, if we want to have a bit of success with Interpol's database, we have to think about citizenship, not about ancestry.
Interpol's database doesn't account for race either.


My strong opinion is that we have to think about citizenship for identifying our UID. Citizenship is administrative and might not relate to physical characteristics.
I am of French citizenship, but some people think I am of Middle-Eastern country when they glance at me. It couldn't be further from the truth !! (some people completely forget that Italian is not my mother tongue when I discuss with them either fwiw. A friend also thought I was of Italian citizenship : nope ! I digress, I digress, but you see the gist of it)


It might explain why you were unsuccessful with Interpol's database. If you search with "place of disappearance", you'll have no meaningful clue with Interpol.

So, let restart with Interpol's database focusing on citizenship and let see !

 

[Bit of hope]

Had a look on the Interpol database for missing persons.

The problem with its database is that its searching is quite odd.
Usually, missing persons' databases are searched by place of disappearance. OTOH, on Interpol's, you have to search by nationality. On the results', you cannot find the place of disappearance as you would on any other MP's database.


So, if you want to find a Canadian person who went missing in Israel, you have to choose "Canada".
If you choose "Israel", search results will display only people of Israeli citizenship. So, you won't find your Canadian MP.


So, if we want to have a bit of success with Interpol's database, we have to think about citizenship, not about ancestry.
Interpol's database doesn't account for race either.


My strong opinion is that we have to think about citizenship for identifying our UID. Citizenship is administrative and might not relate to physical characteristics.
I am of French citizenship, but some people think I am of Middle-Eastern country when they glance at me. It couldn't be further from the truth !! (some people completely forget that Italian is not my mother tongue when I discuss with them either fwiw. A friend also thought I was of Italian citizenship : nope ! I digress, I digress, but you see the gist of it)


It might explain why you were unsuccessful with Interpol's database. If you search with "place of disappearance", you'll have no meaningful clue with Interpol.

So, let restart with Interpol's database focusing on citizenship and let see !

The Interpol site is very annoying...hahaha...en not every missing person is on it. That's why I don't use it a lot.