Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #1 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[i.b.nora]

One recent article said: "Steve Kuzma, the building manager at 127B Prince St. since 1977, didn't remember Mr. Miller and had only vague memories of Etan. He said FBI agents in recent weeks came to the building three times to look at the basement, which he described as "pretty clean." On the third visit, the agents brought a dog."

So, the building manager has been with the building since 1977? What was he doing that day?

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

So.....who else is thinking LE isn't going to find anything in the basement of 127B Prince Street 10012, or am I just the defeatist type? Will this turn out to be a great big nothing? God, I hope not. Positive sorts, send this case some good vibrations!

You know - I remember reading awhile back that states make money from the missing. Each year a report is filed - how many missing persons. Then a budget is proposed based on the number of missing person cases.
In my state - they inflated the numbers of the missing person statistics.
They inclucded names more than once. Names that have been recovered as still missing. I cannot remember all tactics used - I read the article last year. This came to mind last night when I was reading that Vanity Fair article written in 1991. One sentence - People working Etan case making much money in overtime. Also it was stated that at that time - 1991 - millions had already been spent on Etan's case. LE would state sadly they believe Etan will not be found alive. But then pursue living children - retrieving their fingerprints then DNA - convinced they were Etan. They have been making computer models of what Etan would look like - probably each year that goes by. As far as I know - none have been released to public. {I have yet to see one}. Highly unusual - other cases show us these updated models. I hope LE really is wanting to find Etan. I would hate to think they know what happened - and are waiting for an opportunity to publicy solve the case. Or they found Etan years ago and placed him in witness protection or something - and that agency told no one. The Vanity Fair article states paperwork {DD-5 maybe - sorry going on memory here} which by policy was to be filed - were not filed.

Every missing child case is not handled in this way. Etan's case seems as though it could have been solved - we only know what media reports. If millions were expended to find anyone - anything - they would find it.

I cannot accept that a boy older than me is forever 6 - and 33 years have passed. I know what it is like to long for answers. To wish to go back. Your whole being screams from inside - constantly. You can hear it within yourself. Yet no one else hears. How are you - is a question that makes your heart drop to your feet. Every single time someone asks. To feel guilt - when you have done nothing wrong - makes life unlivable. Just existing until - until what is a very good question.

 

[carole]

One recent article said: "Steve Kuzma, the building manager at 127B Prince St. since 1977, didn't remember Mr. Miller and had only vague memories of Etan. He said FBI agents in recent weeks came to the building three times to look at the basement, which he described as "pretty clean." On the third visit, the agents brought a dog."

So, the building manager has been with the building since 1977? What was he doing that day?

BBM

I would assume the building manager has been checked out before, in 1979 and recently. He might have managed several buildings and was not at the Prince St. building that day.

Of course, we really don't know who may be on LE's short list for making Etan disappear, could be people we've never heard of.

It was Miller, NOT the building manager, who removed part of the concrete basement floor and filled that hole with new concrete in the wake of Etan's disappearance.

 

[officer'swife 2010]

I would never ever want to experience anything that these parents go through ESP not knowing what happened. Look at Beth Holloway she looks wore down too almost lifeless it's very sad

 

[wfgodot]

One recent article said: "Steve Kuzma, the building manager at 127B Prince St. since 1977, didn't remember Mr. Miller and had only vague memories of Etan. He said FBI agents in recent weeks came to the building three times to look at the basement, which he described as "pretty clean." On the third visit, the agents brought a dog."

So, the building manager has been with the building since 1977? What was he doing that day?

I did find it odd he didn't remember Mr Miller and had the vague memories re: Etan. But it's a seven-story building with many tenants and 33 years after the fact. Surely he at least remembers, if not Etan specifically, the Patz case. One would think that an event so infamous would help one retain memories of a six year old boy who famously went missing.

 

[i.b.nora]

Well, it seems, that not only did Kuzma manage the building, he also lived in the building.

The National Post

"Considered unsolvable, the case was closed and Patz declared dead. But two years back, Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance reopened the files at the request of the boy’s parents.

Recently, police brought cadaver dogs, trained to sniff the minutest traces of dead bodies, to the basement. Steve Kuzma, who has for years managed maintenance in the building where the basement is located, said agents arrived about a week ago.

“They showed no sign of what the dogs sniffed. There were two agents and a handler. They let the dog go and it went sniffing, but I didn’t see anything,” he said, calling the revelation that he may have been living over a murder scene “pretty scary.”

“It’s a creepy thing,” he said, shaking his head."

 

[wfgodot]

Here's this tale again, the story broken first by the tabloid Post and now taking its place in the pages of the prestigious Times. Score one for the tabs - on stories of this nature they very often clobber the more staid institutions like "The Nation's Paper of Record." Because crime has always been a tabloid's bread and butter.

---
The basement was a workshop for a handyman who is facing fresh scrutiny after investigators examined a claim by his ex-wife that he had raped a 10-year-old girl in subsequent years, according to a person briefed on the case.
---

lengthy article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/nyregion/rape-accusation-led-to-focus-of-etan-patz-search.html

Original Post post (with link):

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - SPOTLIGHT CASE NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979

 

[AnaTeresa]

I did find it odd he didn't remember Mr Miller and had the vague memories re: Etan. But it's a seven-story building with many tenants and 33 years after the fact. Surely he at least remembers, if not Etan specifically, the Patz case. One would think that an event so infamous would help one retain memories of a six year old boy who famously went missing.

I find that odd as well. This didn't leave an impression on you at all?

As for Miller laying the floor, I think I read he was doing renovations of some sort? Could be someone knew he'd be redoing the floor and took advantage of it. If Etan is found in the basement, I think it's still very open to sleuthing how he came to be there.

 

[Donjeta]

How old is he? If he is getting up there in age he might have more general memory trouble.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about doing everything but bringing marching band. I read some article - I will try to find - it was in strange format. Quietly LE went into an old basement where Ramos once lived. Ah - found the article -
Dated Friday JUNE 16. 2000

Yesterday, working with some urgency but quietly so as to raise no false hopes of a breakthrough in the case, a dozen police officers and detectives spent eight hours in the dark, filthy basement of a tenement at 234 East Fourth Street on the Lower East Side, where Mr. Ramos was living on May 25, 1979, the day Etan vanished a mile away.

No one expected to find a body or even fragments of one after so many years. In the boiler room, however, the police broke up a rusted, unused 1939 coal-fired furnace and hauled it out in chunks, and they carried away a dozen blue plastic barrels of ash and dirt shoveled up from the basement floor. None of the officers at the scene would comment on what they were up to.

Four police vehicles -- a truck, a van, a patrol car and an unmarked supervisor's car -- drew up about 8 a.m. outside the six-story red-brick building between Avenues A and B, and a dozen officers, many wearing heavy work gloves and carrying shovels, picks, hammers and other equipment, went into the basement, a warren of small rooms.

By midafternoon, the officers began rolling out barrels of ash and dirt, and chunks of rusted iron that were pieces of the old coal-fired boiler, unused since a new boiler was installed in 1998, the inspector said.

Wanted to comment Ramos wake of devastation wherever he goes. The babysitter and son. Kids under the tunnels. The Patz Family. The Rainbow Communities. Even the informants. One wanted out after sharing cell with Ramos - informant feared the insanity was contagious. Another was pulled out after Ramos exclaimed the dude was informant - and the 2 physically fought.

http://s10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t2478.htm

 

[wfgodot]

Lou Braga ‏ @Photog4NY
Investigators have found a piece of drywall w/ stain of interest.

Braga's little Twitter write-up says he is a WNBC4-TV New York news photographer. He tweeted the above five minutes ago.

 

[epiphany]

They [OM's ex-wife's claim about a similar incident concerning a relative] surfaced in a affidavit in support of a search warrant for the basement that was presented in recent days to a State Supreme Court justice in Manhattann...

The affidavit was prepared by prosecutors, based on information provided by F.B.I. agents and police detectives, said several people briefed on the case, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation was continuing. It was sworn to by Jed Salter, an F.B.I. special agent, one of them said.

After recently interviewing Mr. Miller’s ex-wife, F.B.I. agents could not find the girl she said had been attacked, in an effort to corroborate the claim that she had been raped in her home in New Jersey in the mid-1980s.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/nyregion/rape-accusation-led-to-focus-of-etan-patz-search.html

Interesting...FBI could not locate the girl, but the ex's accusation is in the affidavit to support the search of the basement.

I believe human remains will be found and identified.

 

[helpful]

I find that odd as well. This didn't leave an impression on you at all?

As for Miller laying the floor, I think I read he was doing renovations of some sort? Could be someone knew he'd be redoing the floor and took advantage of it. If Etan is found in the basement, I think it's still very open to sleuthing how he came to be there.

It's hard to say, but he might have meant that he doesn't really have specific memories of Etan independent of the disappearance. I could understand this, actually. After all, it has been 33 years and I think it is fair to assume that his interactions with Etan were limited to seeing him around the neighborhood and stuff. Think about your recollections of people you knew years ago but weren't especially close to - they're likely pretty vague. It's hard to remember specific things.

I just don't see anyone living on that block in 1979 being unaware of the intense media attention surrounding the case.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

How old is he? If he is getting up there in age he might have more general memory trouble.

Finally - an article with his age. 78.

Stephen Kuzma, 78, the manager of the building on Prince Street, said he had lived on the fourth floor since the 1970s and recalled Mr. Miller pouring cement for a new bathroom on his floor as well as doing work in the basement. But he did not remember when that work was done. “He was a nice fellow,” Mr. Kuzma said of Mr. Miller, who now lives in Brooklyn, adding that he could not recall seeing Mr. Miller with any children and that he had never seen Etan.

http://dmnewsi.com/

 

[epiphany]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...ch-Handyman-Person-of-Interest-148372705.html

Investigators have also questioned a second person, JS, in connection with the re-examination of evidence. NBC New York has learned that on the morning Patz disappeared in 1979, JS was observed at the building where police are searching now, and also worked with Miller. Investigators would not elaborate on why they met with JS.

 

[Mjskit]

Was this basement property OWNED by Miller? Would a person have to have a building permit to make renovations? This is a major city, come on now, even my little town required permits and inspections.

 

[amandab]

From Twitter:

WPIX ‏ @WPIX
FBI: Etan Patz Probe Being Done At Other Locations As Well As Soho

 

[epiphany]

Re-posting from yesterday:

“He [OM] said he wasn’t there; he had some sort of alibi, and it sort of checked out,” said the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation was continuing. That alibi was supported in part by a coworker, the person said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/n...ince-street-basement-and-an-old-handyman.html

 

[wfgodot]

---
t was while investigators were taking apart the basement floor and walls that they found a "stain of interest" on a drywall, according to law enforcement sources. Officers from the NYPD Emergency Services Unit used a chainsaw to cut out a piece of the wall, which is being preserved for analysis at the FBI Laboratory in Virginia. It's not clear how significant it is.
---

also....

Investigators have also questioned a second person, Jesse Snell, in connection with the re-examination of evidence. NBC New York has learned that on the morning Patz disappeared in 1979, Snell was observed at the building where police are searching now, and also worked with Miller. Investigators would not elaborate on why they met with Snell.
---

much more here: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...ch-Handyman-Person-of-Interest-148372705.html

 

[Kat]

To be honest, I'm extremely cautious in any hope that Etan is in the basement.

But, I think this is good work they are doing. Using current forensic techniques to work this case.

Following up on all leads. Many have said that the basement should have been dug up back in '79, but I'm not sure it could have been. I don't know what the laws were in '79 governing getting a search warrant in order to dig up the concrete. Just this week we had a woman who had been missing decades discovered under concrete under the shed in her husband's backyard. She had been missing since the 90's. It can be very difficult to obtain search warrants and such in certain cities and states. Who knows?

But I am heartened by the fact that LE and FBI are going back over this case with a fine tooth comb.

If Etan isn't in that basement or any forensic evidence of him ever being in that basement at least they can rule that out hopefully and move forward in figuring out where he might be?

My first instinct when a child goes missing is assumed murdered and not found is that they are in the landfill, I hope that didn't happen to Etan.

JMHO.