Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #1 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[DevilsPlayThing]

Still hoping for resolution in our lifetime. Parents of Etan lifetime. Remembering once again things may be revealed when least expected.

 

[i.b.nora]

Reuters is great for International. But, they are expanding some, and not necessarily for the better. They are beefing up in the USA, and while the articles are welcome, their 'online' polls totally suck. ALL IMO.

 

[thefragile7393]

Reuters reports:

Investigators end search for New York boy missing since 1979

"'The search in the Patz location has concluded and there was nothing conclusive found,' said the law enforcement source, who declined to be identified because of the sensitive nature of the investigation."

Last report i saw stated they had only dug up 50% of the basement and were going to test the luminol areas. Something tells me Reuters has it wrong.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[wfgodot]

Still no other source verifying the Reuters report (well, at least that I can find online, that is).

 

[epiphany]

Wow! It used to be called "fact checking."

 

[Cancan]

Gotta be honest, I would go with the Post and the Daily News in this story. They will be closest to the source.

 

[Another New Yorker]

WFGODot: "I love Reuters, but all other sources I've checked still have the "will resume Monday" thing up."

And, since there is not a consensus on whether this search has ended, I will proceed with my informative [?] screed...

You-all don't know me. I encountered this site 3 days ago, when searching for information about these events, and signed up because it seemed I might be able to clarify a few incorrect assumptions here and there.

In no particular order:

No the building is not cast iron, it is brick, and I believe that it has little or no steel framework - ie: it is a nearly pure brick building.

Also, an earlier poster said it was built in 1900. This is what Zillow says, but their information is not always correct.
I have no specific knowledge of its history, but judging by its style, I believe it was constructed closer to 1890, maybe as early as the late 1880s.

Regarding an earlier post about the unlikelihood of internal modifications having been done without a building permit, I would point out that even now, the residential neighborhoods of Queens are full of one-family houses whose basements are divided into hideous warrens, in which over fifty illegal immigrants may live, sleeping in triple-decker bunk beds and sleeping in shifts, and it is news on the rare occasions when these are discovered.
Back in the '70s, there was far less law in NYC than there is now, and nobody would have even considered getting a building permit for anything that was not blatantly obvious and on street level, and even in a case like that, a routine bribe would make any problem go away. I'm sure CityLady could back me up on this if there are any doubts.

Most importantly, I think that it may be helpful to clear up some assumptions about the basement itself.
The basement under discussion is not a single big space, like the basement of a house.
If you look at an arial view of the building, such as on Google Maps, you will see that it is shaped like an "L." With the map in the standard "North-up" orientation, the front of the building, along Prince Street, will be at the bottom of the map, and Wooster Street will be along its right (East) side. The building has a silver-colored roof.
If you look at it, you will see that it is actually shaped like an "L" that has been rotated 180° an is sitting on its head. The head of the "L" is the front of the building on Prince Street, while the foot is projecting from the building's left (West) side at the top (north) side of the map. So, looking at the building from the front, on Prince Street, it goes straight back, and then left. You will also notice a small dark square just left (West) of the foot of the "L." That is a courtyard. You will also notice a rectangular chimney on the side facing Wooster Street, at the top (North) of the map. The furnace is in the basement directly below this chimney.

The configuration of the building is important because it helps the reader understand how the basement is put together.
The entrance to the basement is via a set of steep outdoor stairs with a small wrought iron fence around them, which juts out into the sidewalk.
At the foot of these stairs is a door, which opens into a small vestibule.
If you proceed straight ahead, you will pass through another door, into the long room where once there was a wood shop, and later was storage, and where the police are now (or were just?) digging, which ultimately goes back all the way to the furnace.
If, instead, you take a hard left after entering the basement, you proceed about ten feet, past a "sidewalk vault" on your left, and then must turn right (facing the rear of the building) and follow a very long, narrow, and somewhat twisting hallway.
This hallway is truly impressive, and feels as though you are passing through the bowels of the earth. If the area being searched is 67 feet long, then this hallway must be about 60 feet long. It runs parallel to the searched area, nearly to the back wall of the building, at which point it passes through another door, transitions to the left, and opens on the basement of the foot of the "L", which is about two steps lower than the rest of the basement, and which has an ancient floor made of huge slabs that appear to be slate.
This is the part of the basement where the children had their play group, and where, at other times, drawing classes and art shows were held. It has a storage closet and a small kitchenette and bathroom. It has a door that opens onto the small courtyard. Cell phone service disappears there. It is completely unrelated to the "work space" part of the basement, and so any children in the play group would not have been exposed to any machinery or other hazards. It is also essentially worthless as a commercial (too far from the street) or a living (too damp) space, and so it would make perfect sense that the building's owners would choose to donate or rent it to a community organization.
The location and characteristics of the space, while they may make it unsuitable for many common uses, make it excellent as a play space, because the courtyard is secure, and any wayward child attempting to escape down the hallway could be recaptured long before reaching the busy street.

This layout could also make the area ideal for a sexual predator who was familiar with it to do something nefarious, as any noises from the workshop space would be unlikely to be heard, even if the play group were in session next door at the same time.

 

[epiphany]

NY 1: Another stain found...will be back Monday morning...Cy Vance: ...officials will not give up on this case

-Do not know if being looped from an earlier report.

 

[wfgodot]

WFGODot:
Also, an earlier poster said it was built in 1900. This is what Zillow says, but their information is not always correct.
I have no specific knowledge of its history, but judging by its style, I believe it was constructed closer to 1890, maybe as early as the late 1880s.

I got my info on the "1900" from the trulia.com "find a home" site; not sure where their estimate/guesstimate comes from.

 

[wfgodot]

from newyorkcbslocal.com, published online 18 minutes ago:

Sources told CBS 2 that no skeletal or dental remains have been found and that the search will continue on Monday.

FBI spokesman Jim Margolin told CBS 2′s Ann Mercogliano that the search is not over yet.

“Fundamentally, it’s about going through dirt, sifting, going carefully, and looking for evidence. We’ll be done when we’re done,” he said.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04...-basement-search-for-etan-patz-will-continue/

17 minutes ago, published in San Antonio Express-News:

NEW YORK (CNN) -
The search for Etan Patz, a 6-year-old New York boy who disappeared more than three decades ago, is expected to resume on Monday after being suspended for "operational reasons," an FBI spokesman said.

AP curiously silent thus far. As of an hour ago they were still going with the "on Monday" thing.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Regarding an earlier post about the unlikelihood of internal modifications having been done without a building permit, I would point out that even now, the residential neighborhoods of Queens are full of one-family houses whose basements are divided into hideous warrens, in which over fifty illegal immigrants may live, sleeping in triple-decker bunk beds and sleeping in shifts, and it is news on the rare occasions when these are discovered.
Back in the '70s, there was far less law in NYC than there is now, and nobody would have even considered getting a building permit for anything that was not blatantly obvious and on street level, and even in a case like that, a routine bribe would make any problem go away. .

Exactly. Some {perhaps many} homes will have the basement converted into an apartment - and rented out. No permits were sought in these instances - and people call these basements home. They try to catch people for erecting structures with no building permits by aerial photos - there is a huge fine and cities make revenue. Of course this only applies to outdoor structures - not work done within a home or building.

 

[i.b.nora]

What is a sidewalk vault?

 

[wfgodot]

What is a sidewalk vault?

A space below a sidewalk directly adjacent to a building, often covered with a hatch that can be lifted to allow access to the basement of the building via steps down; often used for storage.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sidewalk-vault-1

 

[wfgodot]

Interesting NYT article just up:

1979 Missing Child Case in SoHo, All but Closed, Was Revived by a New Agent

More than five years ago, well before investigators descended on a basement in SoHo in a search for evidence in the disappearance of Etan Patz, the decades-old case of the missing child was at a dead end.

The F.B.I. agent who had the case, Michael Ferrandino, had just been promoted to head the bank robbery squad, and his cases needed to be reassigned. The Patz case, with no real progress in years, was at risk of being closed. Instead, Agent Ferrandino gave the case to a relatively junior agent, Thomas MacDonald, with the instructions, “See what you can do with it.”
---
“He took to heart that this little boy has been missing for so long and his family doesn’t know what happened,” said the official, adding that Agent MacDonald, who came from a big family and has four children of his own, wanted to bring the Patzes “some measure of peace.”
---

the lengthy rest of it at link above

 

[Another New Yorker]

From the same article (just posted):

“The case is at a precarious juncture, as the digging ended its fourth day on Sunday, with investigators expected to begin again at 8 a.m. on Monday.”

Guess we can't believe everything we read in the papers...

 

[wfgodot]

I wonder if calling off the rest of today's search due to "operational matters" was code for "agencies involved are disagreeing on continuing the search." The FBI has been really vocally gung-ho bout it; NYPD has been more restrained. Reuters could have a source from one agency or the other and reported what that source said before a final decision was made.

 

[epiphany]

“Given that recent information, he skyrocketed to the top of the list,” a law enforcement official said about how agents came to focus on Mr. Miller.

During one interview, agents...while he looked through a book of images of children, two law enforcement officials said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/n...-all-but-closed-was-revived-by-new-agent.html

 

[Another New Yorker]

I wonder if calling off the rest of today's search due to "operational matters" was code for "agencies involved are disagreeing on continuing the search." The FBI has been really vocally gung-ho bout it; NYPD has been more restrained. Reuters could have a source from one agency or the other and reported what that source said before a final decision was made.

It's certainly possible. And it wouldn't be the first time the NYPD and the FBI had trouble "playing nice" with each other.

Don't forget, though, that that's a really wet basement, and they're having a monsoon in NYC tonight, and with the concrete "skin" peeled off the dirt floor and sitting in a dumpster, the water is probably just rising up, making the excavation like digging in a lake.

 

[wfgodot]

Chicago Trib now has a revised article up, covering both sides of the issue:

---
"The search in the Patz location has concluded and there was
nothing conclusive found," the source said. "A stain on the wall
is being tested (in a laboratory) but it's inconclusive that's about.
The digging has been done. There were no bones orobvious human
remains found."
----
However, an FBI spokesman insisted a team would be back at
the site in the trendy Manhattan neighborhood of SoHo on Monday.

"The search is going to continue, and we're not done, and
we'll be back out there tomorrow," said Peter Donald, an FBI
spokesman.
---

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-r...te-2l2e8fm1yn-20120422,0,1946528.story?page=1

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Interesting NYT article just up:

1979 Missing Child Case in SoHo, All but Closed, Was Revived by a New Agent

the lengthy rest of it at link above

According to the article Agent Thomas MacDonald was a relatively junior agent over 5 years ago. He has since transferred to Maine and I found an article from a case he worked in Maine last year. From New York City to Maine - is this a disciplinary action type thing. Or agents just transfer often ?