Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #10

[Abigail]

Noticed a clarification on the hair dye, at the above blog link. "She showered and applied a shampoo in hair rinse. (did not color her hair, nor dye it as media incorrectly reported.) "

I was amused by the statement in the blog "quick trip" to the mall. It's not like the mall was a couple miles away. It takes 3 hours roundtrip!!

 

[Abigail]

was Mr. Mahoney the one who first reported on the hair color stuff? I cannot recall...

I am pretty sure that he will have more in his notes (or whatever reporter got this info) about what was said and when.

I am sure LE is five steps ahead on this.:twocents:

I believe that wording something like "may have changed hair color or style" was in the original missing person report filed with sherriff, and I think they had it on their site. It certainly came out in the first media reporting -- which I believe was on Dec. 14, but can't remember which paper.

(edited to add)
OK, found it -- http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/authorities_say_missing_woman.html

She was driving a maroon 2006 Chrysler Town and Country minivan with a New York license plate of EFA1962.

Deputies said Ramsaran may have changed her hair color and style before she left.


But this whole thing about "may have changed hair color or style" just seems to me was put out there to obscure the search.

Just like the car was described as "maroon" when it was red.

After all, as mentioned previously, even if the media got it wrong, THAT'S what was put on the flyers.

 

[Abigail]

In thinking about this case...

GR stated that she left at approximately 10:30 AM in the morning.

I've contemplated on the traffic, as well as whether or not she left earlier than that 10:30 time slot, to make it to the mall.

From Destiny USA's website, their hours are:

Monday-Saturday: 10am-9:30pm
Sunday: 11am-6pm

There is a disclaimer included, stating:

"Restaurant and Entertainment venue hours vary. Please check individual venues for more detail."

Browsing among the many stores there on their shopping page; The majority of the stores tend to open in conjunction with the hours of the mall itself (i.e. 10:00 AM).

The only ones that seem to open at an earlier time are some of the food chains (Dunkin Donuts and Panera Bread [7:00 AM], Subway [7:30 AM], Starbucks and Arby's [8:00 AM]), and two salons (Mastercuts and Regis Salons [both of which open at 9:00 AM]).

I looked even further on their site and located a news section, with an entry entitled "Destiny USA Announces Extended Holiday Hours and Christmas Day Openings" from December 14th, three days after Jennifer disappeared, which announced the hours for the Christmas shopping season.

Snipped:
"Destiny USA’s General Holiday hours* will continue to be extended over the next week with hours Sunday December, 16th – Sunday, December 23rd 8:00am-11:00pm and Christmas Eve hours 7:00am-5:00pm.

*Destiny USA’s general hours do not include department stores, entertainment venues or restaurants. See venues for extended hours."

The Christmas shopping hours weren't set to start until December 16th (the day that her van was found).

My questions in regards to the case in correlation to this information:

1. Being that Destiny USA is the sixth largest shopping center in the United States, and the largest in the state of New York... then assuming that Jennifer had planned to go there (in the middle of the week and unaccompanied)... would she have had a specific store in mind, in order to get in, get out, and head back home?

2. Is it possible that she actually left earlier, so as to be there as soon as the mall opened at 10:00 AM (also possibly so she could get a fairly good parking space and wouldn't have to walk a long distance), to get back home as soon as possible, as opposed to her leaving from the house at 10:30 AM?

3. Is it possible that she may have taken a different route to Syracuse (as opposed to 23) at an earlier time, wasn't sure if the Christmas hours had started yet and went to a local store instead, or perhaps forgot something, and returned home?

4. Did traffic cameras capture her van being driven on SR-23 at all, in the approximate 10:30-11:00 AM range?

In regards to the "may have dyed her hair" statement...

5a. Assuming GR is THE culprit... could the "may have dyed her hair" been emphasized in an effort to throw off LE?

Following up on five, and also assuming the possibility of a possible accomplice (if Jennifer POSSIBLY returned home at a "compromising and unexpected time")...

5b. Assuming GR is A culprit/co-conspirator... Is it possible that the "may have dyed her hair" statement was something to throw off locals and neighbors in the event they had seen a POSSIBLE accomplice of GR's behind the wheel of Jennifer's van on the day of her disappearance, whose hair color differed in appearance from that of Jennifer's normal hair color?

In the initial statement of her disappearance, there was no indication of Jennifer's normal hair color.

:waitasec:

Just something to consider

The reasonable time to have left for the mall would be 8:30 AM. That way, she would approach Syracuse at around 9:30 (avoiding morning rush hour traffic), and then arrive at the mall around 10 AM when it would open.

However, it is her husband that states that she kissed him on the cheek and left at around 10:30 to 10:45. He seems pretty definite about the time.

She had at least TWO stores to go to. She needed to get a dress for her daughter's Christmas program, and also get a Christmas gift for her husband. Destiny Mall is pretty huge -- it would take some time just to walk from one store to another. So...if the first store didn't have a dress that she liked for her daughter (and that's usually been my experience with a teenage daughter), she'd probably have gone to two or three stores. Same with the Christmas gift for the husband, unless she had a specific item in mind and already knew exactly where to go get it.

But...I can't imagine driving 3 hours round trip to go to one of the best shopping malls in the country, and only looking for two things. It was 2 weeks before Christmas, and if Jenn wanted to do any shopping other than at the local Walmart, this was the big opportunity. This whole 10:30 leave time is just fishy to me, at best.

Especially since POB informed us that she was up at 6:30 (on her game for a few minutes). What the heck did she do during that 4 hours at home?

Or what the heck was done to her?

 

[yupikgirl]

As a mom of a two girls and a big shopper I would think nothing of going to a mall 2 hours away often. I however would have left earlier so I would get there when it opened. I did this often when I lived in Columbia and wanted to go shopping in Charlotte. On mapquest it's only 60 miles, but depending on traffic it could take more than an hour so I would leave as early as I could so i would be there when it opened. As far as the dress my thoughts have been maybe (if its true that's what she was supposed to be shopping for) that she knew exactly which dress and that her local "insert whatever store" didnt have the daughters size so she was going to pick it up for her at the other location. I have done this many times with my daughter. Taken her to a local mall and she has picked out a dress/shirt/shorts whatever at justice and then they wouldn't have her size in all of it. I would get what she needed at a different mall when she was in school now that I knew what size.

Anyway if the story about her going to get the dress is true (I assume the daughter would be confirming this to police) then I can see going for just a couple things since it was for a special occasion like her concert. My husband is in the military and we often live where I would travel to "better" malls/shopping centers quite often for even another target on a weekly basis and would think nothing of it....now you know more than you need about me LOL.

That's my long way of saying I do think it is totally possible the story of intending to go to the mall is true and she very well could have forgotten something and came back or never made it out of the house to leave for the mall at all.

 

[Abigail]

She was up by 6:30 -- on her game.

The kids would have been out the door by around 7:30.

That leaves 3 hours.

She didn't play on her game again.

What was she doing during those 3 hours besides the 30 minutes or so it would take to shower, wash her hair, and apply hair rinse?

Why diddle dawdle around all morning?? Why not head out to the mall?

IMO, she DID leave in the van at 10:30, but she wasn't driving. I believe that time was given to LE just in case the neighbors saw the red van pulling out and heading down the road at that time.

 

[yupikgirl]

She was up by 6:30 -- on her game.

The kids would have been out the door by around 7:30.

That leaves 3 hours.

She didn't play on her game again.

What was she doing during those 3 hours besides the 30 minutes or so it would take to shower, wash her hair, and apply hair rinse?

Why diddle dawdle around all morning?? Why not head out to the mall?

IMO, she DID leave in the van at 10:30, but she wasn't driving. I believe that time was given to LE just in case the neighbors saw the red van pulling out and heading down the road at that time.

I agree. Leaving so late for the shopping trip doesn't make sense!

The only way I can make it make sense is GR working from home and getting the kids, but his worry at 5 doesn't line up with that since if she really did leave so late why expect her back so soon. I would totally leave later of my hubby was home and able to get my kids. He however wouldn't expect me back by 5 if going that far unless we had very specific plans. Certainly wouldn't be reporting me missing at 8:30 before driving the entire route to the mall and checking to see if I had been in an accident. He would assume my phone had died and I wasn't able to use my car charger (this is what he told me when i gave him the scenario which IMO is a logical thought process ), but he would worry maybe there was an accident because I have been known to purchase things like car chargers more than once while out if I had forgotten mine :blushing:

I forgot to say I also think the ride home from the Y has to do with a cover up as well or a reason to be seen with the tryst other than trysting.

 

[Abigail]

Sorry to quote myself but now I'm thinking more....if now it is admittedly just a rinse then why did anyone (GR) bother mentioning it in the first place?

"She showered and applied a shampoo in hair rinse. (did not color her hair, nor dye it as media incorrectly reported.)"
http://jenniferramsaran.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_27.html

The information that was released continues to make me want to bash my head into a wall...but that topic has been beaten to death, so I won't rehash. Just venting my frustration :furious:

Indeed. Just another one of those "non-essentials" that was either completely useless in finding her (like the kind of dressing she likes on her salad), or might even lead people astray (she changed her hair?? was she going in hiding??)

Just like important information that was omitted.

 

[Abigail]

As a mom of a two girls and a big shopper I would think nothing of going to a mall 2 hours away often. I however would have left earlier so I would get there when it opened. I did this often when I lived in Columbia and wanted to go shopping in Charlotte. On mapquest it's only 60 miles, but depending on traffic it could take more than an hour so I would leave as early as I could so i would be there when it opened. As far as the dress my thoughts have been maybe (if its true that's what she was supposed to be shopping for) that she knew exactly which dress and that her local "insert whatever store" didnt have the daughters size so she was going to pick it up for her at the other location. I have done this many times with my daughter. Taken her to a local mall and she has picked out a dress/shirt/shorts whatever at justice and then they wouldn't have her size in all of it. I would get what she needed at a different mall when she was in school now that I knew what size.

(respectfully snipped)

That's good reasoning, except there AREN'T any local chain stores (except the Super Walmart in Norwich). There is no mall. You have to go down to Vestal/Johnson City/Binghamton or to over to Cortland or to Oneonta (and personally, I wouldn't go to either of the latter for serious shopping) -- and they are all 45 minutes to an hour away.

It makes perfect sense that Jennifer would head over to Destiny USA about 7 times a year. It doesn't make sense that, seeing as there's NO good shopping in Chenango County, she would make a 3 hour roundtrip to Destiny only 2 weeks before Christmas and not leave earlier than she did.

 

[BearAngel]

I feel sad today...for in truth...almost ever piece of info that has been given to us online...seems to have either no relevance...or it has been stated to mislead us. While I can understand discrepancies, this has been a real setback effort.
We can rehash every singe statement over and over...but it is reasonable to assume that almost every initial statement was incorrect in some way...

We need to almost look at each statement, and keep it in mind, and start looking at new ideas....the only thing that I truly know, is that our beautiful young mother is deceased...and the last person known to see her...is her spouse...who has impeded this investigation from the start...:facepalm:

 

[Abigail]

Completely OT folks, but just came across this site where Jenn posted.

Just gives a little more of a picture of who Jenn was. In her own words.

And some pictures of her craftwork. She was so proud of it. Unfortunately it was removed from her FB.

http://www.craftsy.com/user/216481

http://pinterest.com/d00rst0p/my-knits/

 

[yupikgirl]

Oh Abigail I see. I grew up in NY, but a different area (Saratoga Springs). I was just trying to see how the dress fit in without bringing the daughter since her plan to do that could be easily verified by a 13 year old. Maybe she took her shopping Saturday or Sunday to a closer mall and they didn't have what she needed so she planned to head to the bigger mall when she had more time. Or maybe her daughter was easy to shop for....I could buy something I know my daughter would like, but would likely have to buy two sizes if she wasn't with me and return one later. Especially if shopping was far away making exchanges more difficult.

But yea all that said....I have agreed from the start leaving at 10:30 doesn't make sense! I'm just thinking there was some truth to the dress because 13 isn't young enough that she wouldn't know about it.

 

[SouthAussie]

RSBM

But yea all that said....I have agreed from the start leaving at 10:30 doesn't make sense! I'm just thinking there was some truth to the dress because 13 isn't young enough that she wouldn't know about it.

BBM: As much as I hate to say this, and as horrible as it seems ... there is always the possibility that the daughter did not know about any dress shopping, and was told later that 'her mum wanted to surprise her with a new dress, so her mum didn't tell her about her plan to go shopping that day'.

GR could have been grasping for a reason to say why Jen went shopping alone that day.

 

[nursebeeme]

I believe that wording something like "may have changed hair color or style" was in the original missing person report filed with sherriff, and I think they had it on their site. It certainly came out in the first media reporting -- which I believe was on Dec. 14, but can't remember which paper.

(edited to add)
OK, found it -- http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/authorities_say_missing_woman.html

She was driving a maroon 2006 Chrysler Town and Country minivan with a New York license plate of EFA1962.

Deputies said Ramsaran may have changed her hair color and style before she left.


But this whole thing about "may have changed hair color or style" just seems to me was put out there to obscure the search.

Just like the car was described as "maroon" when it was red.

After all, as mentioned previously, even if the media got it wrong, THAT'S what was put on the flyers.

what I meant was the reporter may have more insight into the comment

 

[Abigail]

I feel sad today...for in truth...almost ever piece of info that has been given to us online...seems to have either no relevance...or it has been stated to mislead us. While I can understand discrepancies, this has been a real setback effort.
We can rehash every singe statement over and over...but it is reasonable to assume that almost every initial statement was incorrect in some way...

We need to almost look at each statement, and keep it in mind, and start looking at new ideas....the only thing that I truly know, is that our beautiful young mother is deceased...and the last person known to see her...is her spouse...who has impeded this investigation from the start...:facepalm:

I know...it's just so sad. I can't find any logical explanation why a husband who was truly desperately searching for his wife would work so hard to impede an investigation.


Feeling sad right now as I browse through things that Jenn pinned just 25 weeks ago -- in September -- when she was supposed to have changed so much that her kids didn't miss her. :furious: She's pinned new (and old) knitting projects, some really yummy recipes with photos (oh, but she hadn't been cooking recently -- isn't that what we heard???), some projects she was planning to do...

http://pinterest.com/d00rst0p/

 

[Abigail]

How Jennifer described her family in 2007 (6 years ago)

I'm a mother of 5.... 3 kids, one husband and his CAT!

Least thats what I used to say before daddy decided to get the children rabbits.

Nope couldn't just get one... had to get one for each of the older Kids.

My oldest is 7, then 4 and 1... hubby is trying to revert back to his toddler years.

I like to garden, knit, surf web, play sim games... one day I hope to save enough money and start ceramics again that or demolish and rebuild my house... you know in a way that would make some sence.

http://www.cafemom.com/home/d00rst0p

 

[momrids6]

Just like the car was described as "maroon" when it was red.

After all, as mentioned previously, even if the media got it wrong, THAT'S what was put on the flyers.

The van was red with a sunset bronze topcoat: making it look orange...

 

[keyleigh]

She was up by 6:30 -- on her game.

The kids would have been out the door by around 7:30.

That leaves 3 hours.

She didn't play on her game again.

What was she doing during those 3 hours besides the 30 minutes or so it would take to shower, wash her hair, and apply hair rinse?

Why diddle dawdle around all morning?? Why not head out to the mall?

IMO, she DID leave in the van at 10:30, but she wasn't driving. I believe that time was given to LE just in case the neighbors saw the red van pulling out and heading down the road at that time.

That is exactly what I think too.

 

[zwiebel]

I have been searching for anything that might help take people back to what they were doing, on the day/night Jennifer disappeared. I'd find it difficult to remember what I was doing Wednesday two months ago, but if you asked me what I was doing the day two months ago there was a yard fire at the neighbour's, or a traffic snarl up on the highway, I would know. It could be something as simple as a local event like a school play or Santa visiting a store that might remind people what they were doing that day......and what they had seen.

In my town we tend to get flyers coming through the door, announcing what's happening in any given week. *It would be good if any locals had any old ones hanging around, for the week including December 10th, perhaps.

I haven't been able to see anything happening that strikes me as immediately memorable in police reports for that week, but here are some links for anyone else to cast their eyes over.

I am sure it is nothing to do with this case, but I did notice one event of a numberplate theft. Apart from kids messing around, the only reason I can think of for stealing numberplates is for the commission of a crime: if a criminal were to find a vehicle almost identical to their own, steal the plates and put them on their own vehicle during the night, when nobody would notice, they could commit a crime knowing any cctv would pick up another person's numberplate.

They could even swap the plates back after the crime, so the owners of the other vehicle were none the wiser. It makes me wonder if the vehicle similar to Jennifer's was parked there at the time her vehicle first appeared there.


http://www.newberlinnow.com/news/police-report-dec-10-397vbiu-182871131.html

http://www.newberlinnow.com/news/police-report-dec-17-8g80s8l-183954201.html

http://www.newberlinnow.com/news/police-report-dec-28-1f86hfl-185087011.html

 

[Abigail]

I have been searching for anything that might help take people back to what they were doing, on the day/night Jennifer disappeared. I'd find it difficult to remember what I was doing Wednesday two months ago, but if you asked me what I was doing the day two months ago there was a yard fire at the neighbour's, or a traffic snarl up on the highway, I would know. It could be something as simple as a local event like a school play or Santa visiting a store that might remind people what they were doing that day......and what they had seen.

In my town we tend to get flyers coming through the door, announcing what's happening in any given week. *It would be good if any locals had any old ones hanging around, for the week including December 10th, perhaps.

I haven't been able to see anything happening that strikes me as immediately memorable in police reports for that week, but here are some links for anyone else to cast their eyes over.

I am sure it is nothing to do with this case, but I did notice one event of a numberplate theft. Apart from kids messing around, the only reason I can think of for stealing numberplates is for the commission of a crime: if a criminal were to find a vehicle almost identical to their own, steal the plates and put them on their own vehicle during the night, when nobody would notice, they could commit a crime knowing any cctv would pick up another person's numberplate.

They could even swap the plates back after the crime, so the owners of the other vehicle were none the wiser. It makes me wonder if the vehicle similar to Jennifer's was parked there at the time her vehicle first appeared there.


http://www.newberlinnow.com/news/police-report-dec-10-397vbiu-182871131.html

http://www.newberlinnow.com/news/police-report-dec-17-8g80s8l-183954201.html

http://www.newberlinnow.com/news/police-report-dec-28-1f86hfl-185087011.html

Wow...now that's a thought...switching license plates...

Was watching ORR's video again, because wanted to take a look at that van belonging to the resident of the apartment, and see if I could get a better idea of the shade that van was.

Momrids did some sleuthing, and has established that Jenn's van was not maroon, as described (apparently by GR), but actually red with a bronze overcoat. That orange hue isn't as apparent in some of the photos, because the lighting is dark, but Jillian posted a photo a few pages back, and if you enlarge it, you can really get a sense of the true color (especially since it's parked smack dab next to another vehicle that really IS maroon).

But darn it!! Just as I got to the part of the ORR's video where he pulled into the apartment, and got one fleeting glimpse of that other van -- my battery ran dead. It may have been my imagination, but it did look like it had a bit of an orange-red hue. And, remember that Jenn's car had that unusual amount of mud on it (and Ace had the good suggestion that it may have been on there purposefully to obscure).

Anyway...wasn't there some comment awhile back that the family that owned that red van was away?? So...if Jenn's van was parked in about the same spot, it wouldn't have generated any notice?? Maybe not until that family got back and then there were 2 red vans sitting in the parking lot?

I remember one time walking out into a parking lot with the kids and getting into "our" car! It wasn't until the kids noticed that the back seat had different stuff than their own back seat that we all realized we were sitting in the wrong car!! We very sheepishly piled out (and by this time the owner had walked up and was staring at this family getting out of HIS car) and walked the next row over and got in our own(very similar) car.

It's possible that Jenn's van was sitting there the whole time.

 

[Abigail]

Oh Abigail I see. I grew up in NY, but a different area (Saratoga Springs). I was just trying to see how the dress fit in without bringing the daughter since her plan to do that could be easily verified by a 13 year old. Maybe she took her shopping Saturday or Sunday to a closer mall and they didn't have what she needed so she planned to head to the bigger mall when she had more time. Or maybe her daughter was easy to shop for....I could buy something I know my daughter would like, but would likely have to buy two sizes if she wasn't with me and return one later. Especially if shopping was far away making exchanges more difficult.

But yea all that said....I have agreed from the start leaving at 10:30 doesn't make sense! I'm just thinking there was some truth to the dress because 13 isn't young enough that she wouldn't know about it.

I've been thinking...there MIGHT be a small Kohls in New Berlin -- over there in the area where the Goodwill and Walmart are. So...that might be a place where you could take your daughter to look at dresses, and then maybe if they didn't have the right size but she really liked a certain dress, then the store could call around to see if they had it in her size somewhere near. So...it could be that Jenn really was planning to head out to the mall that day...