NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

https://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/melinda-henneberger/article275088326.html

 

[kittythehare]

It is this man’s “Marineness,” his status as a military veteran, that is being singled out for relevance, as if he could have acted no other way, and as if it is the training and culture of service members to choke unarmed men into unconsciousness.

This is not true.

I can’t speak to why this man intervened and choked Neely. But I do know this: Neither the military nor any of the vast network of PMC firms or paramilitary federal agencies that conduct operations side-by-side with it taught this man to choke an unarmed civilian into unconsciousness, unless the military I served in has radically transformed since my discharge in 2020.

The Rules of Engagement I was taught and was made to memorize rigidly emphasized the importance of due care when using force, even in a war zone. I was endlessly reminded that my actions had to be “proportional to the provocation” and “designed to limit the scope and intensity of the conflict.” Both at private training at “the Crucible” and on government military bases, when I qualified to use any small arms, we repeated the same exercise: Paper targets were run out before us, bladed sideways. Suddenly, they would pivot, showing images of either combatants or civilians. “Look at their hands,” our instructors warned us again and again; “don’t look at their faces.” Because it was their hands that would be holding a gun or a detonator … or a camera, a newspaper, or a bottle of water—not a threat, even when the image showed that the civilian was cocking an arm to throw it at us

The way he acted is not the way armed service members are trained to act, and anyone claiming that his status as a Marine indicates a kind of professionalism either doesn’t know what they’re talking about or is deliberately obfuscating what it means to have military training in interacting with civilians under duress. The public discourse implying that his actions were in any way in accord with the doctrine and culture of the military—and the legion of institutions, public and private, whose armed members support its mission at home and around the world—is absolutely false.

I Was in the Military. The Marine Who Killed Jordan Neely Sure Ignored His Training.

Service members are not taught that choking a civilian to death is OK.

slate.com

 

[Lilibet]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... none of Mr Neely’s violent and mentally ill history was known by Penny was it? Were any of Mr Neely’s arrests for capital offenses? His history is irrelevant to Penny’s decision to put him in a potentially lethal chokehold. This was one guy who decided the passengers needed saving by restraining Mr Neely to the point of death. And then he says it was self-defense. He grabbed him from behind…where is the threat from Mr Neely.

And please remember, no matter what Mr Neely has done in the past, in this situation he is the victim on Websleuths.

 

[Lilibet]

I watched “To Kill a Mockingbird” tonight. Some attitudes never change.

 

[ayrshireguy]

Really? Wouldn't the Marines train to kill quickly?

I don't think the ex Marine knew what he was doing. And that's why Mr Neely died. JMO.

In close quarters battle you are trained to deal with non lethal threats too. Restraining etc

 

[Cryptic]

The two men who were also physically involved in restraining this man were black and hispanic, respectively. Multiple people sensed that this man was a significant threat and I am inclined to believe that was so. I do not expect that a jury will convict this ex-Marine.

Good point regarding the strong indications that this was not racially motivated at all. Rather, the motivation could well have been a desire to protect others mixed with "had enough- period".

In regards for a conviction, I think the Marine is in trouble. At the end of the day, Neely did not appear to actually attack somebody, directly threaten an individual, try to steal something etc.

Given that alot of New Yorkers have probably "had enough- period", I don't think it would take much additional circumstances to lead to a "game over / no conviction" sentiment. Say, acted up- then started wrestling a purse away from a woman.

But that does not appear to be what happened. Rather, he appears to have been an annoying homeless guy who was acting up, had acted up and would act up again in the near future.

In the end, his case looks very similar to this one from Texas:

Drunk soccer celebrant urinates in public view- then staggers into a restaurant to continue celebrating. Over all obnoxious and argumentative with the staff and others, he then leaves (to drink more from a car stash?) and comes back.

Though he is clearly not a staff favorite, they don't view him as a deadly threat. When he tries to re-enter, he is confronted by another customer and told to stay out. After an altercation, he is then strangled via a clumsy chokehold.

A jury convicted the "interventionist" sentenced him to 20 years (+): Husband of former deputy was sentenced to 25 years in prison for chokehold death outside Denny's | CNN

 

[kittythehare]

no developments

Penny served in the Marines as a rifleman from 2017 to 2021, reaching the rank of sergeant, according to records provided by the service. He was assigned to Camp Lejeune, N.C., and deployed with the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit to the Mediterranean.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/05/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-subway/

 

[kittythehare]

Rev. Al Sharpton calls for charges against Daniel Penny, 2 others who restrained Jordan Neely on subway

Sources told CBS2 the case is expected to go before a grand jury next week to determine if charges will be brought against Penny.

www.cbsnews.com

"Someone may use the word 'unhinged.' Well, who's really unhinged when you look at the end of this incident? It's the man who killed him. That's who's unhinged. That's who everyone should've been afraid of," attorney Lennon Edwards said.

Hundreds protested Neely's death in Washington Square Park on Friday and called for Penny's arrest.

Indeed.

 

[RANCH]

Jordan Neely Was Already Dead

New York reckons with a homeless epidemic and a killing.

nymag.com

But the city’s web of social organizations is ludicrously underfunded and badly lacking in quantity and coordination, according to City Councilwoman Linda Lee, who chairs the council’s Committee on Mental Health, Disability, and Addiction. “This is yet another unfortunate incident that we’re seeing in the community that could have been prevented,” she told me, specifically citing a lack of crisis centers where people in mental distress can find help and a place to stay in an emergency. “Across New York City, there’s a total of only 50 beds. That’s it, 50 beds,” she said. “When you’re looking at a city of 8.8 million people, it’s not enough services, it’s not enough beds, it’s not enough spaces that are being provided for those that have severe mental illness.”

For Neely, the alternative to social services was the NYPD and a jail cell on Rikers Island. “Cops continued to engage over the next year with the homeless Neely, who often mentioned that he was schizophrenic, had ADHD and was sometimes suicidal,” the Post reports. He was apparently locked up from November 2021 until February of this year after punching and severely injuring an elderly woman.

 

[evilwise]

If it takes longer than 60 seconds to choke someone into unconsciousness, you're choking them wrong and are likely to be doing them actual injury.

 

[RANCH]

If it takes longer than 60 seconds to choke someone into unconsciousness, you're choking them wrong and are likely to be doing them actual injury.

That seems backwards to me.

 

[neesaki]

"The former Marine who put 30-year-old Jordan Neely in a chokehold on a subway train in New York prior to his death on Monday released a statement in which he said that he acted in self defense in the incident and that he 'never intended to harm' the schizophrenic."

Former Maine issues statement on death of homeless man on NYC subway

The former Marine who put 30-year-old Jordan Neely in a chokehold on a subway train in New York prior to his death on Monday has released a statement claiming that he acted in

www.dailymail.co.uk

How difficult to watch, it’s the first time I’ve seen the video. Penny has him in the chokehold too long, beyond what was necessary, and maybe doesn’t realize his own strength. Maybe he thought he should keep him in the chokehold until he passed out, but not to the point of death…… but He obviously didnt know what he was doing. He was even told to let him go by one of the other men, that he was killing him. Horrific.

 

[kittythehare]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654843668971376640

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Horrible and sad. I feel that the former marine did not intend to kill the homeless man. Though I know next-to-nothing about this - apparently there is a way to cut off someone's circulation so that they pass out & don't die. Obviously, this wasn't done properly.

It sounds like charges will be brought against the former marine. Again, I don't believe this was intentional....though that doesn't matter, given that the homeless man is deceased.

<modsnip>

 

[Lilibet]

Good point regarding the strong indications that this was not racially motivated at all.

I agree that it probably wasn’t racially motivated in the sense that I doubt Penny was targeting him *because* of his color. But I can understand the perception on the part of people of color that it *was* racially motivated because of both history and current attitudes and events like the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. They no doubt wonder if Penny would have reacted with a lethal chokehold if Mr Neely had been white. I wonder that too. It’s a fact that there are many, many white people who view POC as less deserving of compassion than whites. So it’s understandable that even a subtle racial motivation would be suspected. I get it, even though I will give Penny the benefit of the doubt (that he didn’t give Mr Neely) and assume he was motivated by a desire to protect his fellow passengers and himself from a perceived threat. And I don’t believe he intended to kill Mr Neely, but adrenaline and hubris probably took over and led to him behaving with disregard for human life. That being said, there need to be serious consequences for Mr Penny so that vigilante violence is not celebrated (as I see it is on SM comments) or normalized.
JMO

 

[evilwise]

That seems backwards to me.

I know it seems counterintuitive but it isn't about the aggression of the choke, it would take a crazy strong person to just immediately break a neck. It's about technique. There are two different mechanisms by which a person might lose consciousness from a "choke". The ideal way to incapacitate someone by choking, both efficient and less injurious is for the corotid artery from the heart through the side of the neck to the brain to be cut off, a "blood choke" or "sleeper hold". A person will very quickly lose consciousness from this sort of choke and (barring blood clots/stroke etc - a healthy person) will regain consciousness a few minutes after being released.

The much sloppier "air choke" that any idiot can do, mashing the front of the neck causes a loss of consciousness by cutting air off to the lungs which denies the entire body of oxygen, not just the brain. All the oxygen currently in the blood as well as what might be gasped for has to be exhausted over many minutes before the restrained person loses consciousness. Other absolutely vital organs like the heart or lungs might fail before the lights go out in the brain.

Basically, too many people watch MMA on television and learn very basic techniques then think it's a good idea to use them in real life with no training, no rules and no referee to call the fight once the loser becomes unable to defend themselves.

Chokehold - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[SusanDonim]

Horrible and sad. I feel that the former marine did not intend to kill the homeless man. Though I know next-to-nothing about this - apparently there is a way to cut off someone's circulation so that they pass out & don't die. Obviously, this guy didn't know how to do this properly.

It sounds like charges will be brought against the former marine. However - again, I don't believe this was intentional....though that doesn't matter, given that the homeless man is deceased.

<modsnip>

BBM.
There is, and Marines are trained in this. Someone posted details upthread.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Didn't want to make my last post too long:

I’m on the New York City subways about 2 days a week and open invitation to anyone on this thread who would like to see firsthand, come to NYC and I’ll take you on a tour and we can assess together how grave the homeless situation is in the MTA right now. It is at least 10x as bad as it was pre-COVID. It is frightening, it smells revolting, there are people screaming nonsensically at all hours of the night and day, urinating and defecating on themselves and the threat of irrational violence is real. The two men who were also physically involved in restraining this man were black and hispanic, respectively. Multiple people sensed that this man was a significant threat and I am inclined to believe that was so. I do not expect that a jury will convict this ex-Marine.

Adding that women in the subway now think of Michelle Go. Woman Dies After Being Pushed Onto Subway Tracks in Times Square (Published 2022)
I think of that woman every day when I’m down there.

Agree with all of this. Though I've never lived in NYC, I have seen (and unfortunately experienced) these exact problems on public transportation. Again, there needs to be more security on the trains so that those that threaten the other passengers are immediately removed.

And, yes - I know that when you're on a subway platform, you should stand far back from the platform because there have been cases of criminals (whether or not they're disturbed) pushing people in front of the train for no reason. Sickening.

Note that in NYC & other cities, a lot of people rely completely on the public transportation to get around because they don't have cars. Or, even if they do - they would rather deal with the subway than the traffic. So, commuters/city denizens/tourists/etc. should be able to take the subway safely & not have to worry about being threatened/assaulted/etc.

 

[RANCH]

BBM.
There is, and Marines are trained in this. Someone posted details upthread.

Maybe Neely's family can sue the Marine Corp for not training Mr Penny properly.

 

[Lilibet]

Basically, too many people watch MMA on television and learn very basic techniques then think it's a good idea to use them in real life with no training, no rules and no referee to call the fight once the loser becomes unable to defend themselves.

As has been noted, Penny’s Marine training would have trained him in the safer “blood choke” which he decided not to use. Perhaps his MMA “training” took over.