NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

I agree that it probably wasn’t racially motivated in the sense that I doubt Penny was targeting him *because* of his color. But I can understand the perception on the part of people of color that it *was* racially motivated because of both history and current attitudes and events like the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. They no doubt wonder if Penny would have reacted with a lethal chokehold if Mr Neely had been white. I wonder that too. It’s a fact that there are many, many white people who view POC as less deserving of compassion than whites. So it’s understandable that even a subtle racial motivation would be suspected. I get it, even though I will give Penny the benefit of the doubt (that he didn’t give Mr Neely) and assume he was motivated by a desire to protect his fellow passengers and himself from a perceived threat. And I don’t believe he intended to kill Mr Neely, but adrenaline and hubris probably took over and led to him behaving with disregard for human life. That being said, there need to be serious consequences for Mr Penny so that vigilante violence is not celebrated (as I see it is on SM comments) or normalized.
JMO

That is what I'm afraid of, vigilante violence and extermination of disabled people will become more frequent, with impunity.

 

[evilwise]

As has been noted, Penny’s Marine training would have trained him in the safer “blood choke” which he decided not to use. Perhaps his MMA “training” took over.

Agreed although for hand to hand combat it's more about the efficiency than the safety. If you take 15 minutes to neutralize an enemy combatant on the battlefield, you're gonna die.

 

[Lilibet]

Didn't want to make my last post too long:



Agree with all of this. Though I've never lived in NYC, I have seen (and unfortunately experienced) these exact problems on public transportation. Again, there needs to be more security on the trains so that those that threaten the other passengers are immediately removed.

And, yes - I know that when you're on a subway platform, you should stand far back from the platform because there have been cases of criminals (whether or not they're disturbed) pushing people in front of the train for no reason. Sickening.

Note that in NYC & other cities, a lot of people rely completely on the public transportation to get around because they don't have cars. Or, even if they do - they would rather deal with the subway than the traffic. So, commuters/city denizens/tourists/etc. should be able to take the subway safely & not have to worry about being threatened/assaulted/etc.

Ideally, there does need to be more security, but they can’t be everywhere.

This is purely anecdotal so take it FWIW, but as a tourist in NYC I have taken the subway many times on numerous visits with no fear or bad experiences. My last visit was in late 2018, so perhaps things are worse now. Had I felt threatened, I would have avoided eye contact and moved to another car if possible. And had someone “pulled a Penny” I would have found a way to intervene, even though I am a woman in my 70’s. I can’t imagine looking the other way and doing nothing.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

I believe you. It must be scary and gross and yes, the situation is grave. However, none of the issues you mention (frightening, smells revolting, screaming nonsensically, urinating and defecating on themselves and the threat of irrational violence…which may or may not be real) is a capital offense, is it?

Since this situation is not solvable in the near future, IMO it is up to individuals riding the trains to personally assess the danger they see and move out of harm’s way if possible before harm befalls them. Obviously, Michelle Go did not see the threat. But what you describe are mostly situations that individuals can handle or ignore without resorting to violence.

Again, I've been on public transportation and have seen disturbed people acting in a wide range of erratic/violent/threatening behavior. However, I agree there are definitely degrees re: this type of behavior. I.e., I think most people can tell the difference between:

1) A disturbed person acting erratically/muttering to themselves, but essentially minding their own business. (And, someone %#%$#%#@% and %$##%$@ themselves is not threatening, even though you don't want to be around them).

2) Someone screaming non-stop and/or talking nonsensically, but not threatening violence and/or threatening anyone.

Or,

3) A deranged person who is screaming & threatening violence to others in the vicinity....and/or is actively getting in people's faces/threatening them with violence, etc.

I have definitely seen all three of these. And, while #1 & #2 are probably not threats, #3 is most definitely a threat.

Also note that when you are on a train/subway - you can move to another car. However, you are still somewhat "stuck" on the train until you reach your stop (unless you want to get off an earlier stop). And, note that the disturbed person can easily follow you to the other car(s) - I've seen this happen too. So, essentially - the concern re: being attacked is obviously greater on a subway than it is out on the street - where you can get "away" a lot easier.

I & I'm sure many others would extremely interested in seeing a video (if there is one) of what the deceased was doing/how he was acting/exactly what he was saying prior to being put in the choke-hold. I haven't found this yet online - so I'm not sure if anyone was taking a video of this man prior to the choke-hold. I'm very curious as to exactly how threatening he was - especially given that different people evaluate these types of things differently.

 

[kittythehare]

Agreed although for hand to hand combat it's more about the efficiency than the safety. If you take 15 minutes to neutralize an enemy combatant on the battlefield, you're gonna die.

This is the USMC training manual.

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student%20Materials/MCECST/B_Tan_Belt_Execute_Chokes_%20SO.pdf?ver=pJH__SmOfUgRAWuTKRUJDQ%3D%3D

 

[RANCH]

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Jordan Neely, the man killed in chokehold on NYC subway, is remembered as an entertainer shattered by his mother's murder | CNN

Before Jordan Neely was killed on a New York City subway car this week, he was known for his swift Michael Jackson dance moves that entertained many — yet he struggled with the trauma his mother's murder had left him with at an early age.

www.cnn.com

 

[kittythehare]

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Jordan Neely, the man killed in chokehold on NYC subway, is remembered as an entertainer shattered by his mother's murder | CNN

Before Jordan Neely was killed on a New York City subway car this week, he was known for his swift Michael Jackson dance moves that entertained many — yet he struggled with the trauma his mother's murder had left him with at an early age.

www.cnn.com

Former marine could have moved too.
Why did he not?

I posted a link from Slate late last night , written by a marine describing their actual roles in society .
He claims this former marine was not acting according to trained protocol and he explained in depth the reasons why.

It's worth reading, particularly for people who believe the ill among us, with who we are meant to be sharing our planet should be
'removed' , extrajudicially assassinated, on sight, or targeted according to individuals' comfort levels.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm wondering if jail had been a safe place for Jordan?
He at least had food and a bed there. Possibly meds too.

i wonder whether he longed to return to whatever safety he found there.

 

[evilwise]

This is the USMC training manual.

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student%20Materials/MCECST/B_Tan_Belt_Execute_Chokes_%20SO.pdf?ver=pJH__SmOfUgRAWuTKRUJDQ%3D%3D

Yep - from your link

(1) Blood Choke. A blood choke is performed on the carotid artery, which carries oxygen-enriched blood from the heart to the brain. The carotid artery is located on both sides of the neck.
(a) When executed properly, a blood choke takes
between eight to thirteen seconds for the opponent to lose consciousness.
(b) The blood choke is the preferred choke because its intended effect (i.e., the opponent losing consciousness) can be executed quickly, ending the fight.

(2) Air Choke. An air choke is performed on the windpipe or trachea, cutting off the air to the lungs and heart.
(a) When executed properly, an air choke takes between two and three minutes for the opponent to lose consciousness.
(b) Due to the length of time it takes to stop the fight with an air choke, air chokes are not recommended and will not be taught in this course.
(c) As an instructor, you need to know the difference between a blood and air choke because, when a blood choke is incorrectly performed, most likely the student is applying pressure to the windpipe and executing an air choke.

 

[kittythehare]

scroll to the last video on this link and listen

Subway chokehold: Protesters take to the subway following Jordan Neely death

There have been rallies calling for the same thing across New York City. Protesters took to the streets starting in Union Square and headed inside the 63rd Street-Lexington Avenue subway station.

abc7ny.com

Video shows Jordan Neely asking for donations on April 1.

if you listen carefully, he seems to be half chanting, half muttering words about needing food and needing drink...

i wonder whether he was 'singing' the same song when he was chokehold killed on Monday...?

 

[kittythehare]

Yep - from your link

(1) Blood Choke. A blood choke is performed on the carotid artery, which carries oxygen-enriched blood from the heart to the brain. The carotid artery is located on both sides of the neck.
(a) When executed properly, a blood choke takes
between eight to thirteen seconds for the opponent to lose consciousness.
(b) The blood choke is the preferred choke because its intended effect (i.e., the opponent losing consciousness) can be executed quickly, ending the fight.

(2) Air Choke. An air choke is performed on the windpipe or trachea, cutting off the air to the lungs and heart.
(a) When executed properly, an air choke takes between two and three minutes for the opponent to lose consciousness.
(b) Due to the length of time it takes to stop the fight with an air choke, air chokes are not recommended and will not be taught in this course.
(c) As an instructor, you need to know the difference between a blood and air choke because, when a blood choke is incorrectly performed, most likely the student is applying pressure to the windpipe and executing an air choke.

I've read it, link was provided because it is the manual and the training that the former marine had access

In the video and the imagery we have seen and the anecdotal stories of what happened we know that Jordan was approached from behind and the position the former marine type person probably engaged in a REAR chokehold.

However the photographs and videos appear to show us the
ENHANCED real chokehold described here.

Recall Jordan was quite small in stature.

(b) Technique. (1) Apply a rear choke. Your body should be against the opponent's body. (2) Bring your left arm over your opponents left shoulder and grasp your left biceps with your right hand and place your left hand against the back of the opponent's head. (3) With your left hand on the back of your opponents head, and your elbows in, push the opponent's head forward and down. (4) Draw your right arm in, maintaining pressure with your biceps and forearm on both sides of the opponent's neck.

Figure-Four Variation. (a) Purpose. The figure-four is a variation of the rear choke and it allows you to gain more leverage on the rear choke. If you cannot secure the rear choke, you may apply the figure-four variation to increase the pressure of the choke on the opponent.

This is why it is so alarming.

Recall chokehold lasted up to 15 minutes according to all vague reports because they are all quite vague..
There's only a few minutes of video..

I don't see this as a black/ white problem at the moment.

I do see it as a dehumanisation of a sick person and I do see it as a vigilante attack that was unnecessary.
Some passengers moved.. everybody was free to move..

The language used in the media about his demeanor and actions, throwing rubbish around is clearly hearsay and varies wildly. There was no rubbish to be seen.

The train was his home in his mind, I think.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Sounds like it was a good thing that fine young Marine was there.

Jordan Neely's arrest record examined as outrage grows over subway death

Neely, 30, died after he was restrained by other riders on a Manhattan subway, including one who put him in a chokehold for several minutes.

www.newsweek.com

Well the facts are Neely was dangerous in the past. Had a current warrant for assault. was acting in a threatening manner. Are people supposed to wait to get beaten before they fight back? The time to take action is when you feel threatened. I watched the same video. Looks to me the Marine was controlling him the best he could. I doubt killing the man was on his mind. And the last time I checked, a civilian is allowed to use a choke hold to protect themselves and others. Imo.

At first I wasn't sure if the first post was sarcasm, but then I saw the second.

Are we really getting to the point where we are punishing people for crimes they might commit? Minority report anyone?.

Penny may very well have been a "fine young marine", that doesn't give him the right to kill someone for what he predicts they might do.

How many of the mentally ill homeless people on the streets and subways of NYC, the ones screaming, soiling themselves, generally making others feel uncomfortable, were once "fine young marines" too?.

 

[Lindsaym]

Wow, I can genuinely tell who here has lived in NYC and traveled on the subway regularly in the last three years, and who hasn't.

I think there needs to be an investigation for sure. <modsnip>

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Wow, I can genuinely tell who here has lived in NYC and traveled on the subway regularly in the last three years, and who hasn't.

I think there needs to be an investigation for sure. <modsnip>

Good point(s). I was last in NYC in Summer 2016 - on vacation. I was there for about a week, went to a lot of different areas - and used the subway exclusively to get around since I didn't want to rent a car and deal with the traffic. I didn't notice much of an issue on the subway - other than it being extremely crowded....especially & obviously @ rush hour. Those using this seemed to primarily be commuters/tourists & people that probably lived in the area. I did see some homeless/disturbed people talking to themselves/non-aggressively panhandling - but they definitely didn't appear threatening, etc. Obviously, this was just my experience & I primarily went to tourist areas, etc.

However, that was years ago & obviously things have gotten significantly worse since then. This is based on this recent tragedy & other news reports in the past several years....especially post-COVID.

 

[Cryptic]

apparently there is a way to cut off someone's circulation so that they pass out & don't die. Obviously, this wasn't done properly.

Even the "right" chokehold will be fatal if its applied too long.

In the end, however, your thought is right. There is a less lethal chokehold that when done correctly, allows the person to recover once released.

The one and only problem is that there is a huge gap between being able to safely do it in a classroom under close supervision and with a willing practice subject and being able to do it in "the wild" with a resisting person.

 

[kittythehare]

Even the "right" chokehold will be fatal if its applied too long.

In the end, however, your thought is right. There is a less lethal chokehold that when done correctly, allows the person to recover once released.

The one and only problem is that there is a huge gap between being able to safely do it in a classroom under close supervision and with a willing practice subject and being able to do it in "the wild" with a resisting person.

worth reading the laws of NY regarding physical and lethal force!

Article 35 NY Penal Law - Defense of Justification | NY Laws

Justifiable use of physical force, conduct which would otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal when

ypdcrime.com

 

[neesaki]

Horrible and sad. I feel that the former marine did not intend to kill the homeless man. Though I know next-to-nothing about this - apparently there is a way to cut off someone's circulation so that they pass out & don't die. Obviously, this wasn't done properly.

It sounds like charges will be brought against the former marine. Again, I don't believe this was intentional....though that doesn't matter, given that the homeless man is deceased.

<modsnip>

Yeah. It reminds me of when I was in Nursing school. When you just start learning, you’re all excited with new learning and all, and you start thinking you know more than you really know, right?
Fact is, that’s when you’re the most “dangerous”. Why? Because some can over qualify themselves….whether out of naivety, and /or over self confidence. Newfound knowledge, right? I mean, for God’s sake don’t start diagnosing people’s ailments, or recommending treatments !
I think that’s this Marine. At least that’s all I hope it is. I certainly hope he’s not sadistic. JMO

 

[kaen]

Good point(s). I was last in NYC in Summer 2016 - on vacation. I was there for about a week, went to a lot of different areas - and used the subway exclusively to get around since I didn't want to rent a car and deal with the traffic. I didn't notice much of an issue on the subway - other than it being extremely crowded....especially & obviously @ rush hour. Those using this seemed to primarily be commuters/tourists & people that probably lived in the area. I did see some homeless/disturbed people talking to themselves/non-aggressively panhandling - but they definitely didn't appear threatening, etc. Obviously, this was just my experience & I primarily went to tourist areas, etc.

However, that was years ago & obviously things have gotten significantly worse since then. This is based on this recent tragedy & other news reports in the past several years....especially post-COVID.

I use the subway nearly every day. Certain lines and areas of the city are much more safe and clean than others. The area that I have routinely used is less safe and dirtier. It is true that the pandemic didn't help things get better and probably made things worse budget wise. Additionally there are less and less station personnel ever out of the booth--so you get fare jumpers, folks trying to "sell" you a card and harassing for money near the machines. On my lines, they have stepped up policing so things are better at certain times. In truth I have begun walking 20+ blocks or taking a bus. That said, even the buses can be hairy with fare jumpers.

This is not just a policing issue. I ride at 125th so that means that I am in the thick of crossing pathways. The rise in police presence (with a mobile command center with officers waiting for patrol assignments) has been great but it has, indeed, pushed some of the more violent folks into the subway or toward areas that are less populated (making that block or blocks) more turbulent.

I am not sure what I think about this killing. I will let the grand jury handle it. I know the feeling of discomfort or fear that people talk about. Yet, I also know that there is no place to put homeless folks or mentally unstable folks so we have a conundrum.

 

[neesaki]

As soon as Neely got on the train, he started yelling about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Vazquez told CNN.

Before he was killed, Neely said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,” according to Vazquez.

At some point, Neely took off his coat and threw it on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez said.

As the yelling continued, many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other parts of the train car. Neely did not appear to be armed or looking to attack anyone, Vazquez told CNN.

Jordan Neely, the man killed in chokehold on NYC subway, is remembered as an entertainer shattered by his mother's murder | CNN

Before Jordan Neely was killed on a New York City subway car this week, he was known for his swift Michael Jackson dance moves that entertained many — yet he struggled with the trauma his mother's murder had left him with at an early age.

www.cnn.com

That makes me very sad. At that point my maternal instincts would have probably kicked in, and I would have tried to calm and help him. I would have at least tried….. unless…… he was being physically violent. Which is still not completely clear to me.

 

[RANCH]

That makes me very sad. At that point my maternal instincts would have probably kicked in, and I would have tried to calm and help him. I would have at least tried….. unless…… he was being physically violent. Which is still not completely clear to me.

Yep. It would be nice if we had some more witness statements and or video. JMO.