NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

Subway chokehold: Protesters take to the subway following Jordan Neely death

There have been rallies calling for the same thing across New York City. Protesters took to the streets starting in Union Square and headed inside the 63rd Street-Lexington Avenue subway station.

abc7ny.com

 

[neesaki]

Maybe Neely's family can sue the Marine Corp for not training Mr Penny properly.

He’s only 24. How long was he a marine? He certainly wasn’t advanced , he couldn’t have been in very advanced at 24, right? As I posted earlier, maybe he was over confident in his training. Still, he should have been trained to maintain awareness as to the victim’s physical state and well being. JMO

ETA: sorry, had some typos

 

[Lilibet]

Wow, I can genuinely tell who here has lived in NYC and traveled on the subway regularly in the last three years, and who hasn't.

<snipped for focus>

I’m not sure what your point is @Lindsaym. Can you clarify? I think even those of us who haven’t traveled on the subway more recently have gotten a clear idea of what it is like from those who have. We can see that their quality of life and sense of safety on the subway has deteriorated significantly. I’m sure that the quality of life and sense of safety of the homeless has deteriorated too. Do you see a viable solution?

That makes me very sad. At that point my maternal instincts would have probably kicked in, and I would have tried to calm and help him. I would have at least tried….. unless…… he was being physically violent. Which is still not completely clear to me.

Yes, my thought was…give him your water bottle, your snack, your seat, talk with him. Let him know you care. That’s what he apparently was distressed and feeling hopeless about.

 

[neesaki]

I’m not sure what your point is @Lindsaym. Can you clarify? I think even those of us who haven’t traveled on the subway more recently have gotten a clear idea of what it is like from those who have. We can see that their quality of life and sense of safety on the subway has deteriorated significantly. I’m sure that the quality of life and sense of safety of the homeless has deteriorated too. Do you see a viable solution?




Yes, my thought was…give him your water bottle, your snack, your seat, talk with him. Let him know you care. That’s what he apparently was distressed and feeling hopeless about.

It’s Just heartbreaking isn’t it.

 

[kittythehare]

Yep. It would be nice if we had some more witness statements and or video. JMO.

police are said to be interviewing witnesses.
i don't know how many..
or how astute or observant they all were.
i just hope they have some reliable ones because the rumor mill is rife.. <modsnip - rumors>

I really do think the journalists are going to need to dig deep and find out what actually preceded the killing.
There is remarkably little information on the killer, this is unusual.
It happened last Monday afaik..
Strange elements at play here.

 

[IceIce9]

I’m on the New York City subways about 2 days a week and open invitation to anyone on this thread who would like to see firsthand, come to NYC and I’ll take you on a tour and we can assess together how grave the homeless situation is in the MTA right now. It is at least 10x as bad as it was pre-COVID. It is frightening, it smells revolting, there are people screaming nonsensically at all hours of the night and day, urinating and defecating on themselves and the threat of irrational violence is real. The two men who were also physically involved in restraining this man were black and hispanic, respectively. Multiple people sensed that this man was a significant threat and I am inclined to believe that was so. I do not expect that a jury will convict this ex-Marine.

Adding that women in the subway now think of Michelle Go. Woman Dies After Being Pushed Onto Subway Tracks in Times Square (Published 2022)
I think of that woman every day when I’m down there.

I was walking downtown today, and a black man who looked to be in his 20s was walking around on the sidewalk screaming, “I took too much Xanax! I took too much Xanax” over and over. He was walking between and around other people who were walking on the sidewalk. Throwing his arms around, punching his fists in the air. He had a very angry expression on his face, his body language was aggressive.

People were trying to stay out of his way, he kept circling around, still yelling “I took too much Xanax!! I TOOK TOO MUCH XANAX!!” Walking erratically, yelling directly at people who were just trying to walk on the sidewalk.

What is to be done in a situation like this? Obviously the man was having some sort of issue but to me and the others around he definitely appeared to be dangerous. People were simply trying to walk on the sidewalk to work or to lunch.

 

[kittythehare]

I was walking downtown today, and a black man who looked to be in his 20s was walking around on the sidewalk screaming, “I took too much Xanax! I took too much Xanax” over and over. He was walking between and around other people who were walking on the sidewalk. Throwing his arms around, punching his fists in the air. He had a very angry expression on his face, his body language was aggressive.

People were trying to stay out of his way, he kept circling around, still yelling “I took too much Xanax!! I TOOK TOO MUCH XANAX!!” Walking erratically, yelling directly at people who were just trying to walk on the sidewalk.

What is to be done in a situation like this? Obviously the man was having some sort of issue but to me and the others around he definitely appeared to be dangerous. People were simply trying to walk on the sidewalk to work or to lunch.

Simples.

Call him an ambulance, he's saying he has OD'd.

 

[Interested Torontonian]

Simples.

Call him an ambulance, he's saying he has OD'd.

I'm not sure what city you live in but I'm guessing in most major cities calling 911 to say someone is ODing in public won't get any response quickly...if at all.

I'm personally against the whole ' the police' movement - but something they get 100% right is that there needs to be a better way to get immediate support in situations that involve people who aren't 'criminals'.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm not sure what city you live in but I'm guessing in most major cities calling 911 to say someone is ODing in public won't get any response quickly...if at all.

I'm personally against the whole ' the police' movement - but something they get 100% right is that there needs to be a better way to get immediate support in situations that involve people who aren't 'criminals'.

In any city or small town in the world it would be common practice to call for assistance if a person is telling one and all they they have over dosed.
This is not hard and has nothing to do with policing.
Police are not trained paramedics.
An ambulance brings trained medics.

<modsnip>

 

[elevatorific]

I'm not sure what city you live in but I'm guessing in most major cities calling 911 to say someone is ODing in public won't get any response quickly...if at all.

I'm personally against the whole ' the police' movement - but something they get 100% right is that there needs to be a better way to get immediate support in situations that involve people who aren't 'criminals'.

The important thing is if you are on the phone with 911 then that means you aren’t choking him.

But I would do the same thing I do if I come across drunk frat boys, angry sports fans whose team just lost, catcalling creeps, or anyone I just don’t want to deal with. Cross the street or make distance some other way. And then reflect on what “definitely appeared to be dangerous” even means.

 

[Lilibet]

I'm not sure what city you live in but I'm guessing in most major cities calling 911 to say someone is ODing in public won't get any response quickly...if at all.

I'm personally against the whole ' the police' movement - but something they get 100% right is that there needs to be a better way to get immediate support in situations that involve people who aren't 'criminals'.

Funny you should mention getting immediate support when people aren’t criminals. This is what Eugene OR has done for about 30 years.

CAHOOTS (Crisis Assistance Helping Out On The Streets) provides mobile crisis intervention 24/7 in the Eugene-Springfield Metro area. CAHOOTS is dispatched through the Eugene police-fire-ambulance communications center, and within the Springfield urban growth boundary, dispatched through the Springfield non-emergency number. Each team consists of a medic and a crisis worker.

CAHOOTS provides immediate stabilization in case of urgent medical need or psychological crisis, assessment, information, referral, advocacy and, in some cases, transportation to the next step in treatment. Any person who reports a crime in progress, violence, or a life-threatening emergency may receive a response from the police or emergency medical services instead of or in addition to CAHOOTS.

CAHOOTS offers a broad range of services, including but not limited to:

Crisis Counseling
Suicide Prevention, Assessment, and Intervention
Conflict Resolution and Mediation
Grief and loss
Substance Abuse
Housing Crisis
First Aid and Non-Emergency Medical Care
Resource Connection and Referrals
Transportation to Services

CAHOOTS - White Bird Clinic

CAHOOTS Eugene: 541-682-5111 / Springfield: 541-726-3714 CAHOOTS (Crisis Assistance Helping Out On The Streets) provides mobile crisis intervention 24/7 in the […]

whitebirdclinic.org

CAHOOTS | Eugene, OR Website

The City funds CAHOOTS through the Eugene Police Department.

www.eugene-or.gov

 

[Lilibet]

I was walking downtown today, and a black man who looked to be in his 20s was walking around on the sidewalk screaming, “I took too much Xanax! I took too much Xanax” over and over. He was walking between and around other people who were walking on the sidewalk. Throwing his arms around, punching his fists in the air. He had a very angry expression on his face, his body language was aggressive.

People were trying to stay out of his way, he kept circling around, still yelling “I took too much Xanax!! I TOOK TOO MUCH XANAX!!” Walking erratically, yelling directly at people who were just trying to walk on the sidewalk.

What is to be done in a situation like this? Obviously the man was having some sort of issue but to me and the others around he definitely appeared to be dangerous. People were simply trying to walk on the sidewalk to work or to lunch.

As an EMT @IceIce9, was there a particular reason you didn’t call 911? I will grant you that if he had taken too much Xanax, it would have reduced his anxiety and anger, but clearly something was wrong and he needed help. No judgement…just trying to understand your thinking.

 

[Interested Torontonian]

In any city or small town in the world it would be common practice to call for assistance if a person is telling one and all they they have over dosed.
This is not hard and has nothing to do with policing.
Police are not trained paramedics.
An ambulance brings trained medics.

<modsnip>

It's not common practice at all for people to 'call for assistance' if they think someone is overdosing. Sadly - the exact opposite is true - everyday people just walk by others who are in extreme distress (or, rather than 'walk by', actively avoid them).

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

Additionally - calling for help for people in distress also doesn't automatically yield a fast response. Earlier this winter, on an extremely freezing day, I encountered an unhoused individual literally lying face down on the sidewalk wearing minimal clothing. I was alarmed and immediately called 911 telling them I'd encountered someone in severe distress and described the circumstances. 20 minutes later...with no action - a police car just happened to drive by and i flagged them down and they took over. about 6 hrs later (and in the middle of the night) i got a call back from 911 asking what the current status of the individual i called about was.

I live in one of the busiest intersections in Toronto (frankly all of Canada). There was nothing immediate/geographically that prevented a response.

A good friend of mine works for a community agency - when I told her what happened she said that the best thing to do in similar situations was to call 911 and make it sound like a'normal' person had suddenly collapsed and the response would be more attentive. Sad but true.

 

[Lilibet]

Some random thoughts…I realize that it’s easy to become fearful and overwhelmed by the rapidly growing homeless residents in big cities. The same can be true in small towns on a smaller scale unless we work hard at overcoming our natural irritation and fear. We are a small town of 22,000 in southern Oregon with a pretty sizable and increasing homeless population. Most of them hang out on the downtown plaza and generally aren’t a problem, except for creating occasional drama and ruining the aesthetics for affluent tourists. /s Our downtown police patrols have been cut due to downsizing, so it occurs to me that we have to approach our homeless from a place of kindness rather than fear, which begets fear, and leads to seeing the need to protect ourselves as appears happened between Penny and Neely.

We live downtown and my husband likes to sit on the Plaza and people-watch. He sees a lot of mental illness, and is generally not afraid to interact. Often as I walk around the side of our apartment building to get to our garage on the alley, there will be a couple of homeless residents sitting on a bench near the path. I always greet them with a smile and make very brief small talk. I’ve never felt threatened nor been asked for money. I did have to ask one young man to move his camp (complete with BBQ) away from the fire exit. He complied.

Our downstairs neighbor is my age (77) and goes the extra mile out of great compassion. She texted me this afternoon to let us know that she had given permission to a “cold, wet and lonely (but not dangerous) homeless woman” to spend the night under her deck out of the rain. Our neighbor is so kind and giving in the midst of her own cancer battle. She truly leads with love. I commended her and she replied with a mended heart emoji. Most of these lost ones, like Jordan, just need someone to show they care in the moment (obviously he needed long term care too). Her example makes me examine how I can show I care. I think doing a little more than small talk as I have an opportunity is a good way to get to know them. Can’t hurt, might help. And it might help mend a broken heart.

 

[Ladyotm]

At first I wasn't sure if the first post was sarcasm, but then I saw the second.

Are we really getting to the point where we are punishing people for crimes they might commit? Minority report anyone?.

Penny may very well have been a "fine young marine", that doesn't give him the right to kill someone for what he predicts they might do.

How many of the mentally ill homeless people on the streets and subways of NYC, the ones screaming, soiling themselves, generally making others feel uncomfortable, were once "fine young marines" too?.

I agree with you everything you said. 15 minutes is a long time and must have been physically exhausting. IMO, I don't care what anyone says...it you choose to restrict someone's breathing for that long, you intend to kill them. What intelligent person would not think death would be the outcome? Had one person extended some help or morsel of food this may not have happened.

 

[Ladyotm]

How difficult to watch, it’s the first time I’ve seen the video. Penny has him in the chokehold too long, beyond what was necessary, and maybe doesn’t realize his own strength. Maybe he thought he should keep him in the chokehold until he passed out, but not to the point of death…… but He obviously didnt know what he was doing. He was even told to let him go by one of the other men, that he was killing him. Horrific.

I just watched those last few minutes of the video. The others who restrained him should be charged as well. I want to know their names as well! Someone had the life squeezed out of them, killed, in front of cameras and everyday people. Yet no one intervened to stop the madness. Just like George Floyd.

 

[Cryptic]

As has been noted, Penny’s Marine training would have trained him in the safer “blood choke” which he decided not to use. Perhaps his MMA “training” took over.

It might not have been a conscious decision.

The difference between the relatively safer 'blood choke' and an air choke is small- especially in real world, always less than ideal situations outside of a classroom.

As a result, he could well have intended the relatively safer variant, but ended up doing the other. Or, he could have just kept the safer variant on too long.

This whole incident reinforces why police forces have banned choke holds of any kind. Even with the best of intentions, they are very difficult to do correctly "on the street".

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Sounds like it was a good thing that fine young Marine was there.

Jordan Neely's arrest record examined as outrage grows over subway death

Neely, 30, died after he was restrained by other riders on a Manhattan subway, including one who put him in a chokehold for several minutes.

www.newsweek.com

Really???? From that article:
"A New York City police spokesperson told Newsweek that Neely's record has 42 prior arrests, dating between 2013 and 2021. They include four for alleged assault, while others involved accusations of transit fraud and criminal trespass. At the time of his death, Neely had one active warrant for an alleged assault in connection with a 2021 incident.

Many of Neely's arrests were for alleged violations of local law, the spokesperson said, and involved lower-level offenses such as having an open container of alcohol in public."


As far as I know, we don't hand out death sentences for open container violations or "criminal trespass," which is a charge that goes hand-in-hand with being homeless.

 

[RosalindaA]

Images of someone being held in type of chokehold always make me feel ill, but it led me to think of what I would have done in that situation, being a retired mental health nurse. So I should have felt able to deal with it?
I came to the conclusion that actually I still would have felt pretty unsure of what to do, being alone and no back-up which I usually would have had. And given that I am female and the sunbject was a young male, already agitated and aggressive and that I don't know his history or how he might react even if I try and approach him to listen and de-escalate, I don't think it would have been wise to do this. If someone is behaving this way, you can approach kindly and calmly but they may well still lash out at you - you cannot assume they will respond rationally.

I can understand Penny doing what he did if there was no escape out of that confined space at tthat time and he thought Jordan was about to attack someone or might have a weapon. There might be split seconds before an innocent person is badly harmed. In that situation I would very much have appreciated another young male taking that action. What I don't understand is why with other men there, they could not have moved to a safer form of restraint immediately. This is the point where I think I would have tried to intervene as it seems clear that Jordan was then at risk. This was what I didn't understand about the George Floyd case either is why people watching did not challenge the person performing a dangerous restraint.

Also if the reports of what Jordan was saying are true, that he was shouting that he didn't care if he got a life sentence, then he is announcing that he is about to commit a serious crime. So he is going to be perceived in that second, as a violent criminal, not someone who is mentally ill. Past arrests including four for alleged assault (At the time of his death, Neely had a warrant out for his arrest for a November 2021 case in which he was accused of assaulting a 67-year-old woman in the East Village, the sources said.)

suggest this young man had a history of both , so we don't actually know that his behaviour was anything to do a current defined mental health episode. And at the end of the day, how was anyone in that carriage to know that he would not carry out his threat? <modsnip: off topic>

Jordan Neely was, it has been said, by his uncle, to have been "self-medicating with K2" (oh dear). Did early use lead to him becoming schizophrenic? I totally agree that his life had a tragic trajectory with many, many factors that were out of his control and led to this horrible end. But I think it is terribly sad that this normalization of cannabis (especially in certain demographics) could have caused his schizophrenia and prevented him having a successful life. And that many other young men are being allowed, I would say, "encouraged" by certain governments to sail on into this terrible mental illness. So irresponsible.

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Well the facts are Neely was dangerous in the past. Had a current warrant for assault. was acting in a threatening manner. Are people supposed to wait to get beaten before they fight back? The time to take action is when you feel threatened. I watched the same video. Looks to me the Marine was controlling him the best he could. I doubt killing the man was on his mind. And the last time I checked, a civilian is allowed to use a choke hold to protect themselves and others. Imo.

So, the guy knew about his warrant? No. There was no imminent threat.