NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #11

[goathairjones]

At this point it has been clearly established (through police statements and viewing the location of the dumped remains on video & photo) that the intact bodies were dumped out of a vehicle (not carried into the brush) and the smaller body parts were within throwing distance from the road. Also, the varying stages of decay indicate that the SK held on to some or all of the bodies for a considerable amount of time after they were killed (possibly indicating that he made all of the dumps within a very short time frame).

Seaslug,

That has NOT been clearly established!!! As a matter of fact, I would bet every last dollar that they were carried a short distance (4-10 feet) into the brush. It would be much too risky to drive a car into the brush and dump the body. The car could get slightly damaged (evidence) or even stuck in the un-compacted soil. The guy stopped his car, got out real quick, grabbed the body and lunged into the bramble and dropped it just inside the bramble. There is NO way he dumped them directly from the vehicle. I don't know where you got your info from but it's definitely wrong.

 

[truthspider]

Why the doc called SG's mother is kind of hard to figure, but perhaps he was drunk? That's a whole other matter entirely.

It's not hard to figure if he did something nefarious, he would then have the motive to mislead the search away from himself and towards MP.

The reason many people don't see this case for what it is is that we all suffer from prejudice. We trust certain people based on the way they dress, act, speak, their titles, their income, etc. Successful criminals understand this, so they manipulate trust and positions of power to gain access to their victims and control them. It would certainly be convenient if this serial killer looked and acted like the monster he is, but since we know he has been successfully murdering people for over 15 years we can assume that he is a master at convincing society he is not a monster. Predators like this operate under the cover of normality and are very good at posing as nice guys, they are often considered upstanding pillars in their communities.

Most predators are not capable of a prolonged pursuit instead they use cover so they can surprise unsuspecting prey. Their are countless examples of predators throughout nature that resemble a non-threatening or attractive organism for the purpose of deceiving their prey and landing an easy meal that literally comes right to their doorstep.

 

[Seaslug44]

Seaslug,

That has NOT been clearly established!!! As a matter of fact, I would bet every last dollar that they were carried a short distance (4-10 feet) into the brush. It would be much too risky to drive a car into the brush and dump the body. The car could get slightly damaged (evidence) or even stuck in the un-compacted soil. The guy stopped his car, got out real quick, grabbed the body and lunged into the bramble and dropped it just inside the bramble. There is NO way he dumped them directly from the vehicle. I don't know where you got your info from but it's definitely wrong.

GH, I am extremely confused. I thought you were from the area. If you indeed are, then you are well aware that Ocean Parkway has a flat grassy shoulder that varies between 15 and 25 feet wide along the stretch where the GB4 were found. There is also virtually no curb there either.

"Damage to Vehicle"?????

I think not.

Please revisit the videos and photos of the media footage showing the skeletal remains of several of the GB4 victims.

Your assumption that he got out of his vehicle and walked the bodies into the bramble is nothing more than an assumption. At no time did any police official report that to be the case. However, they did in fact state more than once that all likelyhood the bodies were dumped from a vehicle.

This statement by the police commissioner Richard Dormer is well documented;

They were likely dumped from a vehicle as long as two years ago based on the state of decomposition.

I do not recall him ever stating that anyone carried any bodies into the bramble.

This photo was taken by a photographer who while he was standing on the grassy shoulder. You can see how even a Toyota Prius could drive right up to the dump site without sustaining damage. The bodies were literally a foot into the brush as illustrated here;

You can also see here how the grass shoulder is twenty feet wide and the remains of this victim were found just at the foot of the brushline;

Even if the SK had to get out of his vehicle, he would only have to drag the remains less than 18" to where he left them.

I don't know why you are always so quick to attack and attempt to discredit when your entire argument is based purely upon your assumptions. If you have actual facts that prove that these photos or LE's statements are fabricated then please share.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It's not hard to figure if he did something nefarious, he would then have the motive to mislead the search away from himself and towards MP.

The reason many people don't see this case for what it is is that we all suffer from prejudice. We trust certain people based on the way they dress, act, speak, their titles, their income, etc. Successful criminals understand this, so they manipulate trust and positions of power to gain access to their victims and control them. It would certainly be convenient if this serial killer looked and acted like the monster he is, but since we know he has been successfully murdering people for over 15 years we can assume that he is a master at convincing society he is not a monster. Predators like this operate under the cover of normality and are very good at posing as nice guys, they are often considered upstanding pillars in their communities.

Most predators are not capable of a prolonged pursuit instead they use cover so they can surprise unsuspecting prey. Their are countless examples of predators throughout nature that resemble a non-threatening or attractive organism for the purpose of deceiving their prey and landing an easy meal that literally comes right to their doorstep.

You have some points there. Still the natural predators you use example hunt prey from other species than their own, which gives their prey a different set of skills and abilities. Someone who hunts an antelope needs to be fast or at least faster in acceleration or a group tactics. However, those human predators hunt humans in a human society. Which means they are not that different in physically appearance and their skill that is not as different than a lion's from an antelope one's. So well, it's a little bit of a limping example, I guess.
And all interpretation of Dr Hackett's behavior are based on a simple implicit fact: That he would know there were some bodies out there, or also some dismembered bodies, since you seem to handle all bodies as one case. However, when Hackett called the mother, when he made the fist weird statements, none of the bodies were yet found. So, if Hackett is not the SK or one of them, what he could have tried was to cover-up or distance himself for a minor crime, for example to knew that Brewer had a little drug party and a girl ran out and didn't come back. If he would have known, what would be found later, he probably would have been much careful.

 

[goathairjones]

Seaslug,

I drove the Ocean Parkway to and from work every weekday for 6 years back in the 90's. I know the terrain well and I know the soil conditions. And I also have been down there since the bodies were found and know how far each of them were dumped into the bramble. The photos you show actually have all of the bramble cut away in a 10'x10' swath to assist in the investigation. Those bodies were not dumped right along the edge of the bramble. They were placed at least 4 feet into the brush and concealed by that brush. Any body dumped directly from a vehicle would be clearly visible from the road. These bodies were not readily visible from the road!

And the SK would not drive into the bramble for fear of getting stuck or sinking into the uncompacted soil. It's hard to tell where the dirt ends and the marsh begins down there. You could sink in at any point. And that's not an option for this guy. He would also not risk ripping a part off his vehicle to leave behind as evidence.

When Dormer said they were "dumped" he was using a generic term. Look the word "dump" up in the dictionary and you will see that it has multiple meanings. He was basically saying that the bodies were "unloaded" in that area.

 

[Peter Brendt]

GH, I am extremely confused. I thought you were from the area. If you indeed are, then you are well aware that Ocean Parkway has a flat grassy shoulder that varies between 15 and 25 feet wide along the stretch where the GB4 were found. There is also virtually no curb there either.

"Damage to Vehicle"?????

I think not.

Please revisit the videos and photos of the media footage showing the skeletal remains of several of the GB4 victims.

Your assumption that he got out of his vehicle and walked the bodies into the bramble is nothing more than an assumption. At no time did any police official report that to be the case. However, they did in fact state more than once that all likelyhood the bodies were dumped from a vehicle.

This statement by the police commissioner Richard Dormer is well documented;



I do not recall him ever stating that anyone carried any bodies into the bramble.

This photo was taken by a photographer who while he was standing on the grassy shoulder. You can see how even a Toyota Prius could drive right up to the dump site without sustaining damage. The bodies were literally a foot into the brush as illustrated here;

You can also see here how the grass shoulder is twenty feet wide and the remains of this victim were found just at the foot of the brushline;

Even if the SK had to get out of his vehicle, he would only have to drag the remains less than 18" to where he left them.

I don't know why you are always so quick to attack and attempt to discredit when your entire argument is based purely upon your assumptions. If you have actual facts that prove that these photos or LE's statements are fabricated then please share.

I suggest, you make a little experiment. Pack something half-soft in burlap and put it in the back of a Prius. First problem, you have to bend down and at least pull the body out, which calls for some strength (and you may have noticed to get the body in there first had also demanded some strength).
You would also notice, that, if you push the body out (for example in a van from the second row space), the body ends up behind the car. So unless you park the car perpendicular to the road, which would even bear more risk because of the unusual behavior, you can't just toss out a body of a Prius or anything with the only door big enough to handle a body in the back. You will end up with a body on the grassy should and still have to bring it down to the bushes.
Second thing, I ask you take a VERY close look on the third picture you posted. You can see, there is a gap in the bushes. This gap has a nearly rectangular shape and the remains are in this gap. This hole in the vegetation was made after the remains were found to give CSU space to work. So in fact, the body was IN the bushes according to your own evidence material and there was no way to just drop a body from a vehicle with back door and it would roll in that far.
And last but not least, the body drops most likely happened at night. Unlike the CSU, the perp could just place some flood lights to make sure he was right on the grassy shoulder or a few inches too far. He couldn't even use his headlights, Oak Beach is not so far away. So this happened in the dark. Think about that.
On a personal side note: You are very fast in jumping on everybody, very fast in quoting Dormer (who tried for weeks to deny, there even is an SK), very fast in stopping every chain of thought. However, I have as of yet to see something constructive from you. Maybe some ideas are right, maybe not, but at least they are ideas, they can be checked out for their probability. You on the other hand appear to be in the business of serial killing ideas leaving everything with nothing but empty hands. Only in cases like this, you have to go through the maze and occasionally hit dead ends till you find the way through. Not just sit and grump.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Seaslug,

I drove the Ocean Parkway to and from work every weekday for 6 years back in the 90's. I know the terrain well and I know the soil conditions. And I also have been down there since the bodies were found and know how far each of them were dumped into the bramble. The photos you show actually have all of the bramble cut away in a 10'x10' swath to assist in the investigation. Those bodies were not dumped right along the edge of the bramble. They were placed at least 4 feet into the brush and concealed by that brush. Any body dumped directly from a vehicle would be clearly visible from the road. These bodies were not readily visible from the road!

And the SK would not drive into the bramble for fear of getting stuck or sinking into the uncompacted soil. It's hard to tell where the dirt ends and the marsh begins down there. You could sink in at any point. And that's not an option for this guy. He would also not risk ripping a part off his vehicle to leave behind as evidence.

When Dormer said they were "dumped" he was using a generic term. Look the word "dump" up in the dictionary and you will see that it has multiple meanings. He was basically saying that the bodies were "unloaded" in that area.

If the perp would have driven his car in the brambles late in 2010, the damage to the plants would be easy to verify since the younger branches would be thinner and a little brighter in color than the old ones. So at least at one dump site, there would be a difference too hard to ignore for CSU. So the maximum, the killer could have done was parking on the grassy shoulder. Which proves your point even more.
When it comes to Dormer, I am not sure if he knows at all what he is trying to say. So I wouldn't exclude he really thought, like Seaslug, the bodies were just dropped out of a car. You know, he isn't very fit in this business and misses occasional details but believes firmly in his mental superiority when spurting out his assumptions as facts of evidence like quality. Talking about Dormer, of course.

 

[Clem Snide]

My feeling is that once these women were dead they were the equivalent of trash to him and he would not have wanted to put a whole lot of effort into getting rid of them. It seems like he just wanted the bodies not to be found, but wasn't even willing to go to great lengths to do conceal them. I would guess he pulled to the shoulder and carried the bodies from there. He seems smart enough not to want to leave any tire tracks on the grass or dirt.

The question is, how far can the average man throw a 120 pound woman? I feel that I could toss a person four feet into vegetation, but I've never tried it. I have a friend who's about 130, but -and I'm only guessing here- I think she'd be quite upset if I picked her up and tossed her.

Was tying them in burlap a way to aid in the effort of throwing the bodies? Could he swing the bag by the drawstrings (if they have any) and get better distance that way? Did it camouflage the bodies and blend in with the brush?

 

[Peter Brendt]

My feeling is that once these women were dead they were the equivalent of trash to him and he would not have wanted to put a whole lot of effort into getting rid of them. It seems like he just wanted the bodies not to be found, but wasn't even willing to go to great lengths to do conceal them. I would guess he pulled to the shoulder and carried the bodies from there. He seems smart enough not to want to leave any tire tracks on the grass or dirt.

The question is, how far can the average man throw a 120 pound woman? I feel that I could toss a person four feet into vegetation, but I've never tried it. I have a friend who's about 130, but -and I'm only guessing here- I think she'd be quite upset if I picked her up and tossed her.

Was tying them in burlap a way to aid in the effort of throwing the bodies? Could he swing the bag by the drawstrings (if they have any) and get better distance that way? Did it camouflage the bodies and blend in with the brush?

I stumble always over the phone calls to Melissa Barthelmy's sister and Melissa's bf/pimp. See, for the normal sadist 101-type, it would make sense, in a twisted way, to call family, someone who loved Melissa. That would give him an opportunity to torture the family mentally. But why call her pimp? I know, I repeat myself here, but a call to the pimp of a dead escort doesn't offer much chances to torture him mentally.
They both, Terry and Melissa's sister described the caller as an older white dude, most of the time drunk. Okay, you can hear, whether a caller is old, maybe and with a certain risk to be entirely wrong. If it is purely by the voice, a smoker for example sounds easily ten years older. And there is always the chance to disguise the voice. Hey, I can do for example a pretty good Lee Marvin, even singing. So as long as this isn't corroborated by forensic language analysis, for example certain speech patterns or the use of out-of-date terms, I take the part with "old" with a grain of salt. Other parts of the profile would point out about 35-45, but that's also to be enjoyed with care because age is the hardest to estimate part in a profile and bears the highest risks of failure.
Then, the guy was drunk? Okay, how do you hear in a phone call whether someone is drunk? Slurry speech, slower language and missing or changed syllables. This part is interesting. Because a drunk black with education normally sounds pretty much like a drunken white. The more if the being drunk is only faked. Because why would someone who wants to torture someone mentally, be drunk? He wants to enjoy it, he needs his senses together to miss no detail for his later reliving. Unless of course, it wasn't about mental torture at all.
So that leaves us with a guy. That isn't a surprise, we can conclude that from other parts of the profile as well. But the whole torture thing makes no sense. The rare bits and pieces in the media talk about insults of Melissa's life style, the repeated pointing out of what her lifestyle brought her in and threats to the sister if she goes down the same road in the calls made to the sister. The caller basically didn't torture, he did justify his deed. This is mixed with a lot of anger, so it isn't a clear pattern, but visible enough. Too bad, LE holds the transcripts under lock and key, if they were smart enough to get the calls in the first place, which I personally doubt because in the beginning, they didn't care about the missing escort too much at all. And the family doesn't give us more details either.
The interesting part is, what the bf/pimp had to say. There is the name Mickey Mouse (under which also a burner phone was registered). And Mickey Mouse talks about what did Melissa and Terry in bed, what kind of sex they had, what kind of tattoos she and her bf have. Mickey Mouse proved, he was the one who got Melissa. But it's not really torture. Look at the subject, look at the obsession with the details of Melissa's sex life. This feels more like a reliving of a second hand experience.
Why I ride this horse as comment to a post talking about disposal of the victims? It tells us little hints about how he felt about his victims. The unceremoniously dropping right in the bushes would normally indicate, they were objects to him - or trash, as you wrote -, but the phone calls point in another direction. The victim Melissa had a meaning to him, also after she was already dead because I doubt, he kept her that long. And if she had a meaning for him even after death, this is probably also true for the other three. And if you look at each victim alone, they were just thrown into the bushes. But as group, they were carefully spread out over a stretch of roadside, just hidden enough to prevent them from discovery, but not so far away, someone who knows, they are there couldn't catch at least a glimpse at the place in a drive by. So yes, you are right, they were maybe tossed, maybe just rolled into the brambles or maybe really carried in and dropped, but I'm not so sure, they had no meaning to him. I think, he re-visited them a lot of times. At least always somewhere in early June before he went on the hunt for the next.

 

[shadowraiths]

However, there is an open question: If the phone calls were to prolong the torture, I can understand, why he called the family. One can torture people who loved the victim that way. But why the pimp? That would only make sense, if the pimp wasn't a pimp but really a boyfriend who loved the victim or if the killer could at least assume that. What is your opinion about that detail?

I admittedly never bought the pimp's claim. After all, he claims an older "drunk" white male called him 30 times over a period of six months, and among other things, said, "I know where you be at." ( link ) Yeah, right. Older white males regularly resort to ebonic-like vernacular. Sure they do. For reference, from July 12th through August 26th, the killer made weekly calls to Melissa's little sister. Calls which LE confirmed, btw. Otherwise put, is the pimp's claim believable? Imnsho? Not in the least little bit.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I admittedly never bought the pimp's claim. After all, he claims an older "drunk" white male called him 30 times over a period of six months, and among other things, said, "I know where you be at." ( link ) Yeah, right. Older white males regularly resort to ebonic-like vernacular. Sure they do. For reference, from July 12th through August 26th, the killer made weekly calls to Melissa's little sister. Calls which LE confirmed, btw. Otherwise put, is the pimp's claim believable? Imnsho? Not in the least little bit.

The pimps claim is in my opinion for two reasons believable:

1.) LE found a throw-away registration for the phone with which the calls were made under the name of Mickey Mouse. In other words, the calls, the pimp got are also checked by LE.

2.) He had no reason to tell the story, there was no win, no profit, no emotional reward in it for telling that story. People, especially people with not so high IQs, don't lie without a reason. The reasons can be obscure, hard to understand or simply twisted, but they are always there. If someone tells a story without reason, it's normally, because it's the truth.

You noticed correctly the little glitch into Ebonics. The question about this is, would Terry express it that way while re-narrating the story? Sometimes, in low education/low income areas with mixed population, Ebonics is not 100% exclusive to one ethnicity because the one or other use is also transferred to whites who deal often with blacks.
But if not ... well, there goes the FBI profile of the usual white loner, does it? Then the killer would be likely a black male. And added the victimology to that, it would bring us to a profile much more like Bernard Jackson or Omar Thornton, wouldn't it?

 

[minazoe]

I think the caller was being condescending and using street talk. Don't be fooled.

 

[minazoe]

also..does our guy wear a Mickey Mouse watch? who is this mickey mouse character?

 

[Clem Snide]

also..does our guy wear a Mickey Mouse watch? who is this mickey mouse character?

A disposable phone that he used to call victims family members was found to be registered to one Mickey Mouse.

I guess he has a sense of humor, which will be an important coping mechanism in prison.

 

[bemo12]

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum, but this story has always interested me because I currently live in Manhattan and went to college on LI (Hofstra). I was just wondering if anyone has compiled an archive of all the information because while I did read every single post on here, I do seem to get confused by some of the acronyms (SY?) and also some of the posts seem to tangent in every different direction and I was just wondering if there is another place people are getting their info from.

My biggest fear is this case going cold and I really want to help in any way I can.

Thanks

 

[Peter Brendt]

A disposable phone that he used to call victims family members was found to be registered to one Mickey Mouse.

I guess he has a sense of humor, which will be an important coping mechanism in prison.

In fact, it gives us a little hint on his age. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck were far more popular when the now 40-50 year olds grew up then when the ones grw up who are now 25-35.

 

[truthspider]

In fact, it gives us a little hint on his age. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck were far more popular when the now 40-50 year olds grew up then when the ones grw up who are now 25-35.

I wholly agree with you. I would add that the killer suffers from psychosexual arrest and the childlike behaviors he exhibits when living out his fantasies are a result of this deficiency.

There is a term to describe the arrested psychological development of individuals who have spent the majority of their young adulthood locked in an academic institution. If someone enters a rigorous academic progam at the age of 14, a preparatory boarding school in New Hampshireand for example, and doesn't leave these types of institutions until 12 or 14 years later with their doctorate in say materials science, they may be a 28 year old phd but outside of their field of expertise they may not have developed much psychologically or socially. The term "tri" was used to describe someone who had done their undergrad, grad and doctorate work all at MIT and had an observable deficiency as a result.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I wholly agree with you. I would add that the killer suffers from psychosexual arrest and the childlike behaviors he exhibits when living out his fantasies are a result of this deficiency.

There is a term to describe the arrested psychological development of individuals who have spent the majority of their young adulthood locked in an academic institution. If someone enters a rigorous academic progam at the age of 14, a preparatory boarding school in New Hampshireand for example, and doesn't leave these types of institutions until 12 or 14 years later with their doctorate in say materials science, they may be a 28 year old phd but outside of their field of expertise they may not have developed much psychologically or socially. The term "tri" was used to describe someone who had done their undergrad, grad and doctorate work all at MIT and had an observable deficiency as a result.

I disagree with the psychosexual arrest theory for several reasons:

1.) Such an unsub would have a type of victim, a certain set of visual treats making a woman for him sexual attractive (or in another variant combined with surrogate killing, a set of visual treats reminding him to a female he hated). In the victimology of the GB4 there are not many similarities, which in itself is significant because it indicates a more generalized complex. As I wrote several times, I still think subcultural inferiority complex in this case and a sadistic tendencey in the secondary diagnosis.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I wholly agree with you. I would add that the killer suffers from psychosexual arrest and the childlike behaviors he exhibits when living out his fantasies are a result of this deficiency.

There is a term to describe the arrested psychological development of individuals who have spent the majority of their young adulthood locked in an academic institution. If someone enters a rigorous academic progam at the age of 14, a preparatory boarding school in New Hampshireand for example, and doesn't leave these types of institutions until 12 or 14 years later with their doctorate in say materials science, they may be a 28 year old phd but outside of their field of expertise they may not have developed much psychologically or socially. The term "tri" was used to describe someone who had done their undergrad, grad and doctorate work all at MIT and had an observable deficiency as a result.

And now I lost the other points from the last post, stupid me:

2.) The calling scheme appears more as justification than as torture. Justification is basically a consequence of remorse. Remorse however comes from two sources: Personal acquaintance with the victim or the wish to be personally acquainted with her (the classical stalker type) or because of a mindset including a pretty harsh set of ethical rules in conflict with each other. Like the good old Christian "You shall not kill" versus the merciless judging of prostitutes for example. Which isn't incompatible with psychosexual arrest on all levels.

3.) Under the assumption, Melassy Barthelmy's pimp is credible (I posted my reasons why I think, he is), "Mickey Mouse" spent a lot of time in those phone calls to paint colorful pictures of what he sexually did to Melissa. Which, in a case of psychosexual arrest, would be simply impossible because this guy just learned his d*** is not only useful in the bathroom.

 

[shadowraiths]

The pimps claim is in my opinion for two reasons believable:

1.) LE found a throw-away registration for the phone with which the calls were made under the name of Mickey Mouse. In other words, the calls, the pimp got are also checked by LE.

Not sure how you deduced this, since the pimp's claims are more of an, "oh, btw, the pimp said he got calls, too" In any event, I take issue with the fact that he claims he was called 30 times over eight months, whereas LE confirms that seven calls were made over a period of six weeks immediately following Melissa's disappearance ( link ). As for the Mickey Mouse bit? LE tracked down the calls of Melissa's clients, and one of her clients had registered their phone to "Mickey Mouse." In other words, perhaps M-squared is the killer, perhaps he's not.

2.) He had no reason to tell the story, there was no win, no profit, no emotional reward in it for telling that story.

I respectfully disagree. There are reasons to concoct the story, the least being the celebrity angle. He's getting attention, the reporter is telling his story. Moreover, there's the one-upmanship. The sister received 7 calls over a period of six weeks. He claims he received 30 over a period of eight months. That's just over the top. I don't buy it.

You noticed correctly the little glitch into Ebonics. The question about this is, would Terry express it that way while re-narrating the story? Sometimes, in low education/low income areas with mixed population, Ebonics is not 100% exclusive to one ethnicity because the one or other use is also transferred to whites who deal often with blacks.

Agreed. One only need consider Eminem, to see that sort of thing. My point is not about race per se, rather, dialect being in conflict with alleged age. In other words, the sort of dialect conveyed in that story is more recent and not something that supports the "older white male" claim.

But if not ... well, there goes the FBI profile of the usual white loner, does it? Then the killer would be likely a black male. And added the victimology to that, it would bring us to a profile much more like Bernard Jackson or Omar Thornton, wouldn't it?

Well, the FBI profile of usual mid-20s white loner over-generalizes with no basis in science, anyway. *shrugs*

That being said, I'll play. Let's say the pimp is telling the truth... even if it's a bit exaggerated. You rightly ponder, why would the perp call the pimp? Calling the family is obvious but why the pimp? The answer to that Q, imnsho, is fairly simple. The perp is marking his territory, so to speak. Letting the pimp know that not only does he have the pimp's girl but he knows enough about the pimp he could show up anytime he pleases. While arguably a veiled threat, the real message is about power. It's the sort of puffing up that males of our species often engage in, even in non-threatening, peace-space.