NY - LISK Bodies found as of December 10, 2011 Thread #13

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I don't know what the "forum" knows, and I can't speak for the "forum". Some people on this forum are enigmas wrapped inside of a sk. I don't remember if I uploaded the pdf with the marker tool removed, that was in july... Anyone who opens the pdf in acrobat reader can pull off the black marker.... smh..

FYI...I don't use acrobat. I hate it cuz in terms of size and memory it's a huuuge hog. It behaves more like a virus, IMHO. With the pdf reader I use, I cannot remove the redacted portions to reveal anything. It gives the impression that it's a part of the document.

What was 48 Hrs thinking?

Thanks again for sharing your docs!
 
FYI...I don't use acrobat. I hate it cuz in terms of size and memory it's a huuuge hog. It behaves more like a virus, IMHO. With the pdf reader I use, I cannot remove the redacted portions to reveal anything. It gives the impression that it's a part of the document.

What was 48 Hrs thinking?

Probably about lunch break, or that facebook conversation they were reading, they def were not thinking about reading the acrobat manual to find out how to lock a pdf document or preserving the privacy of the victim's family.
 
I don't think an actual SK would be so obvious as to post on a public forum even if it's anonymous.

And celebrities don't read about themselves in the newspaper?
It's human nature to get involved when people are talking about you, and we know sk's aren't the most disciplined humans. Many of them have the tendency to involve themselves in the investigation regardless of the risk it poses to their freedom.

Beyond those basics, in this particular case the SK is still free (sort of) and is motivated to not be a suspect.
 
Anyone else think that LE is going to just hope that Shannan's case "goes away" from the spotlight? I don't think they're going to release any more information.
 
Anyone else think that LE is going to just hope that Shannan's case "goes away" from the spotlight? I don't think they're going to release any more information.

I get the feeling that Shannan's mother will not allow that to happen. They're having a vigil at Oak Beach for her today. Mari Gilbert has a good following of people supporting her and helping her keep Shannan's name in the papers. They won't rest until they have answers.
 
Tugela
You say drowning in a swamp when you are high and running through a swamp IS common.

Can you give me give me some examples of similar incidents. I did a quite web search and I could only find one case where an adult (17 year old drowned after drinking).

This Oak Beach marsh/swamp/wetlands is not an impenetrable area like the Florida or Louisiana swamps. There are no alligators or water snakes, there are some dry areas.

Please give me some examples where an adult drowned in a Long Island swamp. If it is common it must have happened many times before.

If for the last 30 years on Long Island, an average of one or two adults a year drown in the swamp accidentally, I will accept your assertion that drowning in a swamp is common

I am not being argumentative, but some facts are needed to prove your assertion.
 
"Alcohol Use. Alcohol use is involved in up to half of adolescent and adult deaths associated with water recreation and about one in five reported boating fatalities.9, 10 Alcohol influences balance, coordination, and judgment, and its effects are heightened by sun exposure and heat.11"


http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html

"Almost half of the people who drowned were alone in the water at the time of the incident.
Of people over age 14, almost half the drownings were associated with alcohol and/or drug use."

http://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3112/


Keep in mind, that we have only anecdotal evidence that Shannan Gilbert was drinking and/or taking drugs. With the absence of any toxicological findings, we cannot know with any degree of certainty that she was on anything when she died.
 
Dwntwnslim,

Yes alcohol and drug use is closely co-related in drownings. No doubt SG was under the influence of something. But we have to differentiate the Oak Beach wetlands from an open body of water or even a swimming pool.

Again I ask, how many previous drownings in Long Island wetlands?
 
Half truths are a very important notion, many sk doctors utilize half truths, in their mind they aren't even murdering, they are putting someone to sleep with an injection, they have to do it all the time at work, it's no biggy. Poisoning someone is a crime for the non-confrontational, more common with women serial killers but also doctor serial killers. Slipping a crushed pill into her drink at the party is so simple, he could have done it right under everyone's nose. He would know that eventually he would be the one with the power and the control, when everyone else around that night looked to CPH to help her. Just like the fireman that sets the fire, so he can come to the rescue, exert power and control. This drowning story could be a half truth too, if he drowned his sedated victim.

The more I learn, the more believable the halfway house line is coming from him. He does alot of "treating of the home bound" and "patient advocacy" and "we don't treat rehab patients here" but he does treat them at their homes doesn't he?

I know I am right about Jane Doe from 1995, she was a patient, a patient with no support network, a patient who was home bound from the operations on her ankles and legs, and CPH was happy to treat her in privacy, outside of a hospital.

Another half-truth: "for runaway children" all of those unidentifiable victims were run-aways, and everyone knows it. Now I really see why they had those "tough couple of days"...
It's all becoming crystal clear...



"She said Hackett told her he runs a halfway house for runaway children, that her daughter visited him on May 1, 2010, and that she left that day with her driver"

"I think he did a great job," said Dr. Mark Henry, chairman of emergency medicine at University Medical Center in Stony Brook. "He was a patient advocate . . . a physician who was willing to get involved."

-Newsday (Melville, NY)
November 24, 1997
Edition: NASSAU AND SUFFOLK
Section: NEWS
Page: A04
Topics:
Index Terms:
SUFFOLK COUNTY.C PETER HACKETT.EMERGENCY.COUNSELING.
Suffolk's Trauma Care Bruised / Disputes still swirl around ex- director
Author: Elizabeth Moore. STAFF WRITER
Newsday File Photo by John H. Cornell Jr.-Dr. C. Peter Hackett,
Copyright (c) 1997 Newsday, Inc.
Record Number: 963248187



OK, plain and simple, which group of people in the following article is telling either a (1) Lie, or (2) a "Half-Truth"? If there's some other possible option here, please let me know.

Either (A) Homicide Investigators, or (B) Mari and Sherre.

Here's the article: http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?regionId=1&articleId=279098&position=1&news_type=news

Please note:

From the article: "She [Mari] says she doesn't necessarily believe Hackett had anything to do with her sister's disappearance, but wants the authorities to hear her."

From her LISK post: "I believe Hackett DID see Shannan that nite, and tried to help her but either he was too late or was Strongly told to “walk away”."
http://longislandserialkiller.com/2011/10/bs-9/

What I make of all this is that Mari had been talking to locals who didn't like CPH and had their own "conspiracy theories" and just wanted CPH investigated more, so she made up a "half-truth" about what CPH said on that call. Can you think of any locals that may have had the Gilberts' ears? Like Flukeyou?
 
Dwntwnslim,

Yes alcohol and drug use is closely co-related in drownings. No doubt SG was under the influence of something. But we have to differentiate the Oak Beach wetlands from an open body of water or even a swimming pool.

Again I ask, how many previous drownings in Long Island wetlands?


Not necessarily. Granted I am not familiar with the topography, environment, ecology etc. where Shannan Gilbert Might have drowned.

I do have over 10 years of experience as a lifeguard on both fresh water and saltwater beaches, however. I see this drowning Possibility from that perspective.

I'm not going to post my resume to verify my credentials because I enjoy my privacy, so you may take my assessment of a Possible drowning with as much salt as you see fit.

How deep was the water when Ms. Gilbert hypothetically drowned? How much area did the water cover? Where were the deepest to shallowest points? What was the average water depth? Were there any sudden drop-offs on Ms. Gilbert's possible route? What was her condition prior to entering the water? Could she have incurred any head injuries prior to her entering the water? Was she injured at all? If so, where on her body and when did she receive the injury(ies)? What was the average water temperature? What was the average air temperature? Was it dry or humid at that time of day? If it was humid, what was the humidity level? Was Ms. Gilbert taking any medication? How much alcohol did she drink if she drank any? Did she partake of any illicit substances? If so, what and how much? Did Ms. Gilbert know how to swim? What was she wearing? These were just a few things from the top of my head. All of these factors should be be considered and analyzed to either rule in or rule out the Possibility that Ms. Gilbert drowned, IMHO.

One scenario that should also be considered is the Possibility of a "dry drowning". A "dry drowning" is not technically a drowning. It would be more accurate to characterize it as a cardiac arrest. This happens when there is a large temperature difference between the air and the water. Upon entering the water (Any depth), the human body experiences a system shock and initiates a cardiac arrest. A dry drowning is suspected when there is an absence of water in the lungs at autopsy. The person who suffered a "dry drowning" dies before aspirating any water.

These are just a few things that should be considered when ruling in or ruling out drowning as a Possibility, IMHO. Although, from my experience, alcohol/drugs and any body of water at any depth, often signaled an impending rescue.

Personally speaking, I think Shannan Gilbert was murdered. But, I cannot dismiss the idea of Shannan Gilbert dying from drowning based on my experience. It is a logical conclusion to consider, IMHO.
 
I don't think we know what K9 resources were available or which ones were used, so IMO, unless all their dogs are trained as water cadaver dogs (highly unlikely), they would not have brought in such a specialized K9 to what was initially a missing person search.

We don't know the timespan between SG's disappearance and the K9 search, but if it was a short timeframe, the decomp process may not have been far enough advanced to be detected by cadaver dogs.

2 hours after death for the 'death scent' to be created, of course allowing for environmental differences {heat, in water, etc} IMO

I did learn allot about that in Madeleine McCann's case. God Bless little Madeleine.
 
2 hours after death for the 'death scent' to be created, of course allowing for environmental differences {heat, in water, etc} IMO

I did learn allot about that in Madeleine McCann's case. God Bless little Madeleine.

That's interesting. In another thread (forgive me, I don't remember which one) people were discussing cadaver dogs and somebody who trains them said a person will leave a scent within seconds of death.

ETA: I think it was the Lisa Irwin thread. If I find it, I will come back and post what the dog trainer over there said.
 
Back in August, one of the psychics who walked the OBA community with Mari zoned in directly upon the direction of Shannan's body-

“Something happened here,” Joe says. “I’m picking up a whole lot of vibrations right here.” Joe is of partial Native American descent and his manner of speaking, the intonation and cadence, has a certain indigenous quality to it that I enjoy.
I look around at the terrain. It’s near the space in the reeds by the basketball court. There are no houses directly in sight yet...

We continue down Anchor Way to where it intersects with the road named The Bayou. This is supposedly where Shannan’s jacket was found. We look to Joe for what he’s sensing.

He shakes his head. “I felt more back the other way,” he says.
-Written by Jim Jones Here

Sick right?

His perception was 100 percent accurate!
 
OK, plain and simple, which group of people in the following article is telling either a (1) Lie, or (2) a "Half-Truth"? If there's some other possible option here, please let me know.

Either (A) Homicide Investigators, or (B) Mari and Sherre.

Here's the article: http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?regionId=1&articleId=279098&position=1&news_type=news

Please note:

From the article: "She [Mari] says she doesn't necessarily believe Hackett had anything to do with her sister's disappearance, but wants the authorities to hear her."

From her LISK post: "I believe Hackett DID see Shannan that nite, and tried to help her but either he was too late or was Strongly told to “walk away”."
http://longislandserialkiller.com/2011/10/bs-9/

What I make of all this is that Mari had been talking to locals who didn't like CPH and had their own "conspiracy theories" and just wanted CPH investigated more, so she made up a "half-truth" about what CPH said on that call. Can you think of any locals that may have had the Gilberts' ears? Like Flukeyou?

I totally agree with you Inspectr. I am going to take this one step further and state that Mari's story about a May 1st or May 2nd phone call is unproven. She has not produced any phone records to back her claim that the doctor called her the day after Shannan went missing. Yes, there are the two other phone calls. But check this out regarding those calls-

Jim Jones was the closest unbiased person to Mari during this investigation. Jim Jones is a reporter and was a very close friend of Mari's. This is a direct quote from Jim regarding the phone calls

It’s been widely reported in the media that the doctor lied about having ever called Mari. But to be fair, I have yet to see any footage of this or even any quotes that provide context. All I have seen is footage of him denying ever seeing Shannan and saying that he hadn’t even heard her name until a week or so after the night she went missing.

“And when there was proof that you called me, you admitted it,” Mari adds.

“I had long since told the police that I called you. Because Alex (Shannan’s boyfriend) asked me to call you,” the doctor responds.

The doctor goes on to tell us that he gave Alex his card to give to Mari and everyone else.

“But you called me on the second not the sixth. Way before anyone knew Shannan was missing.”

It’s an important point because if he called her on the 2nd it could suggest that he got the number from Shannan or from her phone, rather than from Alex. Though I personally have never seen the record that Mari cites.

“I didn’t call you on the second. How could I call you on the second?” he says, walking away a few steps in apparent aggravation.

“That’s what I wanna know…,” Mari states.

“Well, I don’t…no one has any proof of that,” he says, returning to us.

“The phone records are proof.”

“You’ll have to …Show them to the police, please,” he says.

“They have them,” Mari replies.

The doctor goes on to tell us that all he did was meet Alex and the driver as they were coming down the street asking questions and that he invited them in to talk. He says he told them to contact Suffolk County police as well as the Jersey City police and that he also told them to check with Shannan’s family to make sure that her phone was turned on. He also says that he met Shannan’s sisters the following week when they came that Mother’s Day. And that he returned the phone calls that Alex asked him to make but that was it.
“All this stuff about a rehab or something,” he adds. “I don’t have any rehab. I don’t do rehab.”

“So why would you say that to me?” Mari asks.

“I didn’t,” he says...

But he says that when he doesn’t talk to the press they just make things up...


“Because they had said something about rehab,” he says, “and I had said yes I said I mentioned that. Since she had been in rehab before that I was hoping that if she was in rehab, since rehabs don’t usually tell you who they have there unless ya know you go and prove you’re family, that maybe 28 days later you’d get some good news that she had come back out of rehab. And that’s what I said.”

I head straight to a great floor-to-ceiling bookshelf in the living room. You can tell a lot about a man by his bookshelf. The first book I see is eye level and it’s called “The Last Happy Hour.” Sounds like a book I’d like to read - or maybe write, I think to myself. Its author has the same last name as the doctor so I ask his wife what the relation is and she tells me that it’s the doctor’s father and that it’s a book about soldiers in World War II...

While we’re waiting for them to return, I turn to the doctor’s wife and ask about the security videotape being “wiped clean” by someone. She responds that it runs on a two week loop and gets taped over automatically. That’s all it is. Nothing more, she says.
From Jim Jone's Blog

So there you have every logical explanation right from a very close source. Mari thinks she received a call from CPH on May 2nd regarding Shannan and the rehab. The doctor says "prove it" because the phone records DO NOT. Mari can't be certain at this point because very early on she gave her phone records to the police. As you pointed out Inspectr, Dormer (whose department has those phone records) has stated that the alleged phone call accusation has been "Debunked".

Would Dormer really say that if the phone records suggested otherwise?

Would CPH strongly suggest that Mari show her phone records to the police unless he was absolutely certain that his and her phone records do not support the May 2nd phone call accusation?

We also have the actual truth here regarding the Rehab confusion. CPH states that HE DID mention rehab. But not because he ran one but because Alex & Michael told him that she was in rehab once before and CPH told Mari on the phone that he was hoping that maybe she is in rehab again and that is why nobody has heard from her.

We also are enlightened to the fact that other than what Mari claims, there truly is no footage or proof that CPH ever denied the phone calls. I think one of the reasons why SCPD has stated that he is not a suspect is because as they said, he has been very cooperative and honest with them. I am willing to bet that CPH did indeed disclose to the police about his phone calls very early on in this investigation (long before Mari ever went public about the phone calls). And I am willing to bet that when they interviewed AD & MP, both men confirmed CPH's story by stating to the police that they indeed gave CPH the phone numbers and asked him to call. If anything, more focus should be put on MP & AD to inquire as to exactly why they chose to push those phone numbers on to the doc.

We even get the truth here about the video tapes. It's a 2 week loop (which is common with those old VHS or 8mm tape systems). My new system in my house has a 1TB hard drive. So even at the D1 (high quality) recording level with 16 cameras with audio recording at once, I have like a year's worth of time before old footage gets recorded over (and five years with the online backup). But on those old systems that were installed before hard drives and the internet, 48 hours to 2 weeks was the norm before old footage was erased. Blame the SCPD on that misstep. They should have asked for the tape right away instead of waiting a few months or a year.

CPH reveals here that he knows that if he doesn't speak to the media they "make stuff up" about him.

No kidding.

That pretty much explains all of the political B.S. in that old Newsday article about him losing his old position with Suffolk County.

Seems to be some very logical and reasonable explanations for everything.

Unless Mari can produce actual phone records (not retyped) that prove that CPH called her on May 2nd (or if the police are willing to state that it is true) we simply cannot trust the word of someone going through so much emotional stress. I say this with no disrespect for Mair. Just saying... if I were on the jury I would say "show me the phone records certified by the phone company". I simply could not count upon someone's memory from almost two years ago.

And, as you can see, this is where Truth learned about the book by CPH's father (this blog by Jim Jones has been posted many times here before).
 
What's not so obvious is how SG would have made it 3/4 of the way through that area in the dark, almost out the other side, when searchers / first responders on the scene were unable to access that very same swamp(?) in the daylight hours immediately after SG went missing.

What makes you think they couldn't?

Remember, they weren't looking for a victim of a serial killer until they found the other bodies. At the time they probably just did basic searches around readily reachable places, then left.
 
we have wetlands, we do not have swamps. I don't know where you are from, but I am from right here, and people don't drown in wetlands ever.

People getting high/drunk/ODed and dieing in obscure places where people dont usually die happens all the time. People who are not any of those things don't drown in that sort of environment because they have their wits and don't go there.
 
All MG has to do is ask her phone service provider to issue her another copy of the phone records. Hopefully, they still have records from May 2010.

As to the tapes...we read early on that the system taped over but that all recordings were backed up to some sort of hard drive...so there still would have been a record and it should have shown images of anyone passing that gate between 2:00 AM and 9:00 AM, May 1, 2010. That would include the LE response, MP & SG coming and possibly going, any guest or residents coming and/or going and anyone else who had occasion to approach the gatehouse and the cameras.

it would also prove whether JB opened the gate for MP or if he actually sat outside the gate, for any amount of time, before coming into the private community to retrieve or search for Shannan.
 
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