NY - LISK Bodies found as of December 10, 2011 Thread #13

[waltzingmatilda]

IDK about LI but on the coast of NC the mosquitos are flying on May 1 which is when Shannan disappeared.

Here are the weather conditions from May 1, 2010.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Shannan's belongings were found near the neighborhood behind a DR's house. Shannan was found just off Ocean PKY. I guess that I am trying to reconcile in my mind how the dog(s) missed finding her during all those searches. Former commissioner Dormer prematurely (IMO) declared when she was located that she went in there and drowned. But the poor girl almost made it all the way thru those wetlands to the PKY. As you can see from the link the sky was getting light & skies were clear while she was running so she had some visibility and the terrain must have been navigatible for her to make it that far.

I agree with MK, I think her body was placed there later. Blue has an impressive record of finding bodies, yet he couldn't find SG when she was right there the whole time.
BTW,
The search that yeilded Shannan's remains was allegedly from a tip according to Dormer yet he says she drowned. something just doesn't add up, IMO

Thanks for all your help!

wm

 

[Oriah]

IDK about LI but on the coast of NC the mosquitos are flying on May 1 which is when Shannan disappeared.

Here are the weather conditions from May 1, 2010.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

Shannan's belongings were found near the neighborhood behind a DR's house. Shannan was found just off Ocean PKY. I guess that I am trying to reconcile in my mind how the dog(s) missed finding her during all those searches. Former commissioner Dormer prematurely (IMO) declared when she was located that she went in there and drowned. But the poor girl almost made it all the way thru those wetlands to the PKY. As you can see from the link the sky was getting light & skies were clear while she was running so she had some visibility and the terrain must have been navigatible for her to make it that far.

I agree with MK, I think her body was placed there later. Blue has an impressive record of finding bodies, yet he couldn't find SG when she was right there the whole time.
BTW,
The search that yeilded Shannan's remains was allegedly from a tip according to Dormer yet he says she drowned. something just doesn't add up, IMO

Thanks for all your help!

wm

Do you know the GPS coordinates or cross address of where her body was found? I can look up the condition of the environment surrounding the 1st of May from that. TIA.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

I'll take a look around. In the meantime, if anyone knows this information please kindly post it for Oriah. TIA

Where are our locals when I need them, LOLz!

wm

ETA, Oriah, post #10 at this link gives an ariel view of the area. Still searching for GPS coordinates....

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157505"]New Search for Shannan Gilbert, Body found in Marsh - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Oriah, Here is an article about Blue and his trainer. Perhaps you can discern Blue's training from the details provided.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/18/n...bodies-key-role-for-officer-and-dog.html?_r=1

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, Here is an article about Blue and his trainer. Perhaps you can discern Blue's training from the details provided.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/18/n...bodies-key-role-for-officer-and-dog.html?_r=1

Thanks, waltzing I wish I could, lol! It sounds like this officers previous dog was a police K9- which is quite a bit different than an HRD dog. Perhaps he has since gone into scent discrimination work?

At any rate (just by looking at the satellite history and water/marsh/bramble/brush situation) I can see how even a well trained dog could miss remains in the area. Perhaps the dog could not reach the area of the remains at the time- alerted as close as could be gotten- but was out of sight of his handler who may have then called him back? Just a thought...

ETA: what is the LEO's thoughts on why Blue may have 'missed' remains during the first search? Is there anything in MSM about that?
If I were him, I'd be sweating bullets- just because it makes it look like the poor guy knew where to search.
Those must have been several very stressful searches. He's probably still trying to clear his head.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Former commissioner Dormer said that the terrain is difficult to traverse due to water and brambles. However, it looks like SG's personal items were recovered in an area without the brambles and closer to the neighborhood. Would Blue have picked up on that scent of her jeans, shoes, purse, lipgloss?

Please forgive my ignorance but I find this subject fascinating.

wm

 

[Oriah]

Former commissioner Dormer said that the terrain is difficult to traverse due to water and brambles. However, it looks like SG's personal items were recovered in an area without the brambles and closer to the neighborhood. Would Blue have picked up on that scent of her jeans, shoes, purse, lipgloss?

Please forgive my ignorance but I find this subject fascinating.

wm

Blue could very well have picked up scent from discarded personal belongings that had come into contact with SG.
My curiosity is whether or not it was HR scent, or tracking or trailing scent.
If it was HR scent, then (in my world anyway) SG was deceased prior to being separated from her belongings.

 

[inspctrgadget]

Just throwing this out for debate... if the CPH calls were exactly as evidence we have suggests (i.e. there were only 2 calls, they took place AFTER Shannan was known to be missing, he never said he had a rehab and he never said that Shannan stayed with him), is the doctor still a highly suspicious player in this, why or why not? I am pretty torn on this so any input would be appreciated.

Good question. The answer is NO!!!

Many on this board do not want to hear this. But pretend CPH had never met Diaz and Pak that day and never gave them his card. Pretend that he never called the family as requested. Pretend that Mari never had the opportunity to "mis-recall" both the timing and content of CPH's call. What do we have left? A very poorly done news report that said he was the last one to see her that night, that the last they saw was footprints in the sand? It's totally unreliable. There is no video, no interview date, no quotes - nothing. It's obviously just bad reporting. Fact is, CPH NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS THE LAST ONE TO SEE HER ALIVE. Just believe that, because its true.

CPH would be no more interesting to us than any of the other 500 people in that neighborhood. Police resources would not have been used investigating him.

For the poster that said he wasn't an upstanding citizen prior to this case (not you svpernin)...

He was most definitely an upstanding citizen, or he would not have been rehired for a better paying job. Just because he was an unpopular administrator, just because he was let go as the result of a political attack campaign, just because some people accused him of lying or being a bad EMT and just because some on this board falsely accused him of being a child neglecter and drug abuser - all this combined doesn't make him a bad citizen. As I've said before, he had just as many proponents as detractors. Also, accusing him of being a narcissist is at best intellectually irresponsible, unless you're a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.

So svpernin, we can just accept that what Mari said was an absolute, 100% fact and therefore some conspiracy must be afoot in Oak Beach, or we can think for ourselves and come to the conclusion that Shannan most likely died of accidental causes (medical, drowning or hypothermia).

Now that we've made that educated guess, the whole theory that the serial killer comes from Oak Beach at all comes into focus. We can easily guess that it is far less likely that the actual serial killer(s) comes from Oak Beach given than the mainland of Long Island is far more populated. Now we can reasonably surmise that Ocean Parkway was just a quiet, out of town location for a serial killer to dump his victims.

I believe that any who advance the CPH theory in whole or in part (or the theory that Shannan died of a homicide) are at this point clutching at straws.

 

[Lera213]

so this retired Sheriff I've been reading about has my mind wondering. Wonder if he is being protected and has a relationship with the ret. dr. things that make you go hrm.

 

[dcgrumpy]

Good question. The answer is NO!!!

Many on this board do not want to hear this. But pretend CPH had never met Diaz and Pak that day and never gave them his card. Pretend that he never called the family as requested. Pretend that Mari never had the opportunity to "mis-recall" both the timing and content of CPH's call. What do we have left? A very poorly done news report that said he was the last one to see her that night, that the last they saw was footprints in the sand? It's totally unreliable. There is no video, no interview date, no quotes - nothing. It's obviously just bad reporting. Fact is, CPH NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS THE LAST ONE TO SEE HER ALIVE. Just believe that, because its true.

CPH would be no more interesting to us than any of the other 500 people in that neighborhood. Police resources would not have been used investigating him.

For the poster that said he wasn't an upstanding citizen prior to this case (not you svpernin)...

He was most definitely an upstanding citizen, or he would not have been rehired for a better paying job. Just because he was an unpopular administrator, just because he was let go as the result of a political attack campaign, just because some people accused him of lying or being a bad EMT and just because some on this board falsely accused him of being a child neglecter and drug abuser - all this combined doesn't make him a bad citizen. As I've said before, he had just as many proponents as detractors. Also, accusing him of being a narcissist is at best intellectually irresponsible, unless you're a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.

So svpernin, we can just accept that what Mari said was an absolute, 100% fact and therefore some conspiracy must be afoot in Oak Beach, or we can think for ourselves and come to the conclusion that Shannan most likely died of accidental causes (medical, drowning or hypothermia).

Now that we've made that educated guess, the whole theory that the serial killer comes from Oak Beach at all comes into focus. We can easily guess that it is far less likely that the actual serial killer(s) comes from Oak Beach given than the mainland of Long Island is far more populated. Now we can reasonably surmise that Ocean Parkway was just a quiet, out of town location for a serial killer to dump his victims.

I believe that any who advance the CPH theory in whole or in part (or the theory that Shannan died of a homicide) are at this point clutching at straws.

ITA

I've never thought that the killer lives in Oak Beach. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's way too risky to be pulled over on the side of the road dumping bodies where a neighbor may recognize your car.

 

[svpernin]

Good question. The answer is NO!!!

Many on this board do not want to hear this. But pretend CPH had never met Diaz and Pak that day and never gave them his card. Pretend that he never called the family as requested. Pretend that Mari never had the opportunity to "mis-recall" both the timing and content of CPH's call. What do we have left? A very poorly done news report that said he was the last one to see her that night, that the last they saw was footprints in the sand? It's totally unreliable. There is no video, no interview date, no quotes - nothing. It's obviously just bad reporting. Fact is, CPH NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS THE LAST ONE TO SEE HER ALIVE. Just believe that, because its true.

CPH would be no more interesting to us than any of the other 500 people in that neighborhood. Police resources would not have been used investigating him.

For the poster that said he wasn't an upstanding citizen prior to this case (not you svpernin)...

He was most definitely an upstanding citizen, or he would not have been rehired for a better paying job. Just because he was an unpopular administrator, just because he was let go as the result of a political attack campaign, just because some people accused him of lying or being a bad EMT and just because some on this board falsely accused him of being a child neglecter and drug abuser - all this combined doesn't make him a bad citizen. As I've said before, he had just as many proponents as detractors. Also, accusing him of being a narcissist is at best intellectually irresponsible, unless you're a certified psychologist or psychiatrist.

So svpernin, we can just accept that what Mari said was an absolute, 100% fact and therefore some conspiracy must be afoot in Oak Beach, or we can think for ourselves and come to the conclusion that Shannan most likely died of accidental causes (medical, drowning or hypothermia).

Now that we've made that educated guess, the whole theory that the serial killer comes from Oak Beach at all comes into focus. We can easily guess that it is far less likely that the actual serial killer(s) comes from Oak Beach given than the mainland of Long Island is far more populated. Now we can reasonably surmise that Ocean Parkway was just a quiet, out of town location for a serial killer to dump his victims.

I believe that any who advance the CPH theory in whole or in part (or the theory that Shannan died of a homicide) are at this point clutching at straws.

Thanks for the well thought-out response, inspector.

My next question is... do we have any credible reports confirming that Maureen Brainard Barnes' phone last pinged near the Gilgo/OB area and that investigators did a helicopter search of that general area after Maureen went missing in 2008? I'm trying to disconnect the murders from the community if possible but... it ain't easy.

ETA: http://nymag.com/news/features/long-island-serial-killer-families-2011-6/index2.html

For three years, the NYPD had reported no trace of her—except, in 2008, for one cell-phone-signal ping off a Long Island tower, just a few miles from Gilgo Beach.

This is pretty much all I've found so far... I guess "a few miles" is open to interpretation.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

~respectfully snipped from inspectrgadget's above post~

I believe that any who advance the CPH theory in whole or in part (or the theory that Shannan died of a homicide) are at this point clutching at straws.

Inspectrgadget, I understand your point about CPH. However, until we have an official COD from the ME on Shannan's death, theories are all we have. We wouldn't be very good sleuths if we didn't question and theorize every possible angle.

Personally, someone who travels, perhaps between NY and FL, is my #1 suspect (for today anyway, lol!). I think you prolly know who I have in mind. This leads me to question who 'the drifter' was at JB's that night.

MOO

wm

 

[Oriah]

Sorry if this has already been gone over (trying to catch up here) but have HRD dogs alerted to any vehicles in these cases? And if so- which ones?

 

[inspctrgadget]

~respectfully snipped from inspectrgadget's above post~

I believe that any who advance the CPH theory in whole or in part (or the theory that Shannan died of a homicide) are at this point clutching at straws.

Inspectrgadget, I understand your point about CPH. However, until we have an official COD from the ME on Shannan's death, theories are all we have. We wouldn't be very good sleuths if we didn't question and theorize every possible angle.

Personally, someone who travels, perhaps between NY and FL, is my #1 suspect (for today anyway, lol!). I think you prolly know who I have in mind. This leads me to question who 'the drifter' was at JB's that night.

MOO

wm

I definitely respect your point of view waltzingmatilda, but it seems to me that we've been sleuthing the Shannan/CPH/Oak Beach angle almost to the exclusion of other angles of inquiry where we know for a positive fact that a serial killer was at work.

My guess is that you're referring to KU, but I think that angle is also a dead end given the strong likelihood that Shannan died of accidental causes.

As far as the drifter, you're probably talking about PA (same name as a co-founder of Microsoft), but again, there's a strong likelihood that Shannan died of accidental causes so even if PA was in fact at the "party", which I doubt given the lack of evidence or information provided by police, it's still a dead end so why bother starting there? Why not start to focus on the GB4 and Manorville where we have solid evidence? Why not focus on Carman Monaco Jr.?

 

[Dwntwnslim]

My point is that, to my knowledge - and I, like everyone else on here, have been following this case closely - CPH did not deny writing the letters. The blatant absence of any denial whatsoever, IMO, says that he wrote them. I can't imagine that he or anyone in such a situation would ignore such an outright mistruth if he did not in fact write them. To my mind, if he's not disputing them, why would the rest of us?

I do, however understand (I think) the essence of what you are saying. To be suspected and in fact even accused of something one did not do, to be the subject of endless speculation if one was in fact innocent - that would be terrible. We are all innocent until proven guilty, of course. However, unfortunately that's the nature of this sort of forum. For better or for worse, he is a part of this case, and he's going to be analyzed and discussed. I do feel we should be careful not to libel him or anyone else, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with discussing his involvement. I don't know what happened that night. While I do personally lean towards certain theories, my mind is still open to all possibilities. And one of those is that he might indeed have some more sinister involvement, so I'm still interested in discussing that possibility.

I also see your point about how endless discussion of what happened in Oak Beach could be taking away from more valuable sleuthing about the other victims. But really, that's only if there is in fact no connection. The thing is - nothing has yet been resolved. It just hasn't. The premature pronouncements from Dormer and the subsequent silence do not amount to anything, let's be honest. So until we know something about how Shannan died for sure that would lead us away from Oak Beach in the quest for the serial killer, the most logical place to start is still there, IMO. It's still the best "clue" or break we have been given. I'm new to all this sleuthing, but it does seem to me there's a logical process of elimination to follow in dealing with potential suspects in any case, and until Oak Beach can be eliminated completely as a potential tie to the serial killings, it's not only still completely valid to discuss it, but it's necessary. It might in fact be more of a time waster to move on from it before it's been definitively eliminated - if there's any possibility there could be a connection, to move on prematurely would be sidetracking the investigation.

We may just have to agree to disagree on all this!

"CPH did not deny writing the letters. The blatant absence of any denial whatsoever, IMO, says that he wrote them."

How could you possibly know with Any Degree of Certainty, that the doctor hasn't denied writing the letters? Maybe he has told LE that he didn't? Just because it isn't on TV doesn't mean it didn't happen.

An Absence of Information Isn't The Same As Information, IMHO!

To clarify what your saying, we have zero information regarding the doctor's stance on the authenticity of the letters. Is this correct?


"To my mind, if he's not disputing them, why would the rest of us?"

IMHO, that is a fantastic leap of logic. Also, IMHO, it would be irresponsible of Me not to do so. We are talking about people's Lives here! When LE arrests the perp responsible for these murders, I for one want to make darn sure they arrest the Right Perp even If it is the doctor.


"I do feel we should be careful not to libel him or anyone else, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with discussing his involvement."

Agreed. However, IMHO, Some discussions have crossed that line especially when Unsubstantiated Rumors, from people who may or may not exist, from another website of questionable integrity, have been used to support Allegations. Also, I Never said that there was anything wrong with discussing the doctor's Possible involvement.


"I also see your point about how endless discussion of what happened in Oak Beach could be taking away from more valuable sleuthing about the other victims."

I Never Said That. Ever.


"So until we know something about how Shannan died for sure that would lead us away from Oak Beach in the quest for the serial killer, the most logical place to start is still there, IMO."

Agreed. I'm still going to consider and investigate other possibilities, however.


"It might in fact be more of a time waster to move on from it before it's been definitively eliminated - if there's any possibility there could be a connection, to move on prematurely would be sidetracking the investigation."

I sometimes wonder if focusing on the doctor because we've been handed unsubstantiated rumors from questionable sources to work with (on purpose?), is a time waster in and of itself.

 

[inspctrgadget]

Thanks for the well thought-out response, inspector.

My next question is... do we have any credible reports confirming that Maureen Brainard Barnes' phone last pinged near the Gilgo/OB area and that investigators did a helicopter search of that general area after Maureen went missing in 2008? I'm trying to disconnect the murders from the community if possible but... it ain't easy.

ETA: http://nymag.com/news/features/long-island-serial-killer-families-2011-6/index2.html



This is pretty much all I've found so far... I guess "a few miles" is open to interpretation.

Hmm, interesting. I guess I didn't realize that. So the killer has definitely contact Melissa Barthelemy's sister from Massapequa. And, as you point out, the SK has checked Marueen's voicemail from a cell tower near Gilgo. I'd say that this report is pretty confirmed since Cann is corroborating the 2008 search. And its not to be confused with Melissa's phone calling from Massapequa later in 2009. Here's what I found too:

From here.

"Cann’s sister, Maureen Brainard-Barnes, had gone missing from her Manhattan hotel room nearly three years earlier, in July 2007. Police had subsequently linked her phone activity to a cell phone tower on Long Island. In 2008, police helicopters and cadaver dogs had scoured the same marshy, desolate area, but found no signs of Brainard-Barnes, a sweet-faced brunette with a passion for poetry."

So, my guess is that this was indeed a cell tower that was close to Gilgo, where her body was found. Probably this one:
http://www.cell-phone-in.com/tower/Overlook-Beach-Ocean-Parkway-.htm

Or this one: East End Wireless in Gilgo, as seen on this map:
http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=new york&state_abr=ny

In 2008, the SK probably drove down to his dump site to relive the memories and get rid of evidence. Before getting rid of the phone, he probably dialed her voicemail. He probably chucked the cell phone and other "mementos" into the bushes or the ocean in order to get rid of any evidence.

Carman Monaco Jr. had a penchant for voice mail:
"He called himself "Sal from Woodbury" and left about 300 lewd messages and threats on News 12 voice mail tapes during working hours in the past nine months. He also had a "handful" of live conservations with the victims, police said."

Also, Ela Waterman received voicemail messages from someone who was threatening/coercive.
http://blog.scarboroughleader.com/2011/04/21/families-bonding--after-tragedy.aspx

"An anonymous caller has left her several voicemails at work stating that he is a police officer from Long Island who wants to speak with her.

Ela said the caller had an unusual tone and that police in Long Island have her proper contact information and would not call her at work.

She said she was not able to identify the number because the person is calling from a private line. She said she contacted Long Island police about the issue, who told her to note the time and let her know when the caller dialed again.

“It’s someone trying to scare me to keep my mouth shut, but I’m Megan’s voice, and I’m going to keep it out there whether they like it or not,” Ela said."

 

[svpernin]

Hmm, interesting. I guess I didn't realize that. So the killer has definitely contact Melissa Barthelemy's sister from Massapequa. And, as you point out, the SK has checked Marueen's voicemail from a cell tower near Gilgo. I'd say that this report is pretty confirmed since Cann is corroborating the 2008 search. And its not to be confused with Melissa's phone calling from Massapequa later in 2009. Here's what I found too:

From here.

"Cann’s sister, Maureen Brainard-Barnes, had gone missing from her Manhattan hotel room nearly three years earlier, in July 2007. Police had subsequently linked her phone activity to a cell phone tower on Long Island. In 2008, police helicopters and cadaver dogs had scoured the same marshy, desolate area, but found no signs of Brainard-Barnes, a sweet-faced brunette with a passion for poetry."

So, my guess is that this was indeed a cell tower that was close to Gilgo, where her body was found. Probably this one:
http://www.cell-phone-in.com/tower/Overlook-Beach-Ocean-Parkway-.htm

Or this one: East End Wireless in Gilgo, as seen on this map:
http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=new york&state_abr=ny

In 2008, the SK probably drove down to his dump site to relive the memories and get rid of evidence. Before getting rid of the phone, he probably dialed her voicemail. He probably chucked the cell phone and other "mementos" into the bushes or the ocean in order to get rid of any evidence.

Carman Monaco Jr. had a penchant for voice mail:
"He called himself "Sal from Woodbury" and left about 300 lewd messages and threats on News 12 voice mail tapes during working hours in the past nine months. He also had a "handful" of live conservations with the victims, police said."

Also, Ela Waterman received voicemail messages from someone who was threatening/coercive.
http://blog.scarboroughleader.com/2011/04/21/families-bonding--after-tragedy.aspx

"An anonymous caller has left her several voicemails at work stating that he is a police officer from Long Island who wants to speak with her.

Ela said the caller had an unusual tone and that police in Long Island have her proper contact information and would not call her at work.

She said she was not able to identify the number because the person is calling from a private line. She said she contacted Long Island police about the issue, who told her to note the time and let her know when the caller dialed again.

“It’s someone trying to scare me to keep my mouth shut, but I’m Megan’s voice, and I’m going to keep it out there whether they like it or not,” Ela said."

Here's my take on the calls to Megan's mother... I'm not entirely convinced they came from the killer or anyone involved in the case. The calls were made at the height of the publicity about the LISK, and at the time, Megan's mom had her place of work posted on FB for everyone to see. If you go to the lisk website, you can see just how many unbalanced individuals there are that follow this case, I always theorized that it was someone like that trying to get insider information. JMO, of course, but the content of the calls didn't seem consistent with the calls made to Melissa's sister. The "threatening/coersive" statement (as well as other statements made in that article) are NOT consistent with what Ela herself said about the calls on FB. I remember her posting that her coworker answered the phone, the person called her by her exact FB name "Lorraine Waterman Ela" and sounded nervous. I have no proof of this, I'm just remembering what I read almost a year ago, take it for what it's worth.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Some websites that we use as sources for sleuthing will go black tomorrow to protest the "Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA)". Here are some links for information about SOPA and the blackout tomorrow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wi...ddit-dark-wednesday-protest/story?id=15373251

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2398969,00.asp


There is a Rumor that google will go black tomorrow too but, I haven't been able to substantiate that yet.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

@ Oriah-

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and answering questions!

 

[snapdragon2]

"CPH did not deny writing the letters. The blatant absence of any denial whatsoever, IMO, says that he wrote them."

How could you possibly know with Any Degree of Certainty, that the doctor hasn't denied writing the letters? Maybe he has told LE that he didn't? Just because it isn't on TV doesn't mean it didn't happen.

An Absence of Information Isn't The Same As Information, IMHO!

To clarify what your saying, we have zero information regarding the doctor's stance on the authenticity of the letters. Is this correct?


"To my mind, if he's not disputing them, why would the rest of us?"

IMHO, that is a fantastic leap of logic. Also, IMHO, it would be irresponsible of Me not to do so. We are talking about people's Lives here! When LE arrests the perp responsible for these murders, I for one want to make darn sure they arrest the Right Perp even If it is the doctor.


"I do feel we should be careful not to libel him or anyone else, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with discussing his involvement."

Agreed. However, IMHO, Some discussions have crossed that line especially when Unsubstantiated Rumors, from people who may or may not exist, from another website of questionable integrity, have been used to support Allegations. Also, I Never said that there was anything wrong with discussing the doctor's Possible involvement.


"I also see your point about how endless discussion of what happened in Oak Beach could be taking away from more valuable sleuthing about the other victims."

I Never Said That. Ever.


"So until we know something about how Shannan died for sure that would lead us away from Oak Beach in the quest for the serial killer, the most logical place to start is still there, IMO."

Agreed. I'm still going to consider and investigate other possibilities, however.


"It might in fact be more of a time waster to move on from it before it's been definitively eliminated - if there's any possibility there could be a connection, to move on prematurely would be sidetracking the investigation."

I sometimes wonder if focusing on the doctor because we've been handed unsubstantiated rumors from questionable sources to work with (on purpose?), is a time waster in and of itself.

How could you possibly know with Any Degree of Certainty, that the doctor hasn't denied writing the letters? Maybe he has told LE that he didn't? Just because it isn't on TV doesn't mean it didn't happen.

This is the last time I'm going to express my opinion on this, because I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall. I truly mean no offence by this, but what you are proposing makes no sense to me. There are times when it is logical to make an assumption, and in the absence of anything - anything at all - to refute that assumption or suggest it isn't correct, it is perfectly reasonable to continue to do so.

After all, using your logic, you could really question everything and anything, till the cows come home. Am "I" really writing this post? Maybe an intruder broke in and is using my computer. Maybe someone else is using my identity. Maybe the "real" me - the person who signed up here and started posting - is in Siberia and unaware that someone else is posing as "me" and that's why I haven't informed everyone that the posts are being made by someone else. Maybe I should assure everyone every time I write that it really is me. But then again, I could be lying. Do you see my point?! How do we know that David Furnish made nasty comments about Madonna on his Facebook page(it's on the news as I write this!)? Maybe someone else did it. Did anyone confirm it? He didn't come forward and deny it, but by your logic that doesn't mean anything.

I feel like it's a waste of time to argue about whether or not the doctor wrote those letters to the show. I think we can safely assume at this point that he did. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I Never Said That. Ever.

Sorry. There's another poster who seems to be on the same page as you and maybe I was lumping you together. Or inaccurately paraphrasing. All I mean is that someone has made the point that it might be more valuable to start concentrating on the serial killings without focusing on Oak Beach. I understand and think it's a very valid comment but agree only to a point, because I still think Oak Beach cannot yet be eliminated as having a possible connection.

I sometimes wonder if focusing on the doctor because we've been handed unsubstantiated rumors from questionable sources to work with (on purpose?), is a time waster in and of itself.

To focus on the doctor because one has been handed unsubstantiated rumors from questionable sources to work with, if that is true, would indeed probably be a time waster. To focus on the doctor because serious questions still remain and need to be answered isn't, IMO.

If you don't agree that the doctor is involved, you don't have to engage in those discussions. If you want to focus on other things and possibilities you should. I'm all ears (or eyes, as it were!)