NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

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JLL829 said:
I think the one thing everyone is forgetting is he was breaking the law!! I think the message should be get an education, get a job, so you dont have to resort to breaking the law to provide for you and your family and these things wont happen. In every one of these cases the people killed were CRIMINALS, I dont see how people can protest the police were just doing there jobs getting one less off the street.
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I'm not forgetting. But we are not Saudi Arabia. We are supposed to be a civilized nation where penalties fit the crime. This man was killed when he didn't comply with being arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. He wasn't being aggressive. He wasn't hitting or reaching for anyone's gun. The officer used a restraint that he wasn't supposed to use because it is dangerous. It happens way too often. And our society cannot condone it.
 
I haven't read this entire thread, but has it been mentioned a person can not speak if they can not breath? Breath is necessary to be able to speak. IOW, if someone can speak - they can breathe. If the GJ works on reasonable doubt - his ability to speak leaves one to wonder - did he die as a result of an asthma attack, or the choke hold?

When I was a kid I choked on a jawbreaker. I could not speak. I had to use my arms to alert my mom I could not breath. Having experienced choking first hand, I don't know how anyone choking can speak.
 
Police departments around the country consider frequent charges of resisting arrest a potential red flag, as some officers might add the charge to justify use of force. WNYC analyzed NYPD records and found 51,503 cases with resisting arrest charges since 2009. Just five percent of arresting officers during that period account for 40% of resisting arrest cases -- and 15% account for more than half of such cases.

http://www.wnyc.org/story/can-the-nypd-spot-the-abusive-cop/
 
Cubby said:
I haven't read this entire thread, but has it been mentioned a person can not speak if they can not breath? Breath is necessary to be able to speak. IOW, if someone can speak - they can breathe. If the GJ works on reasonable doubt - his ability to speak leaves one to wonder - did he die as a result of an asthma attack, or the choke hold?

When I was a kid I choked on a jawbreaker. I could not speak. I had to use my arms to alert my mom I could not breath. Having experienced choking first hand, I don't know how anyone choking can speak.
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When people's breathing is distressed, they will often say "I can't breathe". What they really might mean is "I'm having trouble getting air", or "my chest feels tight", or "I can't get enough oxygen because you are squeezing my throat and there are a bunch of people piling on me".

No, people in breathing distress usually can't manage to get all that out. So while yes, technically, Mr Garner may have still been able to get some air, I don't believe we can draw any conclusion from his statement that he couldn't breathe
Edit to clarify - any further assumption or conclusion besides the obvious: that he was having trouble breathing.


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DeDee said:
Selling Loose Cigarettes is Highly Profitable. It is comparable to pirating music or bootlegging booze.

The cigarette excise tax in New York is $4.35 per pack of 20 cigarettes. That amounts to a $43.50 tax for a single carton of cigs that contains ten packs.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/state-cigarette-tax-rates-2014

EG was illegally selling loose cigs. It is my understanding that EG's arrest record has been sealed. That should tell us something. The shopkeepers were constantly running him off because they pay their taxes while he did not; hence, EG could sell cigs cheaper than the stores. He probably threatened the shopkeepers that this was "his corner". IMO, EG continued with his illegal practice because it was highly profitable.

I've viewed the video copious times, esp. when it was first posted. EG did not have 5 cops on him. There were two on him; three near him. LEO are trained to take down an individual from behind if the perp is of a larger size. This was done by the PO using a head lock, JMO, and the assistance of another officer.

EG spoke: "I can't breathe" eight times. 8 times. A person who cannot breathe cannot speak 3 words eight different times. Even when laying on the ground, EG moved his arms to prevent being handcuffed. Therefore, while down on the sidewalk, EG continued to resist arrest.

To be clear, I am not supporting the PO's actions one way or the other. Medics were called to care and treat the perp. LEO do not carry oxygen with them.

Also, I am wary of folks claiming to be one of the GJ, esp. one stating the jurors were using their cellphones for I feel a judge would never allow such behavior.

I am eagerly anticipating the release of any and all info the DA chooses to allow us.

OMHO
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http://m.ibtimes.com/eric-garner-de...wing-emts-not-helping-man-raises-more-1635388

Respectfully, when LE had him face down on the pavement, and were forcing him down, holding his head down, and he stated he couldn't breathe, he couldn't breathe. Yes, he was able to talk and he was not gasping at that time. However shortly thereafter, he went unresponsive due to lack of oxygen. And died.

I don't know whether you or anyone else here has ever not been able to breathe. I have. I could still talk with over 80% of my lungs not working when I had H1N1 pneumonia. It is the most awful feeling and you do feel like you are going to die.
 
JLL829 said:
I think the one thing everyone is forgetting is he was breaking the law!! I think the message should be get an education, get a job, so you dont have to resort to breaking the law to provide for you and your family and these things wont happen. In every one of these cases the people killed were CRIMINALS, I dont see how people can protest the police were just doing there jobs getting one less off the street.
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Here is where I think the humanity is lost. Yes, he was breaking the law. Selling loose cigarettes, as far as I can tell, is not a Class 1 Felony warranting the death penalty.
 
William N said:
Why didn't the Christian-Newsom case get a thousandth of the national coverage this one did? IMO a real thrill killing.
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I could ask the same question about any number of other cases, with varied victims, varied perps, of every color of the rainbow. There was a particularly heinous one in the Boston area when I was a teen, involving two white boys who killed third brutally, for the admitted thrill of it. So I'm wondering why you picked that one case in particular to highlight, as if it represents some larger issue.

Because I think it's disingenuous to ask why this case is getting a lot of attention. We all know why, and it's kind of defeating the purpose of a discussion thread, IMO, to forbid that reason to be discussed, but oh well. To follow rules I will say what I am sure you already know - this case is garnering loads of national attention not simply because it was videoed, not simply because to so many of us the response of force was patently excessive, but also because it is indicative of a larger, systemic problem that for some reason we are not allowed to discuss here, even though it is one of, if not THE biggest issue at hand in this case.

But again, Id like to know why you chose that particular thrill killing to mention, instead of say, I dunno, Leopold and Loeb?


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gitana1 said:
I'm not forgetting. But we are not Saudi Arabia. We are supposed to be a civilized nation where penalties fit the crime. This man was killed when he didn't comply with being arrested for illegally selling cigarettes. He wasn't being aggressive. He wasn't hitting or reaching for anyone's gun. The officer used a restraint that he wasn't supposed to use because it is dangerous. It happens way too often. And our society cannot condone it.
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The point is if he had a real job and wasn't breaking the law selling "loosies" this would not have happened.
 
Zuri said:
Here is where I think the humanity is lost. Yes, he was breaking the law. Selling loose cigarettes, as far as I can tell, is not a Class 1 Felony warranting the death penalty.
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When you break the law and resist arrest anything can happen, if he would have just turned around and let the cops cuff him this might not have happened. This was his 30th+ arrest he should have know the drill by now.
 
Archangel7 said:
What if he bought them out of State for less than local NY Cigs? OR picked them up at a NY Reservation.....cheaper and no tax stamp? Doesn't matter......he was legally arrested by authorized . If a cop has to throw you on the ground you are likely resisting(Garner was by walking away, flailing his arms and avoiding being cuffed plus telling an officer whom has just arrested you "don't touch me" is resisting) or he feels you present a threat and wishes to insure control of said arrested suspect.

This isn't neurosurgery.....simply comply or ALL INVOLVED SUFFER CONSEQUENCES.
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I just watched the arrest video again. I am wondering if SG was agitated and resisting because at that moment, he was not selling loose cigs. He had just broken up a fight IIRC and he seemed frustrated that he was being accused of something he wasn't doing at that moment. IMO
 
Zuri said:
Here is where I think the humanity is lost. Yes, he was breaking the law. Selling loose cigarettes, as far as I can tell, is not a Class 1 Felony warranting the death penalty.
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Thank you! He was absolutely breaking the law. I had this talk with my 17 yr old last night. Explaining NON violent vs. violent criminals. There are misdemeanors and felonies for a reason. Crime , punishment, probation, fees, prison sentences,etc. are ALL based on the severity of the crime and whether or NOT there was any violence or ' aggravating' circumstances to the crime. This man was not a ' violent' criminal. Of course, he should not have been breaking the law for the umpteenth time. But we there is a real problem with saying ' it's ok he was killed because he broke the law'. How would you feel if you got a traffic ticket, forgot to pay it, got a warrant and got killed by LE? It's a crime to not pay your ticket or to even SPEED in the first place. Loads and loads of ' non violent' people commit this ' crime' every day. Should the penalty for breaking any law be possible death? ( 'you' in general, not you Zuri :) _)
 
JLL829 said:
When you break the law and resist arrest anything can happen, if he would have just turned around and let the cops cuff him this might not have happened. This was his 30th+ arrest he should have know the drill by now.
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I watched the video several times. I noticed that the deceased gentleman said--if I heard correctly--"don't touch me" when the cops tried to grab his hands. He then flung his hands and arms around. Did I see that correctly or was that a spliced video? TIA to anyone who can help.
 
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