GUILTY NY - Twenty dead in Limo Crash, Schoharie County, 6 Oct 2018 *arrest* #2

[Laurence Bothwell]

The Stretch Limo's Fatal Flaw

This article estimates that the stretch limo weighed 10,000 pounds with another 2700 lbs for passengers. And, this limousine, was listed for sale two days before the crash, $9000 OBO!

Thank you. I'll compare with Original Design for 9 passengers and with Small Trucks later.

 

[Laurence Bothwell]

I have resisted urges to examine 5-ton and 18-ton and heavier Trucks, ALL prohibited from NY30&7 to NY30&30A T-Junction progressively from 2013 and Jan 2015 to Dec 2015.

The 2,700 pounds (lbs) for Passengers suggested in The Stretch Limo's Fatal Flaw seems based on a 1960-1962 Survey Average of 150 pounds (lbs).

In my J2 Extrapolation, I have added 0.8lbs for males and 1.5lbs for Females for each of 4-year gaps since the the 3rd Survey (2017-2010). This yields an Average of 190.65lbs and an Estimated 18 Passenger Weight of 3,431.70lbs.

In my J1 Notes on Limo and Passenger Weights, I think that the Maximum (Male) Weight of 233.1lbs should be used for 20 Passengers, totalling 4,462lbs (2.231 tons) towards selecting any Upgraded Braking Systems for a Modified Limo of this 180 inches Stretch. I observed one article in passing that proposed installing 2 extra seats in his Truck Rear, stating his 2 friends intended to use these seats were 230lbs and 300lbs, so my 223.1lbs Maximum for Males (as a Mean Weight) might have jumped up during recent obesity trends.

It seems that the Modified Curb Weight (unladen) and 2.231 tonnage for 20 Passengers has nudged this type of 2001 Ford Excursion plus 180 inches Stretch to a Modified Curb Weight exceeding 5 tons. If NYSDot had reacted to this 'over 5 tons' to treat it as 'EQUIVALENT to a Truck exceeding 5 tons', then this Limousine should have re-routed from NY30&7 along NY7 West to turn left at NY7&30A along NY30A South. I conclude that 'Defective NY30 Warning Signs' [as covered in my Charts A to H] & 'multi-deficient Limo Design / Regulation / Scrutiny', both falling under responsibility of various NYSDot Highway and Vehicle Departments, may be decisive defences in the ongoing Grand Jury Indictment Criminal Cases. The Prestige Limousine Owners might well be in breach of felony charges, but not so much at the level currently pushed for.

In my J3 Notes I have commented briefly on Seat Re-Orientation (to Bench Seats in the 180 inches Section) and Seat Belts (with a link to Wiki on Seat Beats). Some Youtube Videos show examples of Simulated Crash Tests for Ambulance Patients & Paramedics on Bench Seats (with and without Seat Belts), Patients strapped to unsecure Stretchers, Standing Paramedics in Harnesses. An UK 'Fifth Gear' Crash Test (around Dec 2014) shows merely 3 Unbelted Rear Crash Dummies in a Short Limousine on facing seats (2 facing forward, 1 facing rearward with back to bulkhead).

 

[Laurence Bothwell]

Welcome to Websleuths,
um, what's your name again!?
Oh, yeah,
Laurence Bothwell !!

​

oops, did it again !​

Having just now posted my Chart J1 to J3, I am in reasonable expectation of your 4th QUAD Welcome to Websleuths.

 

[alibrarian]

There has been much movement in this case as we reach the one year anniversary of this crash.

Schoharie Limo Crash: NTSB Says Seat Belts Might Have Saved Lives includes NTSB photos of the limo and a drawing showing the seating.

Much is reported by the Albany (NY) Times Union which is behind a paywall for me.

 

[alibrarian]

The USA Today update is free to access.

20 people died in a limo crash. A year later secrets and unanswered questions remain

 

[alibrarian]

Link to long awaited NTSB report:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HSR1902.pdf

National Transportation Safety Board Washington, DC 20594 Safety Recommendation Report Providing Occupant Protection for Limousine Passengers

Findings 1. The crash was not survivable for the limousine driver. 2. Because lap/shoulder belts provide a greater level of occupant protection than lap belts, lap/shoulder belts should be installed as standard equipment for all passenger seating positions in limousines. 3. The non-original equipment manufacturer seats and lap belt systems in the modified portion of the passenger compartment, including their structural anchorage points, were not properly designed for occupant crash protection. 4. If seat belts on limousines are not readily assessible (sic) to the passengers, they are unlikely to be worn. 5. Extending New York’s mandatory seat belt use laws with primary enforcement to all vehicles, including for all limousine passengers in all seating positions, would decrease fatalities.

 

[alibrarian]

Prior to the October crash, repairs were made at a Mavis Discount Tire, which has now been sued by two families.

"The Mavis Discount Tire in Saratoga Springs is increasingly being pulled into the Schoharie limo crash case as the one-year anniversary of the disaster, which killed 20 people, approaches."

Criminal, civil actions drawing Mavis deeper into Schoharie limo crash case

 

[Tripod]

Prior to the October crash, repairs were made at a Mavis Discount Tire, which has now been sued by two families.

"The Mavis Discount Tire in Saratoga Springs is increasingly being pulled into the Schoharie limo crash case as the one-year anniversary of the disaster, which killed 20 people, approaches."

Criminal, civil actions drawing Mavis deeper into Schoharie limo crash case

Thanks for posting these updates. Being local, I've been aware of the of the news, but hadn't yet seen the prelim report. There's been a beautiful permanent memorial built near the accident scene, and a private unvailing will be done for the victims loved ones prior to the public opening. I'll try to remember to post more info.

 

[LadyL]

There has been much movement in this case as we reach the one year anniversary of this crash.

Schoharie Limo Crash: NTSB Says Seat Belts Might Have Saved Lives includes NTSB photos of the limo and a drawing showing the seating.

Much is reported by the Albany (NY) Times Union which is behind a paywall for me.

wow, that photo ...

 

[borndem]

Welcome to Websleuths,
Laurence Bothwell !!
​

 

[alibrarian]

wow, that photo ...

The photos of the front and other side of the crash are, I don't have the right words. Up until the report, I've only seen the passenger side rear side/end, which did not look damaged and appeared to lead to theories that other forces were at play with so many horrible deaths.

The images and the description of the survival zones were sobering to read. I am not far away, in Buffalo, NY, and I have not seen any updates in my local news. I keep the families in my thoughts.

 

[LadyL]

The photos of the front and other side of the crash are, I don't have the right words. Up until the report, I've only seen the passenger side rear side/end, which did not look damaged and appeared to lead to theories that other forces were at play with so many horrible deaths.

The images and the description of the survival zones were sobering to read. I am not far away, in Buffalo, NY, and I have not seen any updates in my local news. I keep the families in my thoughts.

I only saw one photo of the front of the limo at the link ... is there other pics?

 

[alibrarian]

I only saw one photo of the front of the limo at the link ... is there other pics?

Hello,

In the report https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HSR1902.pdf on page three there is a second picture of the front passenger side as well as post-crash 3D renderings on page seven.

 

[LadyL]

Hello,

In the report https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HSR1902.pdf on page three there is a second picture of the front passenger side as well as post-crash 3D renderings on page seven.

thank you
very sobering

 

[TristanP]

wow, that photo ...

Hard to believe there was any “survivable” space in there with that impact! But at least that info can be used to bring about safety changes and hopefully more enforcement.

 

[Tripod]

Hard to believe there was any “survivable” space in there with that impact! But at least that info can be used to bring about safety changes and hopefully more enforcement.

And the limo was exceeding the 50mph speed limit by a fair amount, apparently! I can't imagine the crash impact forces.

 

[alibrarian]

October 6, 2019, one year after the limo crash.

Much is behind a paywall for me (Times-Union, Daily Gazette, even Rochester T-U has a story but for subscribers only).

Some I could find:

Apple Barrel Memorial Unites Schoharie Community

The 20 Lives Lost: A Newlywed, A Dodge Ball King, A Fitness Buff

Reflections memorial unveiled in ceremony for Schoharie crash families, first responders

 

[cass523]

"U.S. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, and U.S. Representatives Paul Tonko , D-Amsterdam, and Antonio Delgado, D-Ulster, on Thursday in Riverlink Park, introduced the Safety, Accountability and Federal Enforcement of Limos Act of 2019, the Take Unsafe Limos Off the Road Act and the End the Limo Loophole Act to help prevent future tragedies involving stretch limousines.

Schumer acknowledged all the victims who tragically died in the crash and their survived loved ones. Schumer briefly discussed the SAFE Limos Act"

Officials call for limo safety | News, Sports, Jobs - Leader Herald

Remembering the 20 Lives Lost in the NY Limo Crash — the Deadliest U.S. Road Accident in 14 Years

 

[Isabelle]

Was any autopsy information released that details the injuries that led to the deaths? Thanks.

 

[Tripod]

Was any autopsy information released that details the injuries that led to the deaths? Thanks.

Schoharie crash autopsy results released
I don't believe we'll ever see any further detail than this, unless the final NTSB report will have more. I haven't seen any date for that report to be completed.