NY - Twenty Fatality Traffic Crash, Schoharie County, 6 Oct 2018

[Mica]

https://nypost.com/2018/10/12/hundreds-flock-to-wake-for-sisters-killed-in-upstate-limo-tragedy/

 

[MimosaMornings]

An alternative view is fine if it’s factual. When I worked for an attorney I was tasked with verifying information - he didn’t want to have egg on his face when he made public statements regarding his clients.

JMO - With the father out of the country and the mother deceased, it appears the sons were on their own and handling the daily dealings with family business ventures.

 

[Jilllian]

Heartbreaking

Heartbreaking scenes at funeral for four sisters killed in limo crash | Daily Mail Online

 

[Jilllian]

Sad that the husbands of three of the sisters will be buried separately, but I imagine that was a hard decision to make for the families

 

[Isabelle]

That's a real good word!

I know the attorney is a defense attorney, but they aren't supposed to tell STUPID lies! What was gained for his client by that?

The attorney is going to taint the jury if he continues to make false statements about his client. Jury won’t believe anything he has to say in court!!!

 

[Elley Mae]

Thats because going down hill with a heavy load will definitely burn out your breaks if you are going too fast and simply try to ride out the break while going down hill. Jmo.

And this is why if you have a heavy load. You are always supposed to go down a hill in low gear so you are not forced to ride the break down hill.

And all Class B and Class A drivers should know this before getting their Commercial license. Jmo.

Absolutely true about going to low gear, even in my cooper I go down in gears to keep off the brakes.

 

[alibrarian]

Longer article from the NYT with a few bits of newer info.

"At 1:40 p.m., 15 minutes before the crash, Allison King texted her fiancé.
“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said."

Death at the Crossroads: A Ragged Limo, an Anxious Driver and 17 Friends


"Why the limousine ended up at that spot — speeding down a mile-long hill, across a busy highway, clipping a parked car and hitting two pedestrians before careening into an overgrown creek bed — is one of many mysteries. The brewery is in the other direction, to the west."

 

[Mica]

Deleted

 

[Mica]

Longer article from the NYT with a few bits of newer info.

"At 1:40 p.m., 15 minutes before the crash, Allison King texted her fiancé.
“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said."

Death at the Crossroads: A Ragged Limo, an Anxious Driver and 17 Friends


"Why the limousine ended up at that spot — speeding down a mile-long hill, across a busy highway, clipping a parked car and hitting two pedestrians before careening into an overgrown creek bed — is one of many mysteries. The brewery is in the other direction, to the west."

Makes it appear they were going the wrong way!

Some more additional info in the article I hadn’t seen before...

Snip

At 1:40 p.m., 15 minutes before the crash, Allison King texted her fiancé.

“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said.

 

[Cryptic]

That is exactly what I wondered, why the driver was not in a lower gear. However, there could have easily been a trifecta of circumstances; Brake failure, transmission malfunction, and driver error, could all factor in.

If there was a brake / transmission failure, it may be difficult to determine the cause. For example, was the cause poor maintenance that was below safety standards, or was the cause due to over load?

The Ford Excursion is designed for 8-9 passengers. The limousine had 18, plus the additional weight from the super stretch modification. I wonder if this excess weight exceeded the design limitations and could cause the brakes to burn out fast under some conditions?

As for why the driver was not in low gear, that is especially puzzling as he had experience as an 18 wheeler driver. Thus, he was very familiar with using different gearing ratios when needed, the possibility of burned out brakes and what to do.

 

[mickey2942]

If there was a brake / transmission failure, it may be difficult to determine the cause. For example, was the cause poor maintenance that was below safety standards, or was the cause due to over load?

The Ford Excursion is designed for 8-9 passengers. The limousine had 18, plus the additional weight from the super stretch modification. I wonder if this excess weight exceeded the design limitations and could cause the brakes to burn out fast under some conditions?

As for why the driver was not in low gear, that is especially puzzling as he had experience as an 18 wheeler driver. Thus, he was very familiar with using different gearing ratios when needed, the possibility of burned out brakes and what to do.

Toxicology results of the driver may be a factor as well. Ironic, that this party hired a vehicle to be safer. Sad.

 

[Cryptic]

Toxicology results of the driver may be a factor as well. Ironic, that this party hired a vehicle to be safer. Sad.

Good point.

That could explain the burning brakes, but an experienced 18 wheeler driver not going into low gear etc. In the end, the reasons for the tragedy may be a "perfect storm" of factors: poor maintenance, inadequate signage at a dangerous intersection, permitted over load of design, driver error, and possibly a uhmm...."less than fully focused" driver.

 

[mickey2942]

Good point.

That could explain the burning brakes, but an experienced 18 wheeler driver not going into low gear etc. In the end, the reasons for the tragedy may be a "perfect storm" of factors: poor maintenance, inadequate signage at a dangerous intersection, permitted over load of design, driver error, and possibly a uhmm...."less than fully focused" driver.

Definitely, weight is a factor in driving on steep grades. We don't know the weight capacity of the vehicle, but if it is a rebuilt vehicle, often the engine and other parts are not upgraded. I am actually surprised that we don't hear about more of these types of accidents. Maybe this one was more publicized due to the large number of people, and significant that four sisters were killed at once.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Snip
“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said.

Because they knew there was an issue, there might be a likelihood that somebody was filming or recording at the time of the accident?

 

[Isabelle]

If there was a brake / transmission failure, it may be difficult to determine the cause. For example, was the cause poor maintenance that was below safety standards, or was the cause due to over load?

The Ford Excursion is designed for 8-9 passengers. The limousine had 18, plus the additional weight from the super stretch modification. I wonder if this excess weight exceeded the design limitations and could cause the brakes to burn out fast under some conditions?

As for why the driver was not in low gear, that is especially puzzling as he had experience as an 18 wheeler driver. Thus, he was very familiar with using different gearing ratios when needed, the possibility of burned out brakes and what to do.

Considering the vehicle was out of compliance, it doesn’t seem it would be too hard to put 2 and 2 together as to why there was a braking problem. A rocket scientist is not needed here. I’m hoping this isn’t one of the problems the investigators are trying to understand. Wouldn’t this be Occam’s Razor, or whatever it is called.

 

[mickey2942]

Because they knew there was an issue, there might be a likelihood that somebody was filming or recording at the time of the accident?

Interesting comment, potentially the cellphones of the victims could have a lot of information. And I think that the smartwatches, are going to be used more often in sleuthing information from victims as well. There is potentially a lot of information available.

 

[Elley Mae]

The horn? Was it broke as well. Could have at least blown the horn to give the two in the parking lot a chance.

 

[Cryptic]

Considering the vehicle was out of compliance, it doesn’t seem it would be too hard to put 2 and 2 together as to why there was a braking problem. A rocket scientist is not needed here.

Though a rocket scientist is not needed, it is far more complicated than your post states.

The fact that the vehicle was out of compliance does not mean that the brakes failed at all. Rather, a vehicle can be out of compliance and still have perfectly functioning brakes. Nor would the fact that the brakes failed mean that the brakes must have failed due to poor maintenance (compliance issue). Rather, the brakes could have failed due to mechanical overload and not illegally poor maintenance.

Even more complicated is the possibility of several contributing factors in a possible brake failure. For example, poorly maintained (but perhaps not necessarily illegally maintained) brakes fail after an over load is placed on them from the added weight of the super stretch. Had the brakes been rigorously maintained with specialized pads, and maybe open rims for added cooling etc, they could have held up. But...

Definitely, weight is a factor in driving on steep grades. We don't know the weight capacity of the vehicle, but if it is a rebuilt vehicle, often the engine and other parts are not upgraded. I am actually surprised that we don't hear about more of these types of accidents. Maybe this one was more publicized due to the large number of people, and significant that four sisters were killed at once.

Very well said.

These super stretch modifications that probably don't take into account the added loads on engines, transmissions, brakes, chassis, and ease of exit seem have the potential to make serious situations into disasters. I think you are right in that there have been other less publicized accidents.

 

[CARIIS]

does anyone know roughly how far away there destination was from where they all generally lived.

It is so bizarre to me that a limo company would allow a limo to sound like a monster truck - how on earth that could not result in people just flat out not using them is befuddling,

Just in passing it around the area - (there is nothing funny here) but visualize sitting at lite and a limo pulls up aside that sounds like a monster truck is just absurd.

Everyone all dressed up -- perfumes and colognes - climbing in a a limo that smells like whatever - it is all horrid.

I suppose if a group on its way to a rodeo or something rented it it might make some sense!

jeezzzzz

 

[Jilllian]

does anyone know roughly how far away there destination was from where they all generally lived.

It is so bizarre to me that a limo company would allow a limo to sound like a monster truck - how on earth that could not result in people just flat out not using them is befuddling,

Just in passing it around the area - (there is nothing funny here) but visualize sitting at lite and a limo pulls up aside that sounds like a monster truck is just absurd.

Everyone all dressed up -- perfumes and colognes - climbing in a a limo that smells like whatever - it is all horrid.

I suppose if a group on its way to a rodeo or something rented it it might make some sense!

jeezzzzz

My best friend lives in Amsterdam (where most of the victims lived). I live in Cooperstown (their destination). Takes about an hour, whether you take the thruway (I90) part of the way, I88, or other various back roads. Since they were in Schoharie, I wonder if they were going to stop at that store, or if they took that way to see the changing colors of the leaves. The Schoharie valley is of particular interest to leaf-peepers since the view is amazing on all of those winding roads. From Amsterdam, you wouldn't go to Schoharie to get here, unless you had reason to.