NY - Twenty Fatality Traffic Crash, Schoharie County, 6 Oct 2018

[Mica]

does anyone know roughly how far away there destination was from where they all generally lived.

It is so bizarre to me that a limo company would allow a limo to sound like a monster truck - how on earth that could not result in people just flat out not using them is befuddling,

Just in passing it around the area - (there is nothing funny here) but visualize sitting at lite and a limo pulls up aside that sounds like a monster truck is just absurd.

Everyone all dressed up -- perfumes and colognes - climbing in a a limo that smells like whatever - it is all horrid.

I suppose if a group on its way to a rodeo or something rented it it might make some sense!

jeezzzzz

The Steenburg’s lived in Amsterdam, NY. Cooperstown is about an hour away as per Googlemaps.

 

[CARIIS]

It does also make me ponder carbon monoxide issues? Did texts stop at some point

Carbon monoxide in the area where the driver was ?

That slows down reaction times - just pondering

But then the rough idea we have of trajectory of vehicle seems to indicate a driver input before the crash sequence started. IMO that too, is just odd. The side seen while being towed out fine. Like not even muddy?

So it would seem we are (as more info comes out) actually talking about a dead instant stop - which would explain lethality.

I have never heard of a NTSB delay - ever - it is gnawing at me

On another level carbon monoxide might almost make it better (poor word) if everyone was unconc before impact sequence that would at least be merciful to some degree.

Cause i def think occupants knew (if concs) that things were going outta control

have any pics of the front of the limo ever been seen?

NTSB talked about immense compression of front seat survivability space as a result of front impact .

 

[CARIIS]

My best friend lives in Amsterdam (where most of the victims lived). I live in Cooperstown (their destination). Takes about an hour, whether you take the thruway (I90) part of the way, I88, or other various back roads. Since they were in Schoharie, I wonder if they were going to stop at that store, or if they took that way to see the changing colors of the leaves. The Schoharie valley is of particular interest to leaf-peepers since the view is amazing on all of those winding roads. From Amsterdam, you wouldn't go to Schoharie to get here, unless you had reason to.

Oh brother now we might have a lost limo driver ? How "off" is being there in Schoharie?

 

[CARIIS]

Longer article from the NYT with a few bits of newer info.

"At 1:40 p.m., 15 minutes before the crash, Allison King texted her fiancé.
“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said."

Death at the Crossroads: A Ragged Limo, an Anxious Driver and 17 Friends


"Why the limousine ended up at that spot — speeding down a mile-long hill, across a busy highway, clipping a parked car and hitting two pedestrians before careening into an overgrown creek bed — is one of many mysteries. The brewery is in the other direction, to the west."

IMO

A beautifully written, descriptive piece of writing

“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said."

we have our answer

scary scary

 

[CARIIS]

If there was a brake / transmission failure, it may be difficult to determine the cause. For example, was the cause poor maintenance that was below safety standards, or was the cause due to over load?

The Ford Excursion is designed for 8-9 passengers. The limousine had 18, plus the additional weight from the super stretch modification. I wonder if this excess weight exceeded the design limitations and could cause the brakes to burn out fast under some conditions?

As for why the driver was not in low gear, that is especially puzzling as he had experience as an 18 wheeler driver. Thus, he was very familiar with using different gearing ratios when needed, the possibility of burned out brakes and what to do.

just learning that for 15 minutes they were coasting is utterly scary
for some reason it also fits the attempted left swerve and loss of control into the SUV

makes me angry

after a couple of minutes it seems one would have to come to a really scary conclusion but also realize that you have to do something like get everyone as ready as possible and pull off on the side of the road and start to parallel crash into shrubbery trying to slow it down to stop without killing people

what in earth is the thinking to just keep going? Then you come on a steep hill - it can only get worse

this is like being on a broken roller coaster for 15 minutes

knowing they all knew is really awful

 

[Cryptic]

after a couple of minutes it seems one would have to come to a really scary conclusion but also realize that you have to do something like get everyone as ready as possible and pull off on the side of the road and start to parallel crash into shrubbery trying to slow it down to stop without killing people

I agree.

Then factor in that the driver was an experienced 18 wheeler trucker and not say, a 35 year old housewife whose driving experience consists of light sedans of late model and whose brake failure training was limited to a paragraph or two in a drivers ed manual that she last saw when she got her license at age 17. The toxicology report for the driver could be important.

 

[CARIIS]

Interesting comment, potentially the cellphones of the victims could have a lot of information. And I think that the smartwatches, are going to be used more often in sleuthing information from victims as well. There is potentially a lot of information available.

They were in the age group to film everything that happens in their lives -- so this might account for the NTSB delay - forensic cell phone stuff.

It would then make sense that there would much argument about if that body of evidence is present ( abundance of cell phone stuff the last 15 minutes)
exactly what ends up in public domain?

We might actually be talking about hours and hours of video. 17 people recording - there would probably be recording going on all over the place before the brake issue became clearly evident.

I would think however, that 17 young people in a scary Limo "coasting" in hilly area would result in a heck of a lot of cell phone activity.

This really might be delay issues imo

 

[CARIIS]

I agree.

Then factor in that the driver was an experienced 18 wheeler trucker and not say, a 35 year old housewife whose driving experience consists of light sedans of late model and whose brake failure training was limited to a paragraph or two in a drivers ed manual that she last saw when she got her license at age 17. The toxicology report for the driver could be important.

the coasting text is just horrifying

 

[Cryptic]

the coasting text is just horrifying

The text should have read: We are coasting and the driver has down shifted to the lowest gear. He is looking for a hill to go up or an embankment to side swipe..... .

 

[CARIIS]

yes

embankment to side swipe.

that was what I was trying to say but did so poorly

DO something

 

[mickey2942]

That is why where I live, it is common to see a dirt road next to the Highway, when there is a steep grade, the side road is called, "Runaway Truck Lane", that is a long, sloping upgrade, for trucks who are having problems with brakes. That would be a wild ride though.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

the coasting text is just horrifying

Each time I check this thread, it just gets more horrific That the passengers (and driver) may have known that they were going to crash is beyond terrifying!

 

[Satchie]

Thats because going down hill with a heavy load will definitely burn out your breaks if you are going too fast and simply try to ride out the break while going down hill. Jmo.

And this is why if you have a heavy load. You are always supposed to go down a hill in low gear so you are not forced to ride the break down hill.

And all Class B and Class A drivers should know this before getting their Commercial license. Jmo.

Would a converted limo like that have manual transmission? I assumed it would be automatic.

Though a rocket scientist is not needed, it is far more complicated than your post states.

The fact that the vehicle was out of compliance does not mean that the brakes failed at all. Rather, a vehicle can be out of compliance and still have perfectly functioning brakes. Nor would the fact that the brakes failed mean that the brakes must have failed due to poor maintenance (compliance issue). Rather, the brakes could have failed due to mechanical overload and not illegally poor maintenance.

Even more complicated is the possibility of several contributing factors in a possible brake failure. For example, poorly maintained (but perhaps not necessarily illegally maintained) brakes fail after an over load is placed on them from the added weight of the super stretch. Had the brakes been rigorously maintained with specialized pads, and maybe open rims for added cooling etc, they could have held up. But...



Very well said.

These super stretch modifications that probably don't take into account the added loads on engines, transmissions, brakes, chassis, and ease of exit seem have the potential to make serious situations into disasters. I think you are right in that there have been other less publicized accidents.

I agree, when it comes to accident investigation, it's the actual, exact cause of the crash that determines liability, ie who is punished for the crash. If the driver had paid for his license, and this had happened, his estate would not be suddenly free from liability. Plenty of drivers with proper licenses are charged with 'Dangerous driving causing death'. Similarly, your vehicle can pass local inspection but there can be something fail, like the electrical system, which is ultimately blamed on the manufacturer, hence so many vehicle recalls.

 

[MsFacetious]

Would a converted limo like that have manual transmission? I assumed it would be automatic.

It being an automatic does not mean you cannot downshift to slow or stop the vehicle. It just means you are likely not going to have a functioning transmission after you do. Much preferred in this scenario.

 

[rainynights]

the coasting text is just horrifying

Each time I check this thread, it just gets more horrific That the passengers (and driver) may have known that they were going to crash is beyond terrifying!

The idea of that is indeed terrifying.

Also from the article (bbm):

Minutes passed and some of the messages sent from the limousine only grew more ominous.

At 1:40 p.m., 15 minutes before the crash, Allison King texted her fiancé.

“She said the brakes were burning and they were coasting,” her mother said.

Four minutes before the fatal accident, Ms. Jackson texted her mother-in-law who was taking care of her daughters, Archer, 4, and Elle, 16 months.

“She was checking to see how the girls were doing,” according to her mother.

Death at the Crossroads: A Ragged Limo, an Anxious Driver and 17 Friends

 

[Mica]

Troopers seek answers in death at motel owned by limo owner


Snip

Officials have not released the identity of the dead man, whose body was taken to a hospital and an autopsy was to be performed.

Saratoga County officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said it appeared the man had been dead for several days.

The property manager, Arnie Cornett, said the dead man lived in a unit that adjoined the motel's office.

The man, who was in his 60s, lived alone but was often visited by his daughter, Cornett said.


________________


Death investigation ongoing at Crest Inn in Wilton

Authorities said they did not initially believe the death involved foul play, but when an autopsy was performed after his death, evidence of a possible injury that could have caused his death was found.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Big rigs also have engine brakes that make a loud sound when slowing down the engine while trying to avoid burning out your air breaks.

But these mod limos probably don't have those.

 

[Mica]

There seems to be confusion in media articles about the ownership of the Crest Inn. It is not owned by Shahed Hussain, at least not as specified on county property records.


The property manager of the Crest Inn and suites said the owner’s name is “Malik” and he lives in Dubai.

Arnie Cornett, the manager at the hotel, identified the owner as “Malik” and said he lived in Dubai. Mr. Hussain, the informant, went by Malik when he helped the F.B.I. infiltrate a mosque in Albany.

Deadly Limo Crash: Vehicle ‘Was Not Supposed to Be on the Road’




The property records for the sleazy motel shows Malik Riaz Hussain as the owner, not Shahed “Malik” Hussain, as some articles state. Shahed Hussain owns Prestige Limo. The limo company used the Crest Inn address as their business address. Shahed is currently in Pakistan.

http://saratoga.sdgnys.com/propdetail.aspx?swis=415600&printkey=12700000030250000000


Malik Riaz Hussain is a man of great wealth and power.....

 

[Herat]

Big rigs also have engine brakes that make a loud sound when slowing down the engine while trying to avoid burning out your air breaks.

But these mod limos probably don't have those.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the conversion from a Ford Excursion SUV to the stretch version would have bothered to do the extra time and expense to add air brakes. In fact, I seriously doubt any modified limo would have undergone this.

Also, the noise from air brakes is considerable and would be distracting and unpleasant to guests wanting that luxury party limo ride and would not be tolerated well

 

[DexterMorgan]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the conversion from a Ford Excursion SUV to the stretch version would have bothered to do the extra time and expense to add air brakes. In fact, I seriously doubt any modified limo would have undergone this.

Also, the noise from air brakes is considerable and would be distracting and unpleasant to guests wanting that luxury party limo ride and would not be tolerated well

I said a engine brake for downhill purposes. Which I understand no limos have them.