GUILTY NY - Vincent Viafore, 46, Newburgh, 19 April 2015 - #1

[kimi_SFC]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...-Missing-New-York-Hudson-River-302204221.html

A calm, soft-spoken Graswald told NBC 4 New York Friday she came to the United States when she was 15 and worked for a few months as a nanny in Greenwich, Connecticut. She had no legal right to be in the U.S. at the time, she said, but she has a green card now. Graswald said she got her first real job tending bar at the age of 21 and is relying on emotional support from her family in Latvia now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/n...r-kayaker-accused-of-killing-fiance.html?_r=0

Ms. Graswald, who first came to this country from Latvia at age 20 as an au pair for a family in Connecticut.


http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/...elika-graswald-poughkeepsie-profile/26742931/
Graswald is not a U.S. citizen, he said, but has a green card valid until 2018.

:gthanks: for taking the time to pull these links silly1
:yourock:


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[kimi_SFC]

:sorry: Sorry if you felt attacked by me. That was totally not my intent. :whiteflag: I was just trying to provide an opinion from a local who lives and works in the communities involved. Differing opinions are great because they open up the discussion and allow people to banter back and forth. As of right now, the only thing I assume is that AG is the only one who truly knows what happened that evening. Everyone else is just trying to make sense of this baffling story. I value the words of my LE and DA over the media, FWIW.

:goodpost:

RBBM: I couldn't have said this any better. This is what makes the WS world go 'round IMO. I look forward to engaging in discussion with those who may not see this case through the same lens as I do. Gaining insight through the perspective of others, whether we agree or not, is why we are here. Active exchange of ideas, sleuthing, and discovery of new information and thought processes is dynamic, and sometimes uncomfortable process (for me anyway) and it evolves with the uncovering of new evidence and information as a case progresses.

We all view cases in our own unique way. I truly appreciate the input from everyone here. :twocents:




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[gitana1]

thank you! I have friends and loved ones who became citizens and English is a big deal in the process (according to my experience with them.) Thanks. So now I wonder... did she have a visa? was she married to an American after coming here legally and obtaining legal resident status via marriage etc? I guess what I'm getting at is if there is going to be a claim of "I dont' speak English" that is going to rub me so wrong... unless I see some other videos in which she is struggling to understand - which would be kind of odd ....after having many videos/interviews in which she clearly did understand and responded appropriately as someone who most certainly does understand. I just cant buy such things as "I'm happy he's dead...drowned" (ok now I'm paraphrasing) but I cant see that as being cultural. That seems personal and serious and cold to me. FWIW I'm not at all anti-immigrant, far from it, in case it may be read that way.

Here's a video of her speaking. Judge for yourself: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2BwqLt7n8

Another part of that interview embedded in the news story. http://westchester.news12.com/news/...xclusive-jail-interview-to-news-12-1.10357943

 

[wfgodot]

Having taught ESL -- and we are actually discussing English as a third language with Graswald -- I can say with certainty that appearances can deceive.

People are assuming she's, like, Vladimir Nabokov or something. Don't imagine so.

 

[kimi_SFC]

Having taught ESL -- and we are actually discussing English as a third language with Graswald -- I can say with certainty that appearances can deceive.

People are assuming she's, like, Vladimir Nabokov or something. Don't imagine so.

Is this what you're referring to?

Vladimir Nabokov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The family spoke Russian, English, and French in their household, and Nabokov was trilingual from an early age. In fact, much to his patriotic father's chagrin, Nabokov could read and write in English before he could in Russian.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Nabokov

:thinking:




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[wfgodot]

Is this what you're referring to?

snip

Yes. There's speaking a language, and then there's mastering a language and thinking in that language. Graswall's good at the first, I'll agree. The other, Nabokovian, masteries? Doubt it.

 

[silly1]

snip

Yes. There's speaking a language, and then there's mastering a language and thinking in that language. Graswall's good at the first, I'll agree. The other, Nabokovian, masteries? Doubt it.

Very true and I'm sure she hasn't mastered all of the idiosyncrasies of our language. Do you think that the questions they were asking her would have been that complex? The DA states that she made oral and written statements admitting her guilt. Maybe she was intimidated by the language they were using and therefore "spoke too much. (as she stated previously.) Would that negate the fact that she admitted her guilt? I would hope not. I have never followed a case that involved a language barrier/potential language barrier.

 

[epiphany]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...-Missing-New-York-Hudson-River-302204221.html

A calm, soft-spoken Graswald told NBC 4 New York Friday she came to the United States when she was 15 and worked for a few months as a nanny in Greenwich, Connecticut. She had no legal right to be in the U.S. at the time, she said, but she has a green card now. Graswald said she got her first real job tending bar at the age of 21 and is relying on emotional support from her family in Latvia now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/n...r-kayaker-accused-of-killing-fiance.html?_r=0

Ms. Graswald, who first came to this country from Latvia at age 20 as an au pair for a family in Connecticut.


http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/...elika-graswald-poughkeepsie-profile/26742931/
Graswald is not a U.S. citizen, he said, but has a green card valid until 2018.

From ^^

Came to US at 15 yo.

Nanny/au pair in CT at 20 yo for a few months.

Bartender at 21 yo.


Unless she lived in a Little Odessa type community similar to BB in Brooklyn, where stores, neighbors, daily interactions provide the opportunity to use her first language/s, her exposure to her native language would be quite limited. Therefore, she would likely learn English quicker and have a better command of the language than other immigrants who remain in an enclave with other similar native speakers for years.

One of my children went to HS with a large pop of Russian speaking teens, and I was always amazed to learn they at arrived in NYC at 12 yo or older. Incredible command of the English language, no native accent remaining, here & there might hear a trace of an accent with a word or two.

I believe the language barrier argument may be a difficult one to accept in AG's case.

"It felt good knowing he was going to die."

For example, ^^ very difficult to explain this one.

 

[epiphany]

What could the question have been, IF that statement was a response to a question asked by LE?

Ques: "How did you feel when you realized, when you understood, that you would not be able to save, to help V?"

 

[gitana1]

Having taught ESL -- and we are actually discussing English as a third language with Graswald -- I can say with certainty that appearances can deceive.

People are assuming she's, like, Vladimir Nabokov or something. Don't imagine so.

I lived SSL so I know what it is to speak another language and have people think you're more fluent than you are. So you're right.

However, certain phrases and words betray true fluency, IMO. I think Graswald has shown that: "I'm numb. I'm devastated," Graswald told the magazine from Orange County jail in upstate New York. "The truth will prevail." http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7347460

 

[Montjoy]

This is so horribly off-topic, but I watch a fair bit of hockey and footy with my dad. We both know bits and pieces of other languages -- enough so that we wouldn't starve or whatnot if we were dropped into someplace in Europe or South America -- but we're regularly blown away by just how well so many "ESL" athletes speak English. There are "EFL" athletes who go abroad to ply their trades, but I've rarely heard of them picking up much or their destination languages. (Again, forgive the OT -- this is likely a conversation for another thread, but I started wondering about it when I saw two superb posters talking about/around it, and saw one of my mentor's prof's mentioned.)

 

[hot cawfeee]

Montjoy---- IMO its from necessity that athletes learn to be proficient in English-- watch alot of hockey also (very sad about NY Rangers)---and in another language as well. OT-ish --- a family member played pro basketball overseas and had to learn to speak the language and not rely solely on English

 

[hot cawfeee]

I will assume that she is communicating quite well with her defense team

 

[silly1]

If you scroll down to a May 29th article posted at 10:33pm by the Poughkeepsie Journal, there are a couple of comments referencing AG's fluency with English as noted by people who state they knew her and worked with her. FWIW.

https://www.facebook.com/PoughkeepsieJournal

It would be interesting to see how they questioned AG. I wonder if we will get to see/hear a transcription of the questioning during the trial.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Physical Evidence Scant, Focus Is on Statements in Kayak Case

“One might think that a confession from the defendant’s own mouth would be the best sort of evidence that the prosecution could hope for,” said Stuart P. Green, a law professor at Rutgers University in Newark. “But it’s often not,” he said. “A person who has just suffered the trauma of losing a loved one in such circumstances may be under tremendous stress. She may be confused and easily subject to suggestion.”

...

Mr. Portale said after the arraignment that the two separate charges of murder and manslaughter — one intentional and the other reckless — showed that the prosecution lacked a theory of what transpired. “A person can’t have two different mind-sets when they commit the same act,” he said, “so I think it’s a signal.”

...

As evidence, prosecutors said that she removed a plug from his kayak, so that it would fill with water. But paddling experts say the type of drainage plug in Mr. Viafore’s kayak, if missing, should not have caused it to flood.

...

“In a case where there is little physical evidence, then the prosecutor has to rely on more than motive or state of mind,” said Deborah Gramiccioni, executive director of New York University’s Center on Administration of Criminal Law and a former federal prosecutor. “Statements that speak to a defendant’s state of mind offer relevant information that a jury could consider,” she said. “But without corroborating evidence, those statements present a real uphill battle for prosecutors in general.”

...

Then there are the Facebook posts, in which Ms. Graswald is seen days after Mr. Viafore’s disappearance smiling broadly in selfies, playing with her cat, visiting an animal shelter and doing a cartwheel. Whether they will be admissible at trial is uncertain. Jeanine F. Pirro, a former Westchester County district attorney and host of Fox News Channel’s “Justice With Judge Jeanine.” “The prosecution will say it’s inconsistent with the behavior of someone whose fiancé just died. And the defense will say, ‘Wait a minute, maybe she’s just blowing off steam.’ ” Ms. Pirro, who has followed the case, predicted that jurors might find the conflicting details baffling. “It is a somewhat complicated case,” she said. “On the one hand, she’s engaged to be married to this guy and everyone who knows them says they are happy. But then you’ve got a woman saying things that are outrageous.”

That may explain why prosecutors this week were still asking for the public to provide any information about the couple’s relationship.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/30/n...case-a-focus-on-suspects-statements.html?_r=0

 

[OldSteve]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/30/n...case-a-focus-on-suspects-statements.html?_r=0

Some of this, especially mention of her doing cartwheels, takes me back to the Amanda Knox trial and how she was portrayed in the press...
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html

A big difference here is we have Angelika saying she pushed his paddle away, and she tampered with his kayak; and she stood to gain from life insurance of 250K.
Her defense is going to have a difficult time with those IMO, and of course her saying she was glad he was dead (I think before he was even found?) does not help.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Some of this, especially mention of her doing cartwheels, takes me back to the Amanda Knox trial and how she was portrayed in the press...
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html

A big difference here is we have Angelika saying she pushed his paddle away, and she tampered with his kayak; and she stood to gain from life insurance of 250K.
Her defense is going to have a difficult time with those IMO, and of course her saying she was glad he was dead (I think before he was even found?) does not help.

I don't think it's been reported that she said she "pushed his paddle away":

She “moved the paddle away from him as he was struggling to stay afloat with water temperatures in the 40-degree range, and failed to render him assistance, including timely calls for help,” according to Orange County DA David Hoovler, who did not elaborate or divulge the source of that informationfrom whether from a witness or another source.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/26/woman-pushed-paddle-away-from-fiance-in-kayak-killing-prosecutors/

"She moved the paddle away from him as he was struggling to stay afloat with water temperatures in the 40 degree range, and failed to render him assistance including timely calls for help," the Orange County, New York, District Attorney's Office said in a news release Tuesday.

Graswald's lawyer, Richard Portale, was quick to dismiss the claims made in the indictment.

"Says who?" Portale said Tuesday, according to CBS. "This is some new contortion and mischaracterization of some oral statement she's made. It's not impressive."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/27/angelika-graswald-pushed-paddle_n_7450324.html

 

[BunnyHop]

Portale refused to say how Graswald, who used to work as a waitress and bartender, would pay for their services, calling the question inappropriate.

If acquitted, Graswald would be the beneficiary of Viafore’s $250,000 life-insurance policy.

http://nypost.com/2015/05/29/kayak-killer-says-fiance-was-wasted-when-he-capsized/

I would like to know how the Insurance Co. feels about this, and how they will deal with it.
Any ideas?

 

[JerseyGirl]

Her next court appearance is scheduled for June 22.

http://putnam.dailyvoice.com/news/woman-accused-fiances-death-hudson-river-pleads-not-guilty

 

[JerseyGirl]

Portale refused to say how Graswald, who used to work as a waitress and bartender, would pay for their services, calling the question inappropriate.

Her attorney said that she has been forced to seek donations on crowdfunding sites to pay for her defense.

Is there a page? I don't remember.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...lty-death-fiance-during-kayaking-trip-n366946

Portale said many community members, including experienced kayakers, have reached out in support of Graswald.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/...pleads-guilty-kayaker-fiancs-murder/28181813/