NY - Woman to become NY firefighter despite failing crucial fitness test

[Cubby]

I grew up living on the 11th floor in a condo building. In all the years we owned that unit, I only recall one fire on the 7th floor that might have effected more than one unit. In that building it was usually the paramedics for seniors. (we were the first kids in the building way back.... ) When I was a kid we stayed in the Hancock building.... My dad worked on the 90 something floor downtown for his entire working career. Never recall a fire or news of a fire related issue with anyone I know working downtown.

We have lots of buildings in the burbs that are higher than 5 stories.... I would not feel any local FD's are incompetent because they use the test used by FD's across the country.

 

[Soulmagent]

Presumably the best way to describe where the fire is located would be to accurately describe where it is located.
From the question and the answer, we got no clue if C is the accurate answer. I would pick D because we know that's accurate even if less specific.

I read this book once ,titled 101 ways test are designed to trick you. It was amazing what it taught me. If you ever have to take any kind of test for anything get it. I bought it when I had to take a pharm tech test. It helped . I make my kids read it going into middle school. It shows you why all the answers are wrong but the right ones. Really one of my best buys ever.

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/20...e-are-fires/isCPrIPauX078UKHdixu0K/story.html

The number of career firefighters per capita in the United States is essentially unchanged since 1986, but of the roughly 30 million calls America’s fire departments responded to in 2011, the last year for which statistics are available, only about 1.4 million were fire-related—down by more than 50 percent since 1981, according to the National Fire Protection Association. And while the total number of calls being routed to fire departments is higher than it’s ever been, only 5 percent of them are fire related. Most had to do with medical emergencies like heart attacks and car accidents.

 

[sonjay]

I get that and having lived in the Chicago area, that is a risk those who choose to reside or work in a skyscraper take. Ladders on trucks don't reach that high, nor are there hoses that reach that high....... So it's more than just a test of physical strength on the effectiveness of firefighting in skyscrapers.

Other cities such as Chicago, LA..... don't use the exclusionary NYC FST test and seem to fair fine. What makes NYC skyscrapers different than those in LA or Chicago?

I fail to see and will continue to fail to see how Wax is incompetent and a danger if she meets the standards used by the rest of the country and just not used in NY.

There are more of them, and more of them that don't have sprinkler systems. And exactly what you wrote -- ladders don't reach that high, and hoses don't reach that high.

So there are many many more people on upper floors of skyscrapers without sprinkler systems who need to be rescued. As in, carried down 20, 30, 50, 80 or more flights of stairs by a firefighter wearing hot, heavy protective gear, fighting his way through flames and smoke, and trying not to use up all the air in his canister.

Frankly I think it's pretty cavalier to suggest that living or working in a skyscraper is simply a risk people choose, while simultaneously asserting that it's perfectly fine to lower the standards for the firefighters whose job is to rescue those people if their building catches fire. Living or working in a skyscraper is a risk, yes, but it's one that can be mitigated by a city that maintains adequate standards for its firefighters. Or exacerbated by a city that fails to do so.

 

[katydid23]

Presumably the best way to describe where the fire is located would be to accurately describe where it is located.
From the question and the answer, we got no clue if C is the accurate answer. I would pick D because we know that's accurate even if less specific.

Before the applicants take the test, they are able to read up on the practice tests and LEARN what the FD is looking for. Anyone doing so would know that C was the correct answer. When first responders fill out reports, they ALWAYS use terms like So East corner, etc. It is not a secret. The internet is full of practice tests for free.

 

[Cubby]

Living or working in a skyscraper without sprinklers is a choice. It is also a choice of the building inspector who issues an occupancy permit.

The standards which work for the rest of the country outside of NYC are fine with me. I don't find them lower. It's NYFD that seems to find the rest of the country and the USDOJ are of lower standard.

 

[jjenny]

Before the applicants take the test, they are able to read up on the practice tests and LEARN what the FD is looking for. Anyone doing so would know that C was the correct answer. When first responders fill out reports, they ALWAYS use terms like So East corner, etc. It is not a secret. The internet is full of practice tests for free.

You should be able to answer a question without already knowing (from practice tests) what the supposedly "correct" answer is.

 

[katydid23]

You should be able to answer a question without already knowing (from practice tests) what the supposedly "correct" answer is.

Why would you? Doesn't everyone prepare for tests by studying? Why would anyone NOT prepare for such an important test?

You were confused by the test, and if you studied by taking the practice tests then you would get the correct answers they are looking for. Why wouldn't someone that is serious about moving further along in the process take the time to study for the test?

 

[Trident]

No, you're still not understanding the question. The question is not "Where is the fire located?" The question, as written, is obviously not focused on where the fire is located, but on how the firefighter should describe where it's located.

I believe in many tests a good portion is predicated on understanding the question.

 

[sonjay]

Living or working in a skyscraper without sprinklers is a choice. It is also a choice of the building inspector who issues an occupancy permit.

The standards which work for the rest of the country outside of NYC are fine with me. I don't find them lower. It's NYFD that seems to find the rest of the country and the USDOJ are of lower standard.

That's because NYC has more skyscrapers without sprinkler systems than any other city in the country. This has already been explained. What is adequate for Chicago or LA is not adequate for NY.

The standards should be appropriate for the work that's required. It would be silly to require every FD in the entire country to have physical standards for firefighters equal to that of NYC. And it would be silly to require the FDNY to lower its physical standards to that of the rest of the country. In the case of NYC, there is a reason the standards need to be higher.

 

[Momoffourboys]

The NYFD has their own requirements. She failed to meet them. She sould not be a firefighter.

I want to be a surgeon. I don't meet the requirements. I should notbe a surgeon.

Remember 9/11? That's how NY differs from LA or Chicago. Believe me when I tell you. I lived through it.

 

[Cubby]

The NYFD has their own requirements. She failed to meet them. She sould not be a firefighter.

I want to be a surgeon. I don't meet the requirements. I should notbe a surgeon.

Remember 9/11? That's how NY differs from LA or Chicago. Believe me when I tell you. I lived through it.

I hope that's a surgeon in NY, because it's a bit of a leap to make the assumption NYC's skyscrapers, sprinkler systems and building codes are some how different and superior in some kind of way from the rest of the country.

 

[zapped]

The NYFD has their own requirements. She failed to meet them. She sould not be a firefighter.

I want to be a surgeon. I don't meet the requirements. I should notbe a surgeon.

Remember 9/11? That's how NY differs from LA or Chicago. Believe me when I tell you. I lived through it.

Well said.

I'll only add that its not a question of NY's skyscrapers, sprinklers and building codes being better than the rest of the country.

With the exception of L.A, New York City has more people per square mile who are dependent on competent rescue personel, than any other city in the country.

The events of 911 should serve as poignant and painful reminder of that to us all.

When standards are lowered like this we all lose and IMO saving someones feeling isnt worth a single life lost.

 

[sonjay]

You should be able to answer a question without already knowing (from practice tests) what the supposedly "correct" answer is.

The test is for elevation to probationary firefighter, after completing academy training. No one gets to just walk in off the street and take the test and become a probie. They take the academy training first, then they take the test.

Nevertheless, the sample question provided is easy and obvious, IMO. Anyone who has gone through the academy training and is still unable to pass a test with questions such as that one really has no business being a firefighter. IMO, JMO, MOO and all that jazz.

 

[sonjay]

I hope that's a surgeon in NY, because it's a bit of a leap to make the assumption NYC's skyscrapers, sprinkler systems and building codes are some how different and superior in some kind of way from the rest of the country.

No, just the opposite. NYC has more old skyscrapers that have been grandfathered in under old building codes. They lack sprinkler systems. Therefore, NYC's sprinkler systems are inferior in some kind of way from the rest of the country. What they lack in building code compliance, they have to make up for with plain old-fashioned brute physical strength.

 

[Cubby]

No, just the opposite. NYC has more old skyscrapers that have been grandfathered in under old building codes. They lack sprinkler systems. Therefore, NYC's sprinkler systems are inferior in some kind of way from the rest of the country. What they lack in building code compliance, they have to make up for with plain old-fashioned brute physical strength.

Respectfully, the above example is a whole different topic. Any building can be retrofitted with sprinklers. Building owners complain about the costs to do so. We end up compromising safety because of cost, not physical strength. Let's not pretend updating buildings is impossible. It's often not done because it isn't financially profitable and those who issue city permits and make the laws requiring minimum safety requirements are the ones doing the actual compromising.

 

[jjenny]

Why would you? Doesn't everyone prepare for tests by studying? Why would anyone NOT prepare for such an important test?

You were confused by the test, and if you studied by taking the practice tests then you would get the correct answers they are looking for. Why wouldn't someone that is serious about moving further along in the process take the time to study for the test?

I am not the one confused by the test.
The question and answer set is very poorly written. The answer that is supposedly correct could be factually wrong.
They don't provide necessary information in the question to pick C. Sure it gives the most details. But there is no information on whether this detail is correct.

 

[SugarQueen]

Since NYFD has tougher tests why can't she just test for another location outside the city? I'm sorry but allowing her to be part of a fire dept where she cannot pass the test is wrong. I wonder how long before there are problems within the fire company she is assigned to? Who is going to be as comfortable working with her as they would with someone who passed the test?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

This story bothers me...because it's one thing if a woman can do a job equally or as well as a man. More power to her.

But it's another thing entirely when the woman does the job to a substandard degree compared to her peers and gets the job in spite of that simply because she is a woman--just to satisfy some artificial quotient. THAT puts the firefighters who work with her at risk, and (being an avid ff fan) that is NOT okay in my books.

 

[sonjay]

Respectfully, the above example is a whole different topic. Any building can be retrofitted with sprinklers. Building owners complain about the costs to do so. We end up compromising safety because of cost, not physical strength. Let's not pretend updating buildings is impossible. It's often not done because it isn't financially profitable and those who issue city permits and make the laws requiring minimum safety requirements are the ones doing the actual compromising.

Respectfully, nobody is pretending that updating buildings is impossible.

The FDNY doesn't control the building codes and has no ability, money or authority to do anything about those older buildings. It has to deal with the reality that exists, not the ideal world that we would all like to live in (but which doesn't exist).