OH - 9 killed + Gunman, 16 injured, Mass Shooting, Oregon District, Dayton, 4 Aug 2019

[Colorado303]

Put them in alternative learning environments, where they can at least be closely monitored. There is no perfect answer. I think sometimes people are just bad and there is no way to weed these people out of society until they have already done something horrible.

There is also the stigma that comes from having a “bad child.” The parents know they will be judged and most of the time they love their child. They probably thought they could keep him from snapping if they kept him close.

I don’t know what the right answer is in these situations. Who does the responsibility fall on?

It’s sad but the stigma of having a “bad” child is very real and contributes to the problem. If a child is physically disabled, seriously injured or has cancer communities often rally to support the family. That’s seldom the case for parents doing their best to raise a child who’s potentially dangerous due to cognitive defects or mental illness. They are often labeled responsible for the child’s problem and shunned instead.

What should these parents do when one of their kids wants to kill the new baby or burn down the house with everyone in it? What should they do if their 14 yr old son gives indications he will rape their 12 year old daughter the first chance he gets? Even if they can find qualified, knowledgable mental health help resources, medication and therapy may not be able to address the deficit and certainly not immediately.

Sometimes it’s necessary to remove the child from the home to keep the other children safe. As is the case w/stalkers, LE and DFS generally won’t do anything unless or until the child does something terrible. Private institutions are prohibitively expensive for all but the wealthiest families (and insurance rarely takes care of it).

Unfortunately, in todays US system “abandoning” the child and making them a ward of the state is sometimes the only way parents can make sure their kids will qualify for and receive the mental health resources so badly needed. This is a gutwrenching, heart-breaking decision made that much worse knowing they’ll be judged by others to be a terrible parent. Others smugly certain they could do better with no appreciation for what the parents have been dealing with. Others quick to judge while actually understanding very little. These same people will be first in line to criticize the parents for not “doing something” if/when the mentally ill child harms someone else. They are not helping.

I’m not defending the Dayton shooters parents, but I’m sure not willing to judge them yet based only on rumors, speculation and the few facts released to date. But that’s just me.

 

[Colorado303]

DBM

 

[Colorado303]

I read that comment as sarcasm, considering the first line of the post. Because it is very true that until you know a kid like this, it’s almost impossible to imagine a reality where there is no help.

And if you are living that reality, it is very easy for others to make judgments like "if the parents had been on the ball in the first place the kid wouldn't even need help."

Thank you! That was exactly my point.

 

[firebird]

From my local radio
Steve Hooper: When the most recent debate when they all said free healthcare, they all raised their hands. That’s what pushed him over the edge. He felt he was justified. He felt he ran out of alternatives.

Steve Hooper is a 30 year veteran of the FBI. Hooper said the El Paso shooter, during interviews, says he was triggered after watching the DNC debate where all the candidates raised their hands to provide “health insurance” to illegal immigrants.

It was the insanity at the Democrat Presidential debates that triggered the shooter, not Trump’s language.



Here is the audio from the Mike Broomhead Show this morning.

Steve Hooper: When the most recent debate when they all said free healthcare, they all raised their hands. That’s what pushed him over the edge. He felt he was justified. He felt he ran out of alternatives.

 

[rsd1200]

From my local radio
Steve Hooper: When the most recent debate when they all said free healthcare, they all raised their hands. That’s what pushed him over the edge. He felt he was justified. He felt he ran out of alternatives.

Steve Hooper is a 30 year veteran of the FBI. Hooper said the El Paso shooter, during interviews, says he was triggered after watching the DNC debate where all the candidates raised their hands to provide “health insurance” to illegal immigrants.

It was the insanity at the Democrat Presidential debates that triggered the shooter, not Trump’s language.



Here is the audio from the Mike Broomhead Show this morning.

Steve Hooper: When the most recent debate when they all said free healthcare, they all raised their hands. That’s what pushed him over the edge. He felt he was justified. He felt he ran out of alternatives.

Still falls on him. You don't get to shoot people just because you feels get hurt over a potus debate.

 

[MsBetsy]

Put them in alternative learning environments, where they can at least be closely monitored. There is no perfect answer. I think sometimes people are just bad and there is no way to weed these people out of society until they have already done something horrible.

There is also the stigma that comes from having a “bad child.” The parents know they will be judged and most of the time they love their child. They probably thought they could keep him from snapping if they kept him close.

I don’t know what the right answer is in these situations. Who does the responsibility fall on?

Yes, as teachers, we find ourselves playing the role of parent, counselor, police officer, mentor, advocate, as well as many other roles.

It never used to be that way. It used to be just teaching.
But that was before my time so I can't even imagine only having to be responsible for lesson plans and correcting papers.

Alternate Ed can work for some, but it also isolates kids from the more positive role models and I think they really need to have others around them who are a positive influence. But you can't always mainstream them when they disrupt or harass other students.

A big problem with many parents with children with behavior problems is that they can be in denial. You can't get help for your child if you don't think there is a problem or you place the blame on the school or others.

From what it sounds like, the mother of this killer either didn't want to believe her child had some serious problems or didn't know how to deal with it.

How the school didn't recognize his need for help or attempt to get him evaluated I have no idea. Imo

 

[firebird]

It’s sad but the stigma of having a “bad” child is very real and contributes to the problem. If a child is physically disabled, seriously injured or has cancer communities often rally to support the family. That’s seldom the case for parents doing their best to raise a child who’s potentially dangerous due to cognitive defects or mental illness. They are often labeled responsible for the child’s problem and shunned instead.

What should these parents do when one of their kids wants to kill the new baby or burn down the house with everyone in it? What should they do if their 14 yr old son gives indications he will rape their 12 year old daughter the first chance he gets? Even if they can find qualified, knowledgable mental health help resources, medication and therapy may not be able to address the deficit and certainly not immediately.

Sometimes it’s necessary to remove the child from the home to keep the other children safe. As is the case w/stalkers, LE and DFS generally won’t do anything unless or until the child does something terrible. Private institutions are prohibitively expensive for all but the wealthiest families (and insurance rarely takes care of it).

Unfortunately, in todays US system “abandoning” the child and making them a ward of the state is sometimes the only way parents can make sure their kids will qualify for and receive the mental health resources so badly needed. This is a gutwrenching, heart-breaking decision made that much worse knowing they’ll be judged by others to be a terrible parent. Others smugly certain they could do better with no appreciation for what the parents have been dealing with. Others quick to judge while actually understanding very little. These same people will be first in line to criticize the parents for not “doing something” if/when the mentally ill child harms someone else. They are not helping.

I’m not defending the Dayton shooters parents, but I’m sure not willing to judge them yet based only on rumors, speculation and the few facts released to date. But that’s just me.

The problem is, imo that the "mental health resources" don't do a damn thing to fix people who are this type of broken. In the past, they were medicated and/or restrained to the point of 3rd party safety. But that can't happen anymore. In our current society, with our "rules" regarding involuntary treatment, there is zero possibility this type of mentally ill person can be removed as a threat.

 

[firebird]

Still falls on him. You don't get to shoot people just because you feels get hurt over a potus debate.

Well, yeah. Just sayin' what his "motivation" wasn't

 

[firebird]

Yes, as teachers, we find ourselves playing the role of parent, counselor, police officer, mentor, advocate, as well as many other roles.

Imo, None of these are the roles of teachers except maybe mentor in the very limited scope of academic success. No offense to you, but when teachers refer to themselves as my "partners" I'm like, No, you're there to teach math or whatever...period.

 

[Colorado303]

My apologies if I missed the implications. That is why I stated "face value". Tired I guess and thanks for the clarification.

No problem. I was tired when I first read your response and didn’t realize you misunderstood mine. I almost came unglued. Ironic since we were agreeing w/each other all along and just didn’t know it. Fortunately @IzzyBlanche seems to be better rested than both of us and quickly straightened out the misunderstanding. Thank you Izzy!

 

[Breezie]

It’s sad but the stigma of having a “bad” child is very real and contributes to the problem. If a child is physically disabled, seriously injured or has cancer communities often rally to support the family. That’s seldom the case for parents doing their best to raise a child who’s potentially dangerous due to cognitive defects or mental illness. They are often labeled responsible for the child’s problem and shunned instead.

What should these parents do when one of their kids wants to kill the new baby or burn down the house with everyone in it? What should they do if their 14 yr old son gives indications he will rape their 12 year old daughter the first chance he gets? Even if they can find qualified, knowledgable mental health help resources, medication and therapy may not be able to address the deficit and certainly not immediately.

Sometimes it’s necessary to remove the child from the home to keep the other children safe. As is the case w/stalkers, LE and DFS generally won’t do anything unless or until the child does something terrible. Private institutions are prohibitively expensive for all but the wealthiest families (and insurance rarely takes care of it).

Unfortunately, in todays US system “abandoning” the child and making them a ward of the state is sometimes the only way parents can make sure their kids will qualify for and receive the mental health resources so badly needed. This is a gutwrenching, heart-breaking decision made that much worse knowing they’ll be judged by others to be a terrible parent. Others smugly certain they could do better with no appreciation for what the parents have been dealing with. Others quick to judge while actually understanding very little. These same people will be first in line to criticize the parents for not “doing something” if/when the mentally ill child harms someone else. They are not helping.

I’m not defending the Dayton shooters parents, but I’m sure not willing to judge them yet based only on rumors, speculation and the few facts released to date. But that’s just me.

To Get Mental Health Help For A Child, Desperate Parents Relinquish Custody

This family made a very difficult decision for their son and their other children. Their son got the help he needed and is doing well.

When Toni and Jim Hoy adopted their son Daniel through the foster care system, he was an affectionate toddler. They did not plan to give him back to the state of Illinois, ever.

But as Daniel grew older, he changed. He began to show signs of serious mental illness that eventually manifested in violent outbursts and nearly a dozen psychiatric hospitalizations, starting at age 10. Doctors said he needed intensive, specialized care away from home — institutional services that cost at least $100,000 a year.

One night, Daniel picked up his brother Chip, threw him down the stairs and punched him over and over before their dad pulled the boys apart.

Daniel went back to the hospital for the 11th time in two years. That's when the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services gave the Hoys an ultimatum.

"[They] basically said, 'If you bring him home, we're going to charge you with child endangerment for failure to protect your other kids,' " Toni remembers. " 'And if you leave him at the hospital, we'll charge you with neglect.' "

"If any of our other kids got hurt, once we brought him home, they would take the other kids," Jim says. "They put our backs against the wall, and they didn't give us any options." So the couple left Daniel at the hospital.

 

[firebird]

"[They] basically said, 'If you bring him home, we're going to charge you with child endangerment for failure to protect your other kids,' " Toni remembers. " 'And if you leave him at the hospital, we'll charge you with neglect.' "

Reason 12007 why the government should not be in charge of anything.

 

[rsd1200]

Well, yeah. Just sayin' what his "motivation" wasn't

If that really tipped him over the edge, then he was in a very delicate condition. I think this had been brewing since h.s. I also think this was a final lash out to his parents, too.

 

[firebird]

If that really tipped him over the edge, then he was in a very delicate condition. I think this had been brewing since h.s. I also think this was a final lash out to his parents, too.

Oh my goodness....nonono. The radio discussion was about what set the EL PASO SHOOTER off. I'm in the totally wrong thread and I apologize profusely!

 

[MsBetsy]

Imo, None of these are the roles of teachers except maybe mentor in the very limited scope of academic success. No offense to you, but when teachers refer to themselves as my "partners" I'm like, No, you're there to teach math or whatever...period.

Well, I've never heard a teacher refer to themselves as a partner, (unless maybe to a teacher's assistant) but unfortunately when parents don't teach their kids at home the role is left up to the teacher.
It's not the way it should be, but sometimes it's necessary to teach social skills to prepare them for the real world. Imo

 

[firebird]

Well, I've never heard a teacher refer to themselves as a partner, (unless maybeIt's to a teacher's assistant) but unfortunately when parents don't teach their kids at home the role is left up to the teacher.
It's not the way it should be, but sometimes it's necessary to teach social skills to prepare them for the real world. Imo

It's a thing. Here's an example

Parents as Partners | Texas School Guide

But regardless of what parents do or do not teach their kids at home, that role is never the role of the teacher. I do understand how current culture seems to impose that obligation, but I have huge issues with that.

 

[MsBetsy]

It's a thing. Here's an example

Parents as Partners | Texas School Guide

But regardless of what parents do or do not teach their kids at home, that role is never the role of the teacher. I do understand how current culture seems to impose that obligation, but I have huge issues with that.

Oh, sorry! Yeah, I've never thought of a parent as a partner but I see what you mean.
Well, of course parents are encouraged to be involved and they are part of the planning process especially with Special Needs students with IEP'S.
I've only taught in NY and maybe in Texas parents are more involved but unfortunately the parents of many of the at-risk kids are very uninvolved. Or absent all together. Imo

 

[MsFacetious]

If that really tipped him over the edge, then he was in a very delicate condition. I think this had been brewing since h.s. I also think this was a final lash out to his parents, too.

What's really ironic is that the thing that allegedly tipped the El Paso shooter over the edge is also the thing that may have prevented the Dayton shooter from going over the edge.

If that mental health treatment had been available and mandated after the hit list incident, we may not be having this discussion. Maybe even El Paso would have been prevented, don't know about that yet.

 

[rsd1200]

Oh my goodness....nonono. The radio discussion was about what set the EL PASO SHOOTER off. I'm in the totally wrong thread and I apologize profusely!

Oh, that's okay, easy to do. I do think the Dayton shooter may have been pushing away/punishing his parents, one last time, for good, though.

 

[rsd1200]

What's really ironic is that the thing that allegedly tipped the El Paso shooter over the edge is also the thing that may have prevented the Dayton shooter from going over the edge.

If that mental health treatment had been available and mandated after the hit list incident, we may not be having this discussion. Maybe even El Paso would have been prevented, don't know about that yet.

It's possible, but when you have a 17 y/o who is forced to go to mental health treatment, and they don't "click" with their doc, it's a Highway to Hell. Personal experience.