OH OH - Brian Shaffer, 27, Columbus, 1 April 2006 - #3

[XPh]

Again, that's a lot of assumptions. It sounds like you are describing a haunted castle with hidden rooms.

It's one assumption: that there is someplace very hidden that he could have stumbled into that concealed him extremely well. It's not a haunted castle. The building has a roof. The building has ventilation ducts. There was a whole construction site nearby--who knows what sort of treacherous areas could have been there.

Given the lack of evidence, there are going to be some assumptions to every theory in this case. I'd say this theory has far fewer than others I've seen.

 

[embufum]

You must mean the door with the exit sign above it. Which is across that hallway from the construction exit door, right ? But yes, if that exit door it would have had an alarm. But that door wouldn’t have led to the construction site, would it? I could be getting a little confused, lol.

The door on the left is the emergency exit door. Across from that is where you entered into the construction zone. From the way Det Hurst describes it he would have to get down into the construction zone which meant he had to climb down a ladder.

 

[Ozoner]

Again, that's a lot of assumptions. It sounds like you are describing a haunted castle with hidden rooms.

You are making at least as many assumptions as anyone else here.

1) You're assuming that the same stage that you observed in 2018 was present in 2006.

2) You're assuming that because you were able to crawl under the stage unobserved with three or four other people in the bar, Brian would have been able to do so in a crowd.

3) You're assuming that even if a person was stealthy enough to crawl under a stage unobserved in a crowded bar, that same person would have been incapable of enough stealth to squeeze through a loosely chained door unobserved.

4) You're assuming that the cops who had their backs to the construction exit could not possibly have missed a person capable of enough stealth to crawl under a stage in a crowded bar squeezing through the loosely chained door of that exit.

5) You're assuming that there could not possibly have been any other access point to the construction site.

6) You're assuming that Brian did not visit the construction site because tracking dogs did not detect his scent, yet somehow these same dogs can be excused for not detecting his scent under the stage where he allegedly hid for at least thirty minutes, even though he would have been shedding the microscopic particles that tracking dogs detect all the while.

7) You're assuming that LE had assistance from construction workers while searching the construction site.

If I took the time to go back through your posts , I could probably find more.

You're also choosing to ignore important evidence:

A. The hideous stench mentioned by patrons at the theater complex next to the bar.

B. The strong parallels to other cases in which missing people were found to have died from positional asphyxia after becoming lodged in obscure crevices, chimneys, or air ducts.

 

[embufum]

You are making at least as many assumptions as anyone else here.

1) You're assuming that the same stage that you observed in 2018 was present in 2006.

Correct

2) You're assuming that because you were able to crawl under the stage unobserved with three or four other people in the bar, Brian would have been able to do so in a crowd.

I explained why I thought so. Even if someone saw him who would even care? Wouldn't they just assume a band member was getting something under the stage?

3) You're assuming that even if a person was stealthy enough to crawl under a stage unobserved in a crowded bar, that same person would have been incapable of enough stealth to squeeze through a loosely chained door unobserved.

No stealth required to crawl under a stage and I never said Brian couldn't slip though the door. I did point out his build. Det Hurst has the last say on this and he said it was possible.

4) You're assuming that the cops who had their backs to the construction exit could not possibly have missed a person capable of enough stealth to crawl under a stage in a crowded bar squeezing through the loosely chained door of that exit.

When did the cops have their back to the construction exit?


5) You're assuming that there could not possibly have been any other access point to the construction site.

I don't have to assume. No where has it ever been said that Brian could have gotten in there any other way. If someone makes up another way it's up to them to prove it.

6) You're assuming that Brian did not visit the construction site because tracking dogs did not detect his scent, yet somehow these same dogs can be excused for not detecting his scent under the stage where he allegedly hid for at least thirty minutes, even though he would have been shedding the microscopic particles that tracking dogs detect all the while.

I actually never said Brian did not visit the construction site. In fact I posted that Det Hurst said he may have and they tracked his scent to a Wendy's but they were not 100% sure it was him. When did the dogs search the bar? I wasn't aware that they did?

7) You're assuming that LE had assistance from construction workers while searching the construction site.

Not construction workers per say but definitely maintenance workers who knew the floor plan and had keys to locked doors. Do you think they just walked in there with out any keys and zero knowledge of the floor plan and hoped they covered the building from top to bottom? ?

If I took the time to go back through your posts , I could probably find more.

Please do. I've said before I'm not stuck on my theory. I do think it possible that Brian could have got into the construction area, but from what was said about the time line and Clint and Meredith and other obstacles Brian had to get by I'm still saying my theory is just as viable if not more.

You're also choosing to ignore important evidence:

A. The hideous stench mentioned by patrons at the theater complex next to the bar.

Proof ?

B. The strong parallels to other cases in which missing people were found to have died from positional asphyxia after becoming lodged in obscure crevices, chimneys, or air ducts.

Could you please name some of these strong parallels or cases? Remember that just because other people have been found in a building doesn't mean that it applies to Brian. Each person's disappearance is unique. I know of no other cases that strongly mirrors Brian's

Where you been I missed you I answered above. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

 

[embufum]

Ozoner brought up the dogs and picking up Brian's scent under the stage. I'm not sure if they ever mentioned bringing the dogs into the bar since they already knew he was there but let's assume that they did.

Since there were so many people in there could the dogs pick up his scent? Assuming they could wouldn't these dogs be all over the place inside that bar? I mean given the amount of time he was there I'd bet these dogs would have been walking in circles. Also, Brian was at that bar twice that night. Which scent were they picking up?

As far as the stage area goes, Since Brian said he was going to talk to the band and we can assume he at least walked that way or had been there at some point that night and multiple times how would the dogs reaction lead anyone to believe that Brian was under the stage?

When I was there I saw stuff that was stored under there it obviously had to have other peoples scent on it. If Det Hurst wasn't sure the dogs had Brian's scent in the construction area where there were less people then I'd imagine it would be even harder to differentiate if it was Brian's scent in the bar let alone if the scent was just at the edge of the stage or under it.

Ozoner. you said Brian would have had to be under there for at least 30 minutes. I'd say at least that too but probably longer. Bar closed at 2:30 but I would guess another hour? or so to clean up and close out. This actually helps your opinion as to Brian's scent being stronger, but I'm not sure if length of time is a factor or not. I would say it would be.

 

[XPh]

Where you been I missed you I answered above. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

Though I definitely appreciate the spirited discussion recently, it seems you are demanding "proof" of others more than yourself.

No one really has any PROOF of anything in this case (other than basic facts like Brian was outside the bar at 1:55am), and that's what makes it so perplexing. Nothing about your theory is rooted in proof, either.

With the lack of proof, all we can do is conjecture about what is more or less probable. Your theory still seems highly improbable relative to others based on the string of events that would need to occur together.

 

[embufum]

Though I definitely appreciate the spirited discussion recently, it seems you are demanding "proof" of others more than yourself.

No one really has any PROOF of anything in this case (other than basic facts like Brian was outside the bar at 1:55am), and that's what makes it so perplexing. Nothing about your theory is rooted in proof, either.

With the lack of proof, all we can do is conjecture about what is more or less probable. Your theory still seems highly improbable relative to others based on the string of events that would need to occur together.

Where have a ever "demanded proof" ? You have strongly disagreed in your own words that my theory is highly unlikely. That's your opinion and I honestly respect that. I'm just giving mine. I've have stated many times that my theory could be wrong.

Some of what you Ozoner and others have said has made me think a lot about my theory. Hopefully I have had the same effect on others but if not that's OK. Nothing I say is meant to offend. Nothing you have said has offended me. I welcome anyone to pick apart my theory that's the only way we "might" find some answers. I'm glad you brought this up hopefully this helps us better understand each other. Thanks

One more thing, You quoted my response to Ozoner. She? Lets me have it when it comes to my responses and always has, I like that!! I always look forward to her responses and input.

 

[embufum]

I found 3 Wendys near the Gateway but obviously I can't be sure if they were there or not back in 2006. None of them are that close to the Gateway when it comes to walking distance. IF they are the same I wonder which one it was. Either way this does shed some light on things. That area was known to be a bad area back then. Kind of makes you wonder if Brian had a run in with someone.

Could it be that simple? I mean Brian came out of the construction area or the balcony and started walking and got murdered?

 

[XPh]

Where have a ever "demanded proof" ? You have strongly disagreed in your own words that my theory is highly unlikely. That's your opinion and I honestly respect that. I'm just giving mine. I've have stated many times that my theory could be wrong.

Some of what you Ozoner and others have said has made me think a lot about my theory. Hopefully I have had the same effect on others but if not that's OK. Nothing I say is meant to offend. Nothing you have said has offended me. I welcome anyone to pick apart my theory that's the only way we "might" find some answers. I'm glad you brought this up hopefully this helps us better understand each other. Thanks

One more thing, You quoted my response to Ozoner. She? Lets me have it when it comes to my responses and always has, I like that!! I always look forward to her responses and input.

I'm not the least bit offended and also appreciate the discussion, but since you asked, you demanded proof when:
-you said "Proof ?"
-you said "If someone makes up another way it's up to them to prove it. "

No one has proof. You have talked about other theories as being "made up," but the construction site theory is no more or less made up than your stage-hide-balcony-jump theory.

All we have to go off of us is what is most probable, and the best way to determine that is to consider how many assumptions would need to be true for each scenario to come to fruition.

This case is frustrating because proof is the thing we ALL want, but don't have....

 

[embufum]

I'm not the least bit offended and also appreciate the discussion, but since you asked, you demanded proof when:
-you said "Proof ?"
-you said "If someone makes up another way it's up to them to prove it. "

No one has proof. You have talked about other theories as being "made up," but the construction site theory is no more or less made up than your stage-hide-balcony-jump theory.

All we have to go off of us is what is most probable, and the best way to determine that is to consider how many assumptions would need to be true for each scenario to come to fruition.

This case is frustrating because proof is the thing we ALL want, but don't have....

IF you are going to quote me then at least quote the statement that I responded too.

A. The hideous stench mentioned by patrons at the theater complex next to the bar.

Proof ?

Proof meaning possibly a link to where you read or heard this it's certainly NOT a demand. I can go back many times to Ozoner's response to me that may seem like she's picking apart my theory and has asked for proof. Like I said I welcome that.

I just asked her where she knew that the dogs searched the bar. Is that demanding proof?. What If I said hey can you show me some proof that that dogs searched the bar? I don't think that's a demand it's simply a question to verify.


you said "If someone makes up another way it's up to them to prove it. "

Again quote the whole statement please or else the whole context of what was said can be misunderstood.

Here's an example. For years people have always said that the bar closed at 2 am. I posted on here that the Tuna closed at 2:30. I think it was Ozoner who asked how do you know that the hours were not different back then. Was she demanding proof of what I said? Who knows but good question. So the first thing that I did was call them. I was told that the place closed at 2:30 and that last call was 2:10.

I then called two of my friends who both graduated from Ohio State and have lived there of over 20 years. They both told me the same info that all bars close at 2:30 and always have. I also found a girl who posted who posts on a Pearl Jam site who lives in Columbus who posted one month after Brian disappeared the same exact hours. Now, after all that I have posted to try and verify the hours of the bar if someone disagrees with this then they need to provide proof of why I am wrong.

So yes there are times that "proof" of a certain statement may be required. I was called out on the Tuna's hours so I tried to provide as much proof as I could. I certainly didn't have to and I also didn't take that question as a demand.

Not sure why you are quoting all of my responses to Ozner. She posted a huge list of things that I said in possibly an attempt to disprove some of the things that I wrote. She has done this many times and like I said before that's fine with me.

"You have talked about other theories as being "made up," but the construction site theory is no more or less made up than your stage-hide-balcony-jump theory."

I've never ever said (why is all my text bold?) that the construction theory was made up. In fact I just the other day brought up Det Hurst saying they caught Brian's scent in that area with the dogs. So that pretty much kills my theory even though Hurst mentioned they can't be sure the scent they picked up was Brian's.

I've done research on scent dogs and IMO if they picked up a scent of Brian's and it led to the construction area then it was probably correct. I have said before that I didn't think Brian went into the construction area but with the new pod cast interview we now know a scent was picked up. If we assume that the dogs are 100% correct and we can't then we both are wrong. Brian did not leave over the balcony and he left that building alive.

 

[neesaki]

I found 3 Wendys near the Gateway but obviously I can't be sure if they were there or not back in 2006. None of them are that close to the Gateway when it comes to walking distance. IF they are the same I wonder which one it was. Either way this does shed some light on things. That area was known to be a bad area back then. Kind of makes you wonder if Brian had a run in with someone.

Could it be that simple? I mean Brian came out of the construction area or the balcony and started walking and got murdered?

Could someone clue me in as I obviously missed something... what’s this about the Wendy’s ? :thinking: TIA.

 

[embufum]

Could someone clue me in as I obviously missed something... what’s this about the Wendy’s ? :thinking: TIA.

Sure, Det Hurst said that Brian's scent was tracked coming out a side door? What ever that means and to a Wendy's. He said that there was a camera but it only showed the drive though area.

 

[itsrak]

Could someone clue me in as I obviously missed something... what’s this about the Wendy’s ? :thinking: TIA.

Wendy's was mentioned by the lead detective on the case, who was interviewed recently. The interview, which would likely be of interest to anyone following this case, is available via the following link: http://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-57xfq-8f12c5

 

[Ozoner]

One more thing, You quoted my response to Ozoner. She? Lets me have it when it comes to my responses and always has, I like that!! I always look forward to her responses and input.

Just to set the record straight, I'm a heterosexual cis male, so my pronouns are he/him/his.

 

[dotr]

Years ago working in a video control booth by myself, suddenly i hear a noise above me and to my shock, a man came through a trap door of sorts in the ceiling ( which i and apparently others were unaware existed) and jumped down into the small contained, room.
He gave me a quick glance as if to see if i was going to make a scene or try and stop him,or whatever- none of which i did, recognizing the great potential for danger and off he scampered.
Just saying, if someone can get in, they can probably get out too and not necessarily the way they arrived.
imo, speculation.

 

[embufum]

Just to set the record straight, I'm a heterosexual cis male, so my pronouns are he/him/his.

I think I could have figured out the pronouns lol thanks for the clarification.

 

[Satch]

Wendy's was mentioned by the lead detective on the case, who was interviewed recently. The interview, which would likely be of interest to anyone following this case, is available via the following link: http://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-57xfq-8f12c5

Is that Wendy's still around today? Looking for any photos of the surrounding area?

Satch

 

[Satch]

If you listen to the podcast with Detective Hurst, he said that back in 2006 when Brian went missing there were no cameras inside The Ugly Tuna Saloona. I guess now there are. Had there been cameras back than, we might have been able to trace Brian's movements in the bar.

Satch

 

[embufum]

Years ago working in a video control booth by myself, suddenly i hear a noise above me and to my shock, a man came through a trap door of sorts in the ceiling ( which i and apparently others were unaware existed) and jumped down into the small contained, room.
He gave me a quick glance as if to see if i was going to make a scene or try and stop him,or whatever- none of which i did, recognizing the great potential for danger and off he scampered.
Just saying, if someone can get in, they can probably get out too and not necessarily the way they arrived.
imo, speculation.

So when you said where there is a way in there is a way out but not always the way you came made me think of something. Det Hurst made the comment, "we think Brian somehow got down into the construction area." What if he never did get down into it? Meaning everyone assumes that he got in from the door upstairs at the Tuna.

Det Hurst mentioned that Brian could have squeezed through a plywood door that was chained but had a gap in it. So I would assume this to be true for both doors, the top and the bottom exit door on the far left of the plaza.

BUT, Det Hurst said that they caught Brian's scent in the construction area and then they followed it out a side door? If you look in the alley next to the parking garage there are what seems to be a few side doors along the side of the building. Most of the time doors that lock from the outside usually do not lock from the inside and if they do you can still unlock them to get out.

So if they followed the scent out a side door they are assuming that Brian could have left this way. This means that Brian had another way out and maybe never did leave through the construction area make shift door. That long hall way behind mall stores are usually a way to empty trash and gain access to the back of the stores. Most malls have hallways like this I've used them before when I worked at a mall.

So here is my point finally. What if Brian left over the balcony and no I am not trying to prove my theory it's just this is the only way I can see Brian getting out other than the top door to the construction area. So he turned right after he jumped which is the way that one of the detectives said he might have turned to be undetected if he jumped off the roof. He walked down to the end of the building and for some reason went into the construction area through the plywood doors where they thought he came out. This would explain why he dogs followed his scent to another door he he exited.

Brian went in one way and came out another. This could also explain how no one saw Brian get into the construction area. That place had to be a maze and also could bring you out to different areas and exits once inside. Once inside he could have wandered around not knowing where he was and maybe he followed a light source and found a side door to exit.

After he exited they mentioned following his scent to a Wendy's of near a Wendy's and possibly lost the scent from there. Maybe he was hungry and planned to grab something to eat and got into the some trouble from there.

 

[neesaki]

Or maybe he met up with someone at the Wendy’s, possibly got in a car and left. Either way the trail went cold. I think Clint knows Brian was purposely trying to get away from him that night, which could explain his negative uncaring attitude concerning his disappearance. I have several things going through my mind:

Brian caught a ride and went back to his place, then Clint showed up and something happened there, or

Clint took Meredith home then backtracked and found Brian and there was an altercation. Maybe Clint was really po’d that Brian ran away from / rejected him, or

Brian caught a ride and voluntarily disappeared, or

After Brian left the Tuna he ran into trouble and something happened to him at the hands of someone else.

Yikes.