VERDICT WATCH OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #85

[Pru2U]

To me the why it was in their names isn't as important as the fact it was in their names

GW: I am not like them, I separate myself from them. They do this and they do that and I don't agree with it. My brother is x, I am y.

But actions say otherwise. He knew they burned that house because he removed his items. He can either be okay with that or not. If he was really opposed to that, then WHY would he agree to have a house put in his name where these arsonist are going to live? He could have went off on his own at that point with Tabby and his son. We know from Tabby's testimony she wanted them to leave that house and be on their own. She didn't want to live with his family. Instead, he buys a house with his brother and moves right in to once again live with his mom, brother, niece and his family. If that was because of taxes or insurance or whatever other excuse he thinks up, the fact still remains he knew about the arsons and he still chose to move to the new house with his family AND have the home put in his name. Doesn't seem like separating himself from his family to me.

Then, he when they move to Alaska he does it again. We have a recording of that conversation and mom is telling him about the house and it will be in his name and he doesn't bat an eye or protest one bit. He hasn't even seen the house.

Right.

BCI and the prosecution have provided more than enough witnesses and examples to explain the deep enmeshment of this family. Both George and Jake explained to their significant others why they could not leave their own home. None of them were sophisticated enough to understand it was enmeshment, although all three girls had the natural instinct to resist. HR's family was close, they lived near DR's parents, CR was close to his family. While maybe it wasn't what outsiders would think of as normal for CR & DR to live so close together after divorce, it seemed to work for the kids, and I don't think that is so unusual. There is a mountain of difference between a "close family" and an "enmeshed family".

Enmeshed Family Characteristics | Enmeshment Trauma

Enmeshment is a trait of family dysfunction that involves unhealthy relationship patterns and a lack of independence among family members.

www.brcrecovery.com

 

[rsd1200]

To me the why it was in their names isn't as important as the fact it was in their names

GW: I am not like them, I separate myself from them. They do this and they do that and I don't agree with it. My brother is x, I am y.

But actions say otherwise. He knew they burned that house because he removed his items. He can either be okay with that or not. If he was really opposed to that, then WHY would he agree to have a house put in his name where these arsonist are going to live? He could have went off on his own at that point with Tabby and his son. We know from Tabby's testimony she wanted them to leave that house and be on their own. She didn't want to live with his family. Instead, he buys a house with his brother and moves right in to once again live with his mom, brother, niece and his family. If that was because of taxes or insurance or whatever other excuse he thinks up, the fact still remains he knew about the arsons and he still chose to move to the new house with his family AND have the home put in his name. Doesn't seem like separating himself from his family to me.

Then, he when they move to Alaska he does it again. We have a recording of that conversation and mom is telling him about the house and it will be in his name and he doesn't bat an eye or protest one bit. He hasn't even seen the house.

Would you leave your parents and brother and niece without a home? Just because they were terrible people, doesn't mean he's going to leave them high and dry. I think since AC took the DP specifications off it will be easier on the jury. She knows. They don't have to factor that into their consciences now if they're wrong.

 

[rsd1200]

As far as Dana's i think the defense should leave that alone.

I am wondering if they throw out the murders at Dana's house because of jurisdiction if Adams county can come back and try him for those three in an Adams county court?

JMO

They do that with JW saying G3 was there, that's going to be clustercluck. Two trials for G3?

 

[Nanasteele]

Jmo he wasn’t proved lying because she did produce a transcript. I don’t know that is what he said because only Capena said he said at border.

Why would she put her job on the line and lie? The transcript has to be certified and with the judge and his attorneys listening to it with no objections while she read it tells me he said it. JMO

 

[twall]

As far as Dana's i think the defense should leave that alone.

I am wondering if they throw out the murders at Dana's house because of jurisdiction if Adams county can come back and try him for those three in an Adams county court?

JMO

That issue was settled yesterday. Dana's home is in Scioto County, not Adams County.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another hearing was one over venue. Because Dana Rhoden's home, in which she, Hanna May and Chris Jr. were murdered, is across the Scioto County line, defense attorneys argue charges related to that scene shouldn't apply to this trial, held in Pike County.

Canepa cited section 2901.12 of the Ohio Revised Code, specifically section H, which states that when an offender commits offenses in different jurisdictions, they can be tried for all offenses in any jurisdiction in which the offenses happened.

"We still maintain our earlier position pretrial that that statute is unconstitutional," said Parker.

Deering acknowledged Parker's comment, but ruled in favor of the prosecution that George can be tried for the murders of Dana, Chris Jr. and Hanna May in Pike County, despite the crime scene's location.
That issue was settled yesterday. Dana's home is in Scioto County, not Adams County.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another hearing was one over venue. Because Dana Rhoden's home, in which she, Hanna May and Chris Jr. were murdered, is across the Scioto County line, defense attorneys argue charges related to that scene shouldn't apply to this trial, held in Pike County.

Canepa cited section 2901.12 of the Ohio Revised Code, specifically section H, which states that when an offender commits offenses in different jurisdictions, they can be tried for all offenses in any jurisdiction in which the offenses happened.

"We still maintain our earlier position pretrial that that statute is unconstitutional," said Parker.

Deering acknowledged Parker's comment, but ruled in favor of the prosecution that George can be tried for the murders of Dana, Chris Jr. and Hanna May in Pike County, despite the crime scene's location.

Pike County murder trial: No jury, court holding procedural hearings

After the defense and prosecution verbally rested their cases in front of the jury on Friday, Judge Randy Deering instructed the jury not to come in for court the week of Thanksgiving.

www.wcpo.com

 

[Pru2U]

Right.

BCI and the prosecution have provided more than enough witnesses and examples to explain the deep enmeshment of this family. Both George and Jake explained to their significant others why they could not leave their own home. None of them were sophisticated enough to understand it was enmeshment, although all three girls had the natural instinct to resist. HR's family was close, they lived near DR's parents, CR was close to his family. While maybe it wasn't what outsiders would think of as normal for CR & DR to live so close together after divorce, it seemed to work for the kids, and I don't think that is so unusual. There is a mountain of difference between a "close family" and an "enmeshed family".

Enmeshed Family Characteristics | Enmeshment Trauma

Enmeshment is a trait of family dysfunction that involves unhealthy relationship patterns and a lack of independence among family members.

www.brcrecovery.com

Examples I can think of off the top of my head are:
Angela's insistence on homeschooling
Rarely seeking outside medical attention for the boys
Billy teaching his young boys his illegal crafts
Total disregard of rule of law
Encouraging mistrust of law enforcement
Discouraging (forbidding) George from pursuing a career in forestry
Angela's open discussion of son's intimate relations
Banishing George's wife from bedroom so Angela could rub George's back while they discussed the day's events
Both sons refusing to leave home when their personal relationships were endangered (by Angela)
Angela's blatant manipulation & need for control
Then there's Angela's need to raise the children, for them to call her mom. Both boys were in favor of their mother raising their children, even when the mothers were available and in child's life.

I keep editing to add more, I feel like could go on forever, there are so many examples.

One last edit: To be clear, I do not believe homeschooling alone would be considered enmeshment, no single factor does. It is the collection of characteristics that defines enmeshment.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

To me the why it was in their names isn't as important as the fact it was in their names

GW: I am not like them, I separate myself from them. They do this and they do that and I don't agree with it. My brother is x, I am y.

But actions say otherwise. He knew they burned that house because he removed his items. He can either be okay with that or not. If he was really opposed to that, then WHY would he agree to have a house put in his name where these arsonist are going to live? He could have went off on his own at that point with Tabby and his son. We know from Tabby's testimony she wanted them to leave that house and be on their own. She didn't want to live with his family. Instead, he buys a house with his brother and moves right in to once again live with his mom, brother, niece and his family. If that was because of taxes or insurance or whatever other excuse he thinks up, the fact still remains he knew about the arsons and he still chose to move to the new house with his family AND have the home put in his name. Doesn't seem like separating himself from his family to me.

Then, he when they move to Alaska he does it again. We have a recording of that conversation and mom is telling him about the house and it will be in his name and he doesn't bat an eye or protest one bit. He hasn't even seen the house.

If you will notice the house in his name was not burned. Ever wonder why? Maybe because George told them no way.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

That issue was settled yesterday. Dana's home is in Scioto County, not Adams County.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another hearing was one over venue. Because Dana Rhoden's home, in which she, Hanna May and Chris Jr. were murdered, is across the Scioto County line, defense attorneys argue charges related to that scene shouldn't apply to this trial, held in Pike County.

Canepa cited section 2901.12 of the Ohio Revised Code, specifically section H, which states that when an offender commits offenses in different jurisdictions, they can be tried for all offenses in any jurisdiction in which the offenses happened.

"We still maintain our earlier position pretrial that that statute is unconstitutional," said Parker.

Deering acknowledged Parker's comment, but ruled in favor of the prosecution that George can be tried for the murders of Dana, Chris Jr. and Hanna May in Pike County, despite the crime scene's location.

If he is found not guilty in Pike County can he be tried for those at Dana's in Scioto County? Or does double jeopardy kick in?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

This is what I find very unbelievable. No one made him do anything. Him and Angie did it all alone.

'An Answer from God': Jake Wagner Details Why He Confessed to Pike County Massacre, Faces Cross-Examination at Brother's Trial

Jake Wagner testified that he confessed to planning and carrying out the murders after he felt he'd received "an answer from God."

lawandcrime.com

Wagner further testified that he and his family didn’t discuss the murders after they were carried out. However, he said his father asked him once whether he had any regrets because he was feeling “frustrated with me,” with what he had been made to do. Wagner said he told his father, “I did not” have any regrets.

JMO

 

[Dudly]

What I find interesting is when I went back and watched the two days of George's testimony, many of those who previously said they believed George was guilty changed their minds to not guilty after his testimony, even one who claimed to be related to the R's. Many said they found him very sincere and believable. Some hosts of podcasts also are expressing doubt in his guilt as are some reporters saying they find him believable. I also found him very believable.

I wonder if his testimony had the same effect on members of the jury? If some of the jurors were sitting on the fence, his testimony could have decided them.

It is very possible these murders were planned while he was gone, working or other pursuits, and they never allowed him to know what they were planning. I really don't think, from his testimony, that he was trusted fully by Jake or Angie. There was so much they concealed from him.

I don't think the prosecution proved their case. I think they know it too. Too many holes in it to send a man to jail with LWOP. I think the prosecution should make a deal for obstruction of justice and give him timed served. That way he can't sue the state for keeping him locked up with no evidence. They should stop wasting money and time and proceed on to Billy.

JMO

Apparently Judge Deering doesn’t agree with you. Deering said “reasonable minds could conclude that the defendant is guilty”, to all charges against GWIV.
MOO

 

[Dudly]

This is what I find very unbelievable. No one made him do anything. Him and Angie did it all alone.

'An Answer from God': Jake Wagner Details Why He Confessed to Pike County Massacre, Faces Cross-Examination at Brother's Trial

Jake Wagner testified that he confessed to planning and carrying out the murders after he felt he'd received "an answer from God."

lawandcrime.com

Wagner further testified that he and his family didn’t discuss the murders after they were carried out. However, he said his father asked him once whether he had any regrets because he was feeling “frustrated with me,” with what he had been made to do. Wagner said he told his father, “I did not” have any regrets.

JMO

He was “made to do it” for the ill conceived notion he had to save his daughter from SA…

 

[Pru2U]

Apparently Judge Deering doesn’t agree with you. Deering said “reasonable minds could conclude that the defendant is guilty”, to all charges against GWIV.
MOO

The judge's decisions are based on his knowledge of the law. Once the judge has made a decision, that's it. Done.
Move on.

But I've never heard a defense NOT ask for acquittal. Several times. It's their job.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Examples I can think of off the top of my head are:
Angela's insistence on homeschooling
Rarely seeking outside medical attention for the boys
Billy teaching his young boys his illegal crafts
Total disregard of rule of law
Encouraging mistrust of law enforcement
Discouraging (forbidding) George from pursuing a career in forestry
Angela's open discussion of son's intimate relations
Banishing George's wife from bedroom so Angela could rub George's back while they discussed the day's events
Both sons refusing to leave home when their personal relationships were endangered (by Angela)
Angela's blatant manipulation & need for control
Then there's Angela's need to raise the children, for them to call her mom. Both boys were in favor of their mother raising their children, even when the mothers were available and in child's life.

I keep editing to add more, I feel like could go on forever, there are so many examples.

One last edit: To be clear, I do not believe homeschooling alone would be considered enmeshment, no single factor does. It is the collection of characteristics that defines enmeshment.

George testified that if Josie came to Ohio he had no intentions of living with Jake and Angela. Guess he learned his lesson with Tabbi. Jake on the other hand brought Beth to live with Angie and even knowing Beth was very unhappy there refusing to leave Angie, but instead chose Angie over Beth.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

He was “made to do it” for the ill conceived notion he had to save his daughter from SA…

he said his father asked him once whether he had any regrets because he was feeling “frustrated with me,” with what he had been made to do

That is not how I read that statement. I read it as Jake saying his father made him do it. As usual pushing the blame for his own actions on someone else, but never on angel mommy or him.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Apparently Judge Deering doesn’t agree with you. Deering said “reasonable minds could conclude that the defendant is guilty”, to all charges against GWIV.
MOO

Judge Deering does not have the last word in this. The jurors do.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

BTW Pastor Jake who was so afraid of going to hell did not have any regrets about killing 8 people with angel mommy's help.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/jbakerohio

So far, the judge is denying defense motions related to jury instructions

The defense filed several motions related to jury instructions Monday and more Tuesday arguing the identity of the killer of 3 of the 8 victims 'is in dispute.' Chris Rhoden Sr, his cousin Gary Rhoden and his brother, Kenneth Rhoden

Jake Wagner testified he shot and killed 5 of the 8 victims and shot a sixth, Chris Rhoden Sr. His testimony implicated his father, Billy Wagner, in slayings of Chris Sr., Gary and Kenneth

Defense contends in court records now that 'Jake's method of killing the others is so similar it establishes his 'modus operandi of execution.’

Jake testified he shot all 5 victims he says he killed in the head, including one in her eye, Hannah 'Hazel' Gilley.' Kenneth was shot in the eye too, defense notes. And Gary and Chris Sr. suffered identical head shot wounds, defense argues, citing deputy coroner testimony

#BREAKING: Death penalty is OFF the table for George Wagner IV. Judge Randy Deering just granted state request to drop that possible sentence if George Wagner is convicted of aggravated murder charges in PIke County massacre



No death penalty for George Wagner IV if he’s convicted of Pike County massacre

 

[Pru2U]

Would you leave your parents and brother and niece without a home? Just because they were terrible people, doesn't mean he's going to leave them high and dry. I think since AC took the DP specifications off it will be easier on the jury. She knows. They don't have to factor that into their consciences now if they're wrong.

I could be wrong but I thought the insurance money bought the Peterson Rd house. The title or deed was put in G & J's name but they didn't take out a mortgage on it. Both boys referred to the house as "Angela's".

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Would you leave your parents and brother and niece without a home? Just because they were terrible people, doesn't mean he's going to leave them high and dry. I think since AC took the DP specifications off it will be easier on the jury. She knows. They don't have to factor that into their consciences now if they're wrong.

I don't think that is a good thing for George.

JMo

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/jamespilcher

Lawyers for both sides arguing jury instructions in front of judge in Pike Co. murder trial. Judge Deering is following the state standard when it comes to complicity

Prosecutors officially lift death penalty from George Wagner IV in Pike County murder case

That means they believe Jake Wagner testified truthfully and that jury does not need to be sequestered for deliberations

Going on the record in Pike Co. murder trial after lunch to go over jury instructions. Defense wanted to go on record in court instead of going in chambers. Judge wanted to see drafts and proposals before going on record.

Sounds like they still have 4-5 things they need to iron out and complete.

Prosecutors want to limit how many times "grave suspicion" can be used when it comes to accomplices testimony. Now arguing when "course of conduct" language can be used regarding Dana's house in Adams and not Pike County.

Appears two sides only have 1-2 more things to work out on jury instructions - Judge Deering says "we're close" and then goes back into chambers. Two sides meeting off the record now.