VERDICT WATCH OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #85

[RAISINISBACK]

Beyond a reasonable doubt?

Which receipts put Jake and/or Angela at any of the Rhoden residences that night?
The shoes? Did the evidence prove who was wearing the shoes?
The maglite? Did the evidence prove who made it into a suppressor?
The rest of the items? Did the evidence prove who used them?
What specifically about the ballistic evidence proved who fired the weapons?
What evidence puts Jake and/or Angela at the scene that night?

Again, take away the confessions.

What evidence proves Jake and/or Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

What evidence proves ONLY Jake and/or Angela guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

And finally, what evidence rules out George & Billy? Beyond a reasonable doubt, of course?

jake and Angie, beyond a reasonable doubt. prosecution proved that the first 10 days with all the purchases receipts ballistics ect.

george no.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I agree. I've been doing back to earlier testimony since Jeff Tackett came up with the paying to wear a wire conversations. He actually called a tip in to BCI in April that he thought Billy was responsible. They didn't call him for an interview until September. I wonder if Billy's interview was first and then they went holy crap that man IS suspicious and then they called Tackett or if they finally got to Jeff Tackett's tip and decided to follow it and contact Billy. I recall they had a hard time tracking Billy down so maybe they just finally were able to talk to him and then realize they had a tip that also pointed to him. Either way, I find it interesting that one of Billy's closest friends (it was said they were friends since they were kids so I guess close just means knew him for a while, not likely close like a normal friend we think of lol) immediately thought it's Billy and not oh it must be a cartel hit or drug related.

Tackett also knew that Chris had $40,000 of Billy's money and $20,000 was in the safe. I wonder if the W's took the small safe thinking it was in there and they couldn't get in to the larger safe or remove it easily so they left it. I think there may have been many motives that night. I think they each justified what they were doing for different reasons. I think jealousy was some of it.

It all does still come back to Billy and Angela. Those boys were groomed from the time they were born to commit crimes and not even consider a different life. We've also discussed a lot here about how enmeshed they were. That goes so far beyond just living with your parents or multiple generations living together.

If Tackett called in the tip in April of 16 I wonder if he will get the reward money since both Jake and Angie confessed?

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I'm really not siding with the defense, just calling it like I see it - but again who am I but a potential juror.

Respectfully, what does that mean?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I think your right in reference to what you noted above..... But just the SA angle and the Jake/Hannah break up makes Jake and Angela look guilty. Then add the hacking of FB and recording the child pick ups -- Angela bought the shoes - don't know who wore them but she did buy them. All the text messages between Billy and Angela puts Billy in the conspiracy.

Edited to Add: And remember George doesn't have to prove his innocence. by law, he is to be considered innocent until proven guilty by the state. The state has to proof his guilt. I think people forget that.

Also all the online purchases that were shipped to Jake and Angela. the guns used belonging to Jake.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Yes, same guy. He works with Angenette Levy as well & probably others. He’s good at finding stuff.

It’s been mentioned a few times there will be some special instructions about how to weigh the testimony of confessed felons and also the confessions/testimony in exchange for lighter sentences. I’m looking forward to hearing that myself.

That's pretty standard for confessions used in a criminal trial. Confessions are used every day. It will be difficult to discredit the confessions in this case, though, because the two co-conspirators who confessed didn't get any better deal than what was offered to GW4.

LWOP and a 30 year mandatory sentence are still very harsh punishments.

That said, I'm surprised anyone considers Billy innocent. Not me.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Their testimony plus all the circumstantial evidence will likely be enough for the jury to vote guilty on the murder Conspiracy charge at least.

His signature on the false custody papers could get a guilty on the fraud charge.

But listening to his testimony he indicated he only signed it, but did not date it. I would like to see all three custody documents to compare the handwriting on dates but cannot find pictures of them. To me if George dated it the prosecution would have brought that up, but AC only brought up he signed them. She said he committed forgery and he said how can I forge my own name? Dates were not mentioned. But i would need to see them for myself to say one way or another.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I agree. I've been doing back to earlier testimony since Jeff Tackett came up with the paying to wear a wire conversations. He actually called a tip in to BCI in April that he thought Billy was responsible. They didn't call him for an interview until September. I wonder if Billy's interview was first and then they went holy crap that man IS suspicious and then they called Tackett or if they finally got to Jeff Tackett's tip and decided to follow it and contact Billy. I recall they had a hard time tracking Billy down so maybe they just finally were able to talk to him and then realize they had a tip that also pointed to him. Either way, I find it interesting that one of Billy's closest friends (it was said they were friends since they were kids so I guess close just means knew him for a while, not likely close like a normal friend we think of lol) immediately thought it's Billy and not oh it must be a cartel hit or drug related.

Tackett also knew that Chris had $40,000 of Billy's money and $20,000 was in the safe. I wonder if the W's took the small safe thinking it was in there and they couldn't get in to the larger safe or remove it easily so they left it. I think there may have been many motives that night. I think they each justified what they were doing for different reasons. I think jealousy was some of it.

It all does still come back to Billy and Angela. Those boys were groomed from the time they were born to commit crimes and not even consider a different life. We've also discussed a lot here about how enmeshed they were. That goes so far beyond just living with your parents or multiple generations living together.

Billy and Angela Wagner also learned their skills and love of criminal activities from parents. Amazing how it has persisted through so many generations of that family.

When it comes to Billy's allegations about Chris Sr. having Billy's money, I consider the source. Billy is a professional liar and thief. Chris Sr isn't around to explain the facts because Billy killed him in cold blood. The story is more likely that Billy ripped of Chris Sr. for that amount. If Chris Sr. was in the habit of ripping off his customers, he wouldn't have lasted very long in business. That said, yes, Billy's usual entitlement probably made him think he deserved whatever money he stole and wanted to get it back.


The Wagners and Newcombs raised criminals in Billy and Angela and they in turn raised GW4 and Jake to be criminals. As an adult, though, you're responsible for your own choices. All the Rhoden family killers are responsible for their own decisions and have to pay the price. JMO

 

[pcrum12]

Respectfully, what does that mean?

Just that I don't know anymore than anyone else and just calling it like I see it that from what I heard during trial I have reasonable doubt so I would have to vote NG.

 

[pcrum12]

That's pretty standard for confessions used in a criminal trial. Confessions are used every day. It will be difficult to discredit the confessions in this case, though, because the two co-conspirators who confessed didn't get any better deal than what was offered to GW4.

LWOP and a 30 year mandatory sentence are still very harsh punishments.

That said, I'm surprised anyone considers Billy innocent. Not me.

to me, easier to prove Billy than George. IMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Every US Citizen is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of his/her peers. This is something we all learned in civics class and if not civics class, then it’s been often repeated on television since Dragnet & Perry Mason. Just like Miranda Rights. I cannot imagine anyone posting on Webslueths doesn’t know or has forgotten it.

That being said, it would be quite the challenge for the prosecution to overcome a solid alibi for GW, would it not?

The point of my previous exercise is to demonstrate for anyone disregarding JW’s and AW’s confessions and testimony needs to disregard them completely, not just as they pertain to George. Without their testimony, the collective evidence points the finger at every single resident of that Peterson Rd. house, from the texts & e-mails, to the receipts, from the shell casings to the homemade suppressor found in the cistern to the gun “wish list”, from the footprints to the wiretaps; and witness after witness testimony about how deeply enmeshed the family was and had always been. COLLECTIVELY, all that evidence encompasses at minimum, Angela, George and Jake but does not conclusively point to one individual. WITH their testimony, it indicts all 4 of them.

So I’m glad people discount their testimony because without it, the COLLECTIVE evidence still points to Jake, Angela AND George.

Did george purchase anything used in the murders? I think we can discount the bug detector bought in 2015 because as far as i know none of the victims were killed with a bug detector and no bug detector would be needed before the crimes were committed.


The prosecution made a glaring mistake bringing in one receipt from O'Rielly's auto parts and it stated right on the receipt the parts were for a Chevy Silverado that was George's personal vehicle. The parts bought was an inline fuel filter and rubber gaskets, none of which a silencer can be made out of.

The murder weapon was bought by Jake at a gun show. Prosecution had a receipt and report from ATF for the purchase. The guns George bought at the gun show were NOT used in the murders. No proof george even knew jake was there that day. they could have traveled in separate vehicles at separate times of the day. I am sure George was not following Jake around to see where he went.

Billy purchased the truck that george loaned him the money to buy. No evidence that George even knew why Billy wanted to buy it other than uncle Toddy needed the money. Billy and Chris Sr took the truck from Peterson RD the morning after it was bought. I believe that Billy took it to FWF but have no proof of that.

No receipt for hay or materials to build false bottom. IMO this was a complete lie from start to finish and no false bottom was ever built. The design jake gave would not support the weight of 480 lbs of hay on OSB board. The OSB board would have bowed down to the extent that someone Georges size could not have squeezed under it. Jake would have been taking a great risk by squeezing under there and that is not the Jake we know. At any rate AC made a huge mistake building that example a week after Jake's testimony to Jakes design. Pike County is rural like here where I live and everyone knows a thing or two about hay and OSB boards.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Their testimony plus all the circumstantial evidence will likely be enough for the jury to vote guilty on the murder Conspiracy charge at least.

His signature on the false custody papers could get a guilty on the fraud charge.

Why a fraud charge CC? he signed his own name and those documents were never filed in a court.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Every US Citizen is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of his/her peers. This is something we all learned in civics class and if not civics class, then it’s been often repeated on television since Dragnet & Perry Mason. Just like Miranda Rights. I cannot imagine anyone posting on Webslueths doesn’t know or has forgotten it.

That being said, it would be quite the challenge for the prosecution to overcome a solid alibi for GW, would it not?

The point of my previous exercise is to demonstrate for anyone disregarding JW’s and AW’s confessions and testimony needs to disregard them completely, not just as they pertain to George. Without their testimony, the collective evidence points the finger at every single resident of that Peterson Rd. house, from the texts & e-mails, to the receipts, from the shell casings to the homemade suppressor found in the cistern to the gun “wish list”, from the footprints to the wiretaps; and witness after witness testimony about how deeply enmeshed the family was and had always been. COLLECTIVELY, all that evidence encompasses at minimum, Angela, George and Jake but does not conclusively point to one individual. WITH their testimony, it indicts all 4 of them.

So I’m glad people discount their testimony because without it, the COLLECTIVE evidence still points to Jake, Angela AND George.

Disregarding all testimony, Jake bought the murder weapon. prosecution produced receipt and ATF verification of the purchase.
jake and Angie bought all the supplies and had them shipped to them under their own names.

Angie bought shoes that left a bloody footprint at the scene. No proof who wore them but she was caught on camera buying them.

JMO

 

[pcrum12]

Why a fraud charge CC? he signed his own name and those documents were never filed in a court.

JMO

And Angela Notarized with her mom's stamp, correct? Or did Rita actually notarize it. Can't remember. Edited to Add: And really how can George or Jake be charged with that if they didn't notarize it and it wasn't filed? Really it's just a piece of paper used as evidence against Jake and George. The only person(s) that committed a crime would be Angela or Rita depending on which one actually notarized it. IMO IANAL.

 

[Cool Cats]

But listening to his testimony he indicated he only signed it, but did not date it. I would like to see all three custody documents to compare the handwriting on dates but cannot find pictures of them. To me if George dated it the prosecution would have brought that up, but AC only brought up he signed them. She said he committed forgery and he said how can I forge my own name? Dates were not mentioned. But i would need to see them for myself to say one way or another.

JMO

I don't understand how it's fraud if not used officially. Like you go to Court and show forged documents because you are trying to get custody. I don't see how it's fraud when the documents were just sitting around in a box in storage but not actually being used.

You can defend yourself and say you never used them, had decided not to use them, and had planned to throw them away, etc...

 

[RAISINISBACK]

and Angela Notarized with her mom's stamp, correct? Or did Rita actually notarize it. Can't remember.

I don't know but i do know George did not notarize them.

JMO

 

[pcrum12]

I don't know but i do know George did not notarize them.

JMO

Ive edited to add on my post if you want to review.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Yes they did. My point is, either you believe their testimony or you don’t. If you do NOT believe their testimony, that’s cool. The COLLECTIVE evidence still points to Angela, Jake and George.

With respect what evidence points to George only?

Angie hacked the FB accounts.
Angie and jake bought supplies.
jake bought the murder weapon.
Billy bought the truck.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Ive edited to add on my post if you want to review.

Which post #?

 

[pcrum12]

Which post #?

#678

 

[dgfred]

Poor GW... reminds of those three monkeys. What is it- Hear, speak and see no Evil. Guy suddenly ditched the family crime business this one time I guess. Not exactly SOP for him tho... and didn't sound like he had on tape either.