GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #66

[Antimony]

George did not shoot anybody.
Jake shot and killed five people and shot a sixth. That leaves
CRSR, Gary and Kenny? Evidence suggests Gary would have been killed even with the first shot and all came from the same weapon. Kenny? One shot, no question.
That leaves CRSR, His heavily redacted autopsy report, and THE KNIFE.
Just my opinion.

 

[Betty P]

George did not shoot anybody.
Jake shot and killed five people and shot a sixth. That leaves
CRSR, Gary and Kenny? Evidence suggests Gary would have been killed even with the first shot and all came from the same weapon. Kenny? One shot, no question.
That leaves CRSR. His heavily redacted autopsy report and THE KNIFE.
Just my opinion.

I disagree. George was one of the shooters. All the weapons were used at the crime scenes to assault and/or kill the victims. <modsnip: No MSM to support>

As the old saying goes, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Just because George's DNA wasn't found doesn't mean he wasn't one of the killers. We know already from statements by investigators and AG DeWine that the killers went to great lengths to cover up their crimes.

The fairy tale created by George 4's attorneys claiming he didn't shoot anyone is pure fantasy created by his defense attorneys. They're also arguing that ballistics evidence isn't valid (LOL), indicating there's evidence that George's gun was used to kill the victims. Ballistics evidence has been used in U.S. trials at least since 1925.

https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1631&context=student_scholarship

The National Institutes of Standards and Technology (NIST) has a very informative web site showing the scientific validity of ballistics analysis. It's very interesting.

Ballistics

Ballistics analysis includes the study of ballistics to not only determine which guns shot which victims, but helps experts reconstruct where killers stood in relation to their victims.

Very interesting analysis of the St. Valentine's Day Massacre of 1929 using very old bullets.

How Good a Match is It? Putting Statistics into Forensic Firearms Identification

Ohio BCI used sophisticated technology with FARO scanners, which helped them determine how many shooters were at each crime scene and where they walked and stood in relation to the victims.

JMO

 

[Berrybell]

Jake wasn't allowed to say anything specific pertaining to the actions of the other defendants during his own hearing. That doesn't mean they're not guilty as charged.

He can't discuss those specific details until he testifies during their trials. In the meantime the defense attorneys are free to make up any factoids they can to help their client.

BBM
We do need to remember the defense has seen the plea agreements. I am not saying he is innocent or shouldn't be punished! I am saying GW4 attorney's may be basing their defense off of AW & JW narratives.

 

[Antimony]

I did not mean to imply George did not shoot someone, His lawyers did that. I wanted to point out a possible role that George might have played if Jake and George's Lawyers were telling the truth.

 

[Betty P]

I did not mean to imply George did not shoot someone, His lawyers did that. I wanted to point out a possible role that George might have played if Jake and George's Lawyers were telling the truth.

I agree in part, that George may have used another weapon. OTOH, I've not seen any source stating that Jake's attorney claimed George didn't shoot a weapon. I realize there have been some rumors floating around, but so far it appears to be just that - rumor.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I did not realize that families have to ok plea deals. I thought they had to be informed , possibly discussed with them and could provide input but I did not realize victims or the families had to approve the plea deal in most states. I know Ohio has Marsy's law but I did not know it directed that families had to agree or approve a plea deal. It is better if the prosecution has their blessing because that would be a hard place to be in. Glad you brought that up, I am interested in how that works.

I'm not at all sure that the victims' families must okay a plea deal. Does anyone know? I just can't imagine that the families were unanimously in favor of AW's deal.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Do you think AW's giving information about her family's other crimes (per AC's statement at AW's plea change hearing) will have any effect on BW's attitude or deciding to change his plea? IMO, AC's specifically stating that AW gave this information was an outright warning to Billy and/or GW4 to give up and change their plea to guilty, or else.

IMO, a normal person would heed that warning, but--of course--the W's aren't normal people. I hope AC really comes down hard on BW and/or GW4 for every single crime that AW gave info on, especially BW if he has murdered anyone else. BW's other acts evidence states: Allegations that defendant has killed/plotted/threatened to kill others before.

I have my doubts that either GW4 or JW have committed murder in the past. But as for BW, I wouldn't want to bet any money he hasn't killed before based on this other acts evidence statement.

JMO

If AW gave information on any other murder(s) allegedly committed by BW, his goose is already cooked. So, why not go to trial here, unless they can roll them up into one plea deal? I have no doubt, if another murder qualifies, the state will seek the DP. So, unless they can put them together in a LWOP plea, there's no incentive for him to get this over and done with, just to face another DP trial.

Jake's plea deal, rather than speeding up the process, kind of gummed up the works by taking the DP off the table for all 4.

 

[joe jones]

I'm not at all sure that the victims' families must okay a plea deal. Does anyone know? I just can't imagine that the families were unanimously in favor of AW's deal.

they are often consulted about plea deals but they have no legal standing, it is courtesy to families to make sure that the families know what the state is proposing, I think the state has said in this case the family were in agreement, (I think that was mentioned in one of the hearings) as both plea deals so far ensure AW will most probably die in jail and JW will definitely, and it saves them the having to sit through at least two trials, plus some of the family members are in poor health and may not be able to endure long trials with all the horror that will be testified too

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Ohhhh duh on me, what was I thinking, I'm an east coaster.

Apparently Wagner time and the rest of Ohio differ, since the entire state adheres to EST, 10-15 minute "bar time" not withstanding. Wonder what keeps these Wags?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

BBM
We do need to remember the defense has seen the plea agreements. I am not saying he is innocent or shouldn't be punished! I am saying GW4 attorney's may be basing their defense off of AW & JW narratives.

Or, more likely, they're basing their narratives on what their respective clients have told them.

 

[joe jones]

If AW gave information on any other murder(s) allegedly committed by BW, his goose is already cooked. So, why not go to trial here, unless they can roll them up into one plea deal? I have no doubt, if another murder qualifies, the state will seek the DP. So, unless they can put them together in a LWOP plea, there's no incentive for him to get this over and done with, just to face another DP trial.

Jake's plea deal, rather than speeding up the process, kind of gummed up the works by taking the DP off the table for all 4.

I agree JW plea makes legal problems for the state but they had nothing else to offer him, he admits to 5 murders so they couldn't go any lower than LWOP so had only the DP removal to give him, and he asked and got DP off for the others,

it then meant that states bargaining position was altered for other 3 as they now knew their was no DP so they started from a position of LWOP, what could the state offer GW the elder who it seems killed the other 3 victims, I doubt they wish to move from LWOP for him, (plus any other charges) so he can plead guilty for LWOP or go to trial, me in his shoes would roll the dice (very slim odds I agree but I doubt he will plead guilty) , GW the younger may try to plea down from LWOP to the possibility of parole after a high number of years such as 40 to 50, his argument could be only difference between him and AW was being present at crime scene, we have yet to find out what his actual role was during crimes, depends how hard the state wants to go after him,

 

[joe jones]

I did not mean to imply George did not shoot someone, His lawyers did that. I wanted to point out a possible role that George might have played if Jake and George's Lawyers were telling the truth.

I think GW the younger did not shoot anyone, the defence attys IMO would not have stated he didn't if their was any doubt, and to file motions on that assertion (now they have the plea agreements) would surely be unethical

 

[Dudly]

I agree JW plea makes legal problems for the state but they had nothing else to offer him, he admits to 5 murders so they couldn't go any lower than LWOP so had only the DP removal to give him, and he asked and got DP off for the others,

it then meant that states bargaining position was altered for other 3 as they now knew their was no DP so they started from a position of LWOP, what could the state offer GW the elder who it seems killed the other 3 victims, I doubt they wish to move from LWOP for him, (plus any other charges) so he can plead guilty for LWOP or go to trial, me in his shoes would roll the dice (very slim odds I agree but I doubt he will plead guilty) , GW the younger may try to plea down from LWOP to the possibility of parole after a high number of years such as 40 to 50, his argument could be only difference between him and AW was being present at crime scene, we have yet to find out what his actual role was during crimes, depends how hard the state wants to go after him,

My opinion is GWIII or GWIV going to trial will result in the same outcome as pleading guilty. The only way it could be different is if they were to get a rouge juror…

 

[joe jones]

My opinion is GWIII or GWIV going to trial will result in the same outcome as pleading guilty. The only way it could be different is if they were to get a rouge juror…

I have seen one of those myself Orange Taylor trial, this juror would not have convicted him under any circumstance, had a retrial and that jury convicted him,

I think they have a strong case against all 4, but then I thought they had a very strong case against Robert Blake and OJ

 

[Covert Operative]

I'm not at all sure that the victims' families must okay a plea deal. Does anyone know? I just can't imagine that the families were unanimously in favor of AW's deal.

I believe that in any case the prosecution probably tries to get the family on board, but I also believe there are times that they have to make or make a decision to agree to a plea even if the family is not competely on board. I do not think legally it is required that family has to agree with a plea deal.

 

[Covert Operative]

If AW gave information on any other murder(s) allegedly committed by BW, his goose is already cooked. So, why not go to trial here, unless they can roll them up into one plea deal? I have no doubt, if another murder qualifies, the state will seek the DP. So, unless they can put them together in a LWOP plea, there's no incentive for him to get this over and done with, just to face another DP trial.

Jake's plea deal, rather than speeding up the process, kind of gummed up the works by taking the DP off the table for all 4.

I feel she probably gave info on arson, theft, fraud etc. but not sure she did on murder. Unless she actually told them where or what the evidence was on another murder they would still have to prove it.

 

[Covert Operative]

Or, more likely, they're basing their narratives on what their respective clients have told them.

The defense now has the proffers so I believe they will base their defense on those since the state will be also relying on those to a large degree. I think the state filed their motion to strike the defense motion because the information in the defense motion came from the proffers and they do not want or think that information should be out there. They want it off the record.
I do not believe he is considered the principal offender but is legally under Ohio law considered just as guilty under the complicity theory.

 

[evelezrn]

ALL CONJECTURE AND MOO.
The wording about the sixth victim" was odd to me.

Maybe "the sixth victim" was something G4 told his attorney that JW shot someone else who was completely separate incident. Something that could have happened before or after the ones involved in this case.
TO CLARIFY: In the above situation I have no idea who that 6th victim may have been. Just wonder if G4 could be "telling on his brother" for an additional crime.

 

[Covert Operative]

I think GW the younger did not shoot anyone, the defence attys IMO would not have stated he didn't if their was any doubt, and to file motions on that assertion (now they have the plea agreements) would surely be unethical

I totally agree with you, he probaby did not kill anyone. I believe he was there with the intent to kill but something happened and he did not. I have some thoughts as to what that was.
I believe the state wants that motion to be stricken from the record because that information came from the proffers and they do not want it out there. The defense never said it came from the proffers or attached the proffer to their motion but they said it came from discovery.

 

[Covert Operative]

ALL CONJECTURE AND MOO.
The wording about the sixth victim" was odd to me.

Maybe "the sixth victim" was something G4 told his attorney that JW shot someone else who was completely separate incident. Something that could have happened before or after the ones involved in this case.
TO CLARIFY: In the above situation I have no idea who that 6th victim may have been. Just wonder if G4 could be "telling on his brother" for an additional crime.

I believe that JW probably said in his proffer that G4 did not shoot or kill anyone and explained what happened and how
JW (himself) came to actually shoot a 6th victim. I believe G4 intent was there to shoot when he went to the victims homes.