GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #66

[Covert Operative]

ALL CONJECTURE AND MOO.
The wording about the sixth victim" was odd to me.

Maybe "the sixth victim" was something G4 told his attorney that JW shot someone else who was completely separate incident. Something that could have happened before or after the ones involved in this case.
TO CLARIFY: In the above situation I have no idea who that 6th victim may have been. Just wonder if G4 could be "telling on his brother" for an additional crime.

I believe that JW probably said in his proffer that G4 did not shoot or kill anyone and explained what happened and how
JW (himself)

I agree JW plea makes legal problems for the state but they had nothing else to offer him, he admits to 5 murders so they couldn't go any lower than LWOP so had only the DP removal to give him, and he asked and got DP off for the others,

it then meant that states bargaining position was altered for other 3 as they now knew their was no DP so they started from a position of LWOP, what could the state offer GW the elder who it seems killed the other 3 victims, I doubt they wish to move from LWOP for him, (plus any other charges) so he can plead guilty for LWOP or go to trial, me in his shoes would roll the dice (very slim odds I agree but I doubt he will plead guilty) , GW the younger may try to plea down from LWOP to the possibility of parole after a high number of years such as 40 to 50, his argument could be only difference between him and AW was being present at crime scene, we have yet to find out what his actual role was during crimes, depends how hard the state wants to go after him,

I am very interested in why G4 defense is going to file to have a Daubert hearing on the shoe evidence or at least that is what they said in his last thearing. I think the Daubert will be granted but I do not think the evidence will be disallowed. I would think that JW probably would have said in his proffer if G4 had those shoes on that night. There was a 10.5 and 11 size left shoe print near the living room/ entry way in CRsr home and a size 11 at DR. We do not know who actually wore them but we know who it seems wore them. It could help them if it was disallowed but not if JW said G4 had them on, I do not see it being much help. I think that legally they have to try and get it disallowed.

It was also said in his last hearing the state may not pursue some of the other acts. I assume they meant only the ones that pertain to G4, so am interested to see which ones they do not pursue. It seems if he is going to trial all of the other acts that would pertain to him would be something they would want to pursue.

 

[Piffcat]

'That stigma can be broken': Ohio veteran touts medical marijuana as bill aims to expand program

This is what crsr and family could be doing

 

[Betty P]

I believe that JW probably said in his proffer that G4 did not shoot or kill anyone and explained what happened and how
JW (himself) came to actually shoot a 6th victim. I believe G4 intent was there to shoot when he went to the victims homes.

But that's your opinion only, correct? It's not based on any factual information.

 

[Betty P]

'That stigma can be broken': Ohio veteran touts medical marijuana as bill aims to expand program

This is what crsr and family could be doing

Yes, they were skilled farmers who could have ended up running a successful business once legalization passed. Quite different from their killers who, at best, had some skills in animal husbandry and extreme salesmanship.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

I believe that JW probably said in his proffer that G4 did not shoot or kill anyone and explained what happened and how
JW (himself)


I am very interested in why G4 defense is going to file to have a Daubert hearing on the shoe evidence or at least that is what they said in his last thearing. I think the Daubert will be granted but I do not think the evidence will be disallowed. I would think that JW probably would have said in his proffer if G4 had those shoes on that night. There was a 10.5 and 11 size left shoe print near the living room/ entry way in CRsr home and a size 11 at DR. We do not know who actually wore them but we know who it seems wore them. It could help them if it was disallowed but not if JW said G4 had them on, I do not see it being much help. I think that legally they have to try and get it disallowed.

It was also said in his last hearing the state may not pursue some of the other acts. I assume they meant only the ones that pertain to G4, so am interested to see which ones they do not pursue. It seems if he is going to trial all of the other acts that would pertain to him would be something they would want to pursue.

George 4's defense uses these tactics to attempt to influence pre-trial public opinion in the news and social media. It's been part of their strategy from the beginning. They probably also think these motions that are likely to be denied, give them reasons to keep appealing George 4's sentence once he's convicted.

Who knows? Maybe George 4's defense team plans to argue in the alternative, stating that George didn't own any shoes at the time and was barefoot that night.
And in church, praying and reading the bible.

Some might think his defense team has a reason to keep his motions, appeals, etc. going well into the future.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Link to article about Agent Scheiderer testifying in George 4's hearing about shoeprint evidence

Pike County Massacre: BCI agent testifies about evidence against eldest Wagner son

During Monday’s court hearing, Ryan Scheiderer, a special agent with the Ohio Bureau of Investigation (BCI) was the first person to publicly testify in open court against George.

Scheiderer said his team has ballistic evidence, shoe prints, forged documents, recorded conversations and text messages on George.

Shoe prints were found in the blood on the floor of the crime scene, according to the agent.​

He also described ballistic evidence that includes shell casings found throughout the house from .40 caliber, .30 caliber and .22 caliber guns that shot the victims.

Why else would George 4's attorneys be filing motions for a hearing to throw out shoeprint evidence?

<modsnip>

Pike County Massacre: BCI agent testifies about evidence against eldest Wagner son

Maybe I should add it to the Rhoden Massacre Timeline, too.

BBM

ETA: My signature block has been updated <modsnip> It now includes relevant and frequently requested links to facts about the Rhoden Massacre evidence.

 

[Betty P]

What do you think about this statement, bolded:

Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

This statement making it sound like Jake shot Chris Sr but it wasn't a shot that killed him. Makes no sense.

Where did that statement originate?

 

[joe jones]

maybe the shoe issue is to argue that it is not scientifically valid evidence according to some studies so should be thrown out due to that, what benefit losing shoe print is to GW the younger I don't know, as it appears both AW and JW are willing to testify to what he did in open court, plus the other evidence they have, guess we will find out what the defence is doing as the cases either get plea agreements or both GW go to trial

 

[Covert Operative]

maybe the shoe issue is to argue that it is not scientifically valid evidence according to some studies so should be thrown out due to that, what benefit losing shoe print is to GW the younger I don't know, as it appears both AW and JW are willing to testify to what he did in open court, plus the other evidence they have, guess we will find out what the defence is doing as the cases either get plea agreements or both GW go to trial

I enjoy your post. You understand the case details and the motions that are filed. Yes I believe that is what the argument will be but I do not think it will be disallowed and I would think that JW may or may not have said in his proffer if G4 had on those shoes. It was not said in bond hearing who had on those shoes but was assumed.

 

[Cool Cats]

Where did that statement originate?

Page 2 first paragraph.
MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT

Recently provided Discovery makes it clear that GWW IV did NOT shoot and kill any of the victims. Yet the State insists on proceeding with this case a capital case unless and until Jake Wagner testifies for the State to its satisfaction.

Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

The Bill of Particulars filed July 18, 2019, states with respect to the Aggravated Murder counts (1-8) that GWW IV shot each victim named personally. See paragraph 2 of counts 1-8, Bill of Particulars.

It is now clear that such a claim is factually false and untrue. GWW IV shot nobody. The State knows the Bill of Particulars is false and that George Wagner shot nobody.

 

[Covert Operative]

George did not shoot anybody.
Jake shot and killed five people and shot a sixth. That leaves
CRSR, Gary and Kenny? Evidence suggests Gary would have been killed even with the first shot and all came from the same weapon. Kenny? One shot, no question.
That leaves CRSR, His heavily redacted autopsy report, and THE KNIFE.
Just my opinion.

What gun/caliber do you think KR was killed with , if you have an opinion on that.

 

[Betty P]

maybe the shoe issue is to argue that it is not scientifically valid evidence according to some studies so should be thrown out due to that, what benefit losing shoe print is to GW the younger I don't know, as it appears both AW and JW are willing to testify to what he did in open court, plus the other evidence they have, guess we will find out what the defence is doing as the cases either get plea agreements or both GW go to trial

The defense team will need a lot of luck arguing against the admissibility of shoe print evidence. That type of evidence has been admissible in criminal trials for many decades.

Footwear, The Missed Evidence

 

[Betty P]

Page 2 first paragraph.
MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT

Recently provided Discovery makes it clear that GWW IV did NOT shoot and kill any of the victims. Yet the State insists on proceeding with this case a capital case unless and until Jake Wagner testifies for the State to its satisfaction.

Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

The Bill of Particulars filed July 18, 2019, states with respect to the Aggravated Murder counts (1-8) that GWW IV shot each victim named personally. See paragraph 2 of counts 1-8, Bill of Particulars.

It is now clear that such a claim is factually false and untrue. GWW IV shot nobody. The State knows the Bill of Particulars is false and that George Wagner shot nobody.

That's simply a motion filed by the defense. It's not yet established as factual.

 

[Betty P]

maybe the shoe issue is to argue that it is not scientifically valid evidence according to some studies so should be thrown out due to that, what benefit losing shoe print is to GW the younger I don't know, as it appears both AW and JW are willing to testify to what he did in open court, plus the other evidence they have, guess we will find out what the defence is doing as the cases either get plea agreements or both GW go to trial

The problem with that argument is that no one is citing any studies showing shoe print evidence is not scientifically valid.

Do you have a link to any studies showing shoe print evidence is not valid? There are many cases in which it was ruled admissible.

https://www.officer.com/home/article/10248671/shoe-print-evidence

Like most all forensic evidence shoe prints can not directly prove that a suspect committed a crime. They can only provide a link to show that the suspect was present and or in contact with the victim or scene

BCI engaged expert analysis showing the type of shoe, where it was purchased and the extent of wear on the shoe sole. Video of local Walmart stores showed Angela Wagner at that Walmart store purchasing the shoes. There is a receipt.

Just filed court documents reveal details about evidence in Rhoden case

It seems highly likely AW admitted to purchasing the shoes and that she saw GW4 and Jake wearing them that night as part of her plea agreement. She will be asked to testify about that during the trial.

More details of evidence revealed in George Wagner IV motion hearing

Also relevant from the link above:

During his testimony, Scheiderer also said that a witness told investigators that they were present at some point when the four defendants were “basically organizing a retaliation plan should they get arrested and charged.” Scheiderer said this plan specifically targeted himself, then Ohio Attorney General (now Governor) Mike DeWine, and then-Sheriff Charles Reader.

Jake and Angela Wagner will both now testify that GW4 was helping plan the murder of investigating agents, and Gov. Mike DeWine.

For the Wagner family to assign GW4 to murder the above prosecution team, one would assume they trusted him to carry it out.

 

[Cool Cats]

That's simply a motion filed by the defense. It's not yet established as factual.

But there is a reason the defense is interpreting the Discovery Evidence this way.

George did not shoot any of the 8 victims, Jake shot 6 victims.

 

[joe jones]

The defense team will need a lot of luck arguing against the admissibility of shoe print evidence. That type of evidence has been admissible in criminal trials for many decades.

Footwear, The Missed Evidence

their is also a body of work saying it lacks scientific vigour, and their have never been any proper studies or scientific testing of the validity, but I think the court will let it in, it will be interesting to see a Daubert hearing on it and to at least allow it to be challenged,
The questionable science of tire track and shoe print analysis | In the Dark | APM Reports
If the Shoe Fits: CSAFE Study Improves Shoe Print Forensics (cmu.edu)

last report is an attempt to make it more scientific

 

[Betty P]

I never said it was factual but there is a reason the defense is interpreting the Discovery Evidence this way.

Conveniently for the defense attorneys, it will be many months before we learn what their reason is for "interpreting" the discovery evidence in that particular way. That's part of the game they play - trying their case in the news and social media in hopes of gaining enough support to sway a jury in George 4's direction. George 4's trial date is set for April 4, 2022, plenty of time to try to manipulate public opinion. JMO

Hearing scheduled for George Wagner IV in Rhode family murders | 10tv.com

OTOH, the prosecution has mountains of evidence and detailed confessions and trial testimony from George 4's co-defendants. All the rhetorical tap dancing from the defense won't help.

They're also taking a big gamble by demanding a Dec. 22, 2021 hearing to get the aggravated murder charges against George 4 dropped. That hearing will likely create more problems for George 4 than he and his attorneys anticipated.

Jurors usually don't vote in favor of turning mass murderers loose in their communities to victimize innocent people again and again.

JMO

 

[Antimony]

What gun/caliber do you think KR was killed with , if you have an opinion on that.

No idea.

 

[Betty P]

their is also a body of work saying it lacks scientific vigour, and their have never been any proper studies or scientific testing of the validity, but I think the court will let it in, it will be interesting to see a Daubert hearing on it and to at least allow it to be challenged,
The questionable science of tire track and shoe print analysis | In the Dark | APM Reports
If the Shoe Fits: CSAFE Study Improves Shoe Print Forensics (cmu.edu)

last report is an attempt to make it more scientific

I can't begin to say how much I look forward to George 4's attorneys trying to make these arguments in court, particularly when his brother and mother are both on the witness stand, under oath, telling the court what actually happened and why George4's shoe prints were there that night.

The more I consider it, the more I look forward to it. He may end up facing the DP after all.

JMO

 

[Covert Operative]

their is also a body of work saying it lacks scientific vigour, and their have never been any proper studies or scientific testing of the validity, but I think the court will let it in, it will be interesting to see a Daubert hearing on it and to at least allow it to be challenged,
The questionable science of tire track and shoe print analysis | In the Dark | APM Reports
If the Shoe Fits: CSAFE Study Improves Shoe Print Forensics (cmu.edu)

last report is an attempt to make it more scientific

BW's Daubert hearing motion on shoes and ballistics had been approved months back, not sure they will still have one but it was approved to be heard. Based on this I feel G4 will get a Daubert approved also. I agree the evidence will not be disallowed which is what you said, I understood that is what you meant. Your post was not confusing to me, they are always clear and concise.

BW-- After hearing arguments of counsel, the Court granted Defendant's Motion No. 42 and Defendant's Motion No. 43 and ordered that a Daubert hearing would be held concerning the admissibility of ballistics evidence and opinions and concerning the admissibility of shoeprint evidence and opinions.
Case Details - CourtView Justice Solutions (pikecountycpcourt.org)

It will be very interesting to see a Daubert hearing if there is one.