OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #29

[mamamumbles]

The pictures are great! It's good to see the kiddos albeit thru shopping carts. And the Kawasaki is cool. Daily Mail always has the best pics! LM looks a lot younger in that picture with the great grandkids.

Agree about the Mexican Cartel. Then again I don't know much either except the kids look like they could identify someone if they saw them that night if they knew them. Bless their little hearts!

I agree it's good to see the kids look okay. Funny caption under the LM and Dana pic. Im almost certain that is Dana with her 3 kids, not the grandkids. Thats an old pic. Good old Daily Mail!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[rsd1200]

This kind of scenario has always made sense to me. A modest sort of living, or augmentation to other means of support.

What it would do, in addition, would be to put them into contact with other folks in the trade--as in the folks along the food chain distributing and marketing. Possibly also into word of mouth knowledge of doing a value-add to their product via conversion to "shatter." Someone with a bit of ambition might easily look for ways to expand, either through a bigger operation, new product line, or branching into other areas of the trade (such as distribution). These are the kinds of things that pose an economic threat to others. And others might tell them to forget about it, but they would have to be willing to back that up. And they might likely be sufficiently savvy to recognize that taking down a single R was likely to simply draw a whole lot of others out of the woodwork. IOW--a case of go big or go home. And who knows what other personal scores might have been percolating around for awhile.

So--they may well have been small-timers, but they had bigger ambitions that landed them in trouble.

It could have been a single person, too, who had a history of needle use, who played in the wrong sandbox.

 

[Dudly]

Interesting, these two final ones were purchased exactly a month before the murders.

I've wondered if that had something to do with the murders...

 

[Dudly]

Hope this isn't against TOS. I got a little more curious about the land and such so have been taking a look. If someone has land that's paid for, that could be used as collateral to borrow against, especially by placing a mobile home with an occupant, on the land. IAN into real estate, so if my terminology is incorrect, please forgive, and feel free to let me know, and I'll update.


CR1 Property Acquired:


#040382999999
799 Left Fork Rd., Lucasville, OH
Date Acquired: 5/30/2008
Sale Price $0
1989 MH 14x57 (appears to have been on property at time of transfer).
As of 6/2016 Appraised Value = $6,380


040532020000
S Side 4740 Camp Creek Rd C-22, Lucasville, OH
Date Acquired 05/15/08
Sale Price $8,000
10 x 12 shed on property at time of sale.
At time of sale there was no trailer, and doesnt' appear to be one installed until sometime in 2014, based on map data.
FCV $6,940
Shed $60.00


230077000000
4203 N SIDE UNION RD C-30
.35 Acres
CR1 acquired from TR, mil. on 03/26/09 for $1,800
Taxes were delinquent on the property when he purchased (unsure if this is how he acquired or not).
FCV $1,830

#230462
M/H only, bought, and placed, on 4077 UHR property.
4077 UHR, Piketon, OH
Date Acquired: 05/09/09
No sale price listed.
2002 Fortune MH 14x60(Owner Occupied)
June 2016 appraised value $3,360




The 1084 Left Fork property was purchased by CR1 but is under CR1 et al.
040204000000
Listed under CR1 Et Al
1084 LEFT FORK ROAD. Otway, OH
Six Acres
Date Acquired:12/27/2010
Looks like CR1 may have picked this up due to delinquent taxes.
Sale Price is listed as $0.00
FCV $6,740 for land
Small structure on property valued at $363.00

Land FCV = $21,890


--------------------------------------------
The R siblings' father, Clarence, (CRSr.) Passed 07/16/2008


CR1 Et Al Land


040206000000
799 LEFT FORK RD T-312, Lucasville, OH
40 Acres, no buildings
CRsr acquired in 08/06/04 @ $21,150
NRT EtAl acquired 02/17/11 $0.00
CR1 EtAl acquired 10/09/12 $5,000
As of June 2016 Land Value $18,370


04020500000
799 LEFT FORK RD T-312
Date Acquired 09/30/2008
Eight Acres
Barn 34 x 60
MH
CR1 et al paid $4,000 in 2008
It then went to NRT et al in 02/2011
Then CR1 got it back in 10/2012 for $5k.
FCV $9,860


04064800000
Part of Left Fork Rd. properties
Seven Acres
CRsr bought this 08/06/2004 for $21,500.00
It went to CR1 Et Al on 1/06/11
FCV estimated at $8,170

The above 57 acres on LF, is worth well over the total $36k FCV.. It has over 500' of road frontage. It's wooded but partially cleared. Has a nice place for a home. Deer hunters, horse folks, people who like seclusion, etc... would be interested in that land. That's some pretty land (and it definitely has a heart shaped pond).


The Rs had land that was paid for, that they could borrow against, if need be.

Final Land Purchases listed only in CR1:
Paid $60,000 on 03/21/2016 for what appears to be two parcels.

18-0504.001
3122 Union Hill Road, Rarden, OH (Scioto County)
Six Acres
Current Value on Scioto Site is $52,220

18-0504.002
2920 Union Hill Road, Rarden, OH (Scioto County)
Two Acres
Current Value on Scioto Site is $15,840

That is a lot of property for collateral. I didn't realize there were that many acres in all and not much invested. Something that has been going on in my area for a few years. Land is bought and a pole barn is built on it. A year or so later a house is built on it. I'm guessing the amount the value increases is more that the pole barn costs and gives them more collateral for a house to be built. Not sure why else it would be done that way unless they don't think they can afford the barn with the house payment. I don't know....

 

[rsd1200]

I've wondered if that had something to do with the murders...

It was purchased from a couple, one of whom has since passed (no foul play).

 

[rsd1200]

This is totally O/T but I gotta say, I learn something new, every time I dig around on this case (so, basically, every day).

I'm a fairly frequent visitor to OH as I have a few family members in the state, go to concerts, m/c rallies, etc... but I'd never heard of the nudist retreat, in Peebles. Just found it interesting as we don't have those 'round these parts.

 

[rsd1200]

Well, it is DailyMail. But still, the pictures are interesting.

The lawyer put the Mexican Cartel back on the plate. I don't believe it at all. I don't think it will play in their favour to make such comment. If that was the info on business associates they shared with LE, then it is a big disappointment. But that's jmo. What do I know.

BBM
Guilty, or not, surely they've kept up enough to know that ship has pretty much sailed.

Did find this interesting:

The family had been living in a red painted ranch house in Peterson Road, Peebles, Ohio, about a 15-minute drive from the Rhoden family home. It has been searched several times by detectives and the Wagners had agreed to be interviewed by cops, handing over their lap tops and other possessions.

and

He said the Wagners had supplied police with invaluable information to help the investigation.
'Why have the authorities not follow up on the leads that the Wagners wanted to give? Is it because the authorities carelessly waited 4-5 months to get back to Billy Wagner?

Soooo, after five months BW can't still give them the info, or could he not have made the move himself to contact, and give them the info?

 

[rsd1200]

That is a lot of property for collateral. I didn't realize there were that many acres in all and not much invested. Something that has been going on in my area for a few years. Land is bought and a pole barn is built on it. A year or so later a house is built on it. I'm guessing the amount the value increases is more that the pole barn costs and gives them more collateral for a house to be built. Not sure why else it would be done that way unless they don't think they can afford the barn with the house payment. I don't know....

Again, I'm not in real estate, but have kin...

Banks are more likely to feel more comfortable to loan against a piece of property, if it is an equity loan, where you've shown some kind of improvements on the property, or put a house/MH on there for rental purposes, or are living/building on the property yourself. It makes them feel more comfortable that you won't just take off and leave them with a vacant piece of land and a debt.

If CR1 purchased the 4740 Camp Creek property, nine years ago, then in 2014 purchased a trailer for $3-$4k, even if it wasn't paid off, he could likely borrow on equity.

If it was paid off, he could borrow much more (probably around 60-70% of the value). As long as he showed steady employment, good credit, and showed he earned enough to make the monthly payment, they'd probably make a loan to him.

I may be completely off on this but my mil used to trade houses like some people trade cars. She was good at picking up properties.

Look at how good CRsr and CR1 were at putting together the 799 Left Fork Properties.

I left out a property. The one that KR was living on.

CR1 ET AL
0420400000
1084 Left Fork Road, Otway, OH
Unsure of purchase price
(I am not sure how they list purchase price/sale price)
Purchased 12/27/2010
Five Acres
FCV Land = $6,730
Bldg = $370

 

[jk204]

Again, I'm not in real estate, but have kin...

Banks are more likely to feel more comfortable to loan against a piece of property, if it is an equity loan, where you've shown some kind of improvements on the property, or put a house/MH on there for rental purposes, or are living/building on the property yourself. It makes them feel more comfortable that you won't just take off and leave them with a vacant piece of land and a debt.

If CR1 purchased the 4740 Camp Creek property, nine years ago, then in 2014 purchased a trailer for $3-$4k, even if it wasn't paid off, he could likely borrow on equity.

If it was paid off, he could borrow much more (probably around 60-70% of the value). As long as he showed steady employment, good credit, and showed he earned enough to make the monthly payment, they'd probably make a loan to him.

I may be completely off on this but my mil used to trade houses like some people trade cars. She was good at picking up properties.

Look at how good CRsr and CR1 were at putting together the 799 Left Fork Properties.

I left out a property. The one that KR was living on.

CR1 ET AL
0420400000
1084 Left Fork Road, Otway, OH
Unsure of purchase price
(I am not sure how they list purchase price/sale price)
Purchased 12/27/2010
Five Acres
FCV Land = $6,730
Bldg = $370

Do you know the name of the real estate agent involved in the sale/purchase of DRs property?

Any chance it's the same as the one involved the Ws property sale: it was listed at S* Realtors.

 

[jk204]

BBM
Guilty, or not, surely they've kept up enough to know that ship has pretty much sailed.

Did find this interesting:

The family had been living in a red painted ranch house in Peterson Road, Peebles, Ohio, about a 15-minute drive from the Rhoden family home. It has been searched several times by detectives and the Wagners had agreed to be interviewed by cops, handing over their lap tops and other possessions.

and

He said the Wagners had supplied police with invaluable information to help the investigation.
'Why have the authorities not follow up on the leads that the Wagners wanted to give? Is it because the authorities carelessly waited 4-5 months to get back to Billy Wagner?

Soooo, after five months BW can't still give them the info, or could he not have made the move himself to contact, and give them the info?

When info is provided to LE, LE does not owe anything back. The info may be interesting or not interesting. It can be complete or incomplete, they are not going to say.

Especially if you are too close to a case. LE would come back to you only if they feel they could get more without jeopardizing the case.

 

[Jennifer17]

Where I live, you do not get loans on what equity you have in the property, it is what the property is worth. If you have used that as security and fail on payments for the loan, the bank will sell both or all up to get the money owed. Equity only means that you may get back some money back after all costs are taken out.

 

[Dudly]

It was purchased from a couple, one of whom has since passed (no foul play).

I meant someone being upset about the purchase. Not the seller. Maybe someone hoping to inherit that property or someone upset that CR1 had that much money to spend. Just some thoughts...

 

[Dudly]

BBM
Guilty, or not, surely they've kept up enough to know that ship has pretty much sailed.

Did find this interesting:

The family had been living in a red painted ranch house in Peterson Road, Peebles, Ohio, about a 15-minute drive from the Rhoden family home. It has been searched several times by detectives and the Wagners had agreed to be interviewed by cops, handing over their lap tops and other possessions.

and

He said the Wagners had supplied police with invaluable information to help the investigation.
'Why have the authorities not follow up on the leads that the Wagners wanted to give? Is it because the authorities carelessly waited 4-5 months to get back to Billy Wagner?

Soooo, after five months BW can't still give them the info, or could he not have made the move himself to contact, and give them the info?

I have to believe that LE had closely scrutinized Wagners early on. Why the laser focus this late in the game? Are they hoping someone else will get lax with the attention on them? Are there BCI agents that wanted vacations in Alaska so now they have to go there to interview them? If LE did not follow up on leads, it wouldn't be a big surprise.
I do believe that if you spend too much time trying to figure out what the heck LE, DeWine, and BCI is doing in this case, you will end up in a room with nice soft walls and no pointy objects...lol
I

 

[Dudly]

This is totally O/T but I gotta say, I learn something new, every time I dig around on this case (so, basically, every day).

I'm a fairly frequent visitor to OH as I have a few family members in the state, go to concerts, m/c rallies, etc... but I'd never heard of the nudist retreat, in Peebles. Just found it interesting as we don't have those 'round these parts.

I'm from Ohio and did not know that, either. I guess they are closed in the winter? lol

 

[Subiechik21]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4683690/Pictured-people-laser-focus-multiple-murder-hunt.html

News from Alaska with pictures

I was going to post this link, but you beat me to it . Thanks for posting!

 

[Betty P]

Hope this isn't against TOS. I got a little more curious about the land and such so have been taking a look. If someone has land that's paid for, that could be used as collateral to borrow against, especially by placing a mobile home with an occupant, on the land. IAN into real estate, so if my terminology is incorrect, please forgive, and feel free to let me know, and I'll update.


CR1 Property Acquired:


#040382999999
799 Left Fork Rd., Lucasville, OH
Date Acquired: 5/30/2008
Sale Price $0
1989 MH 14x57 (appears to have been on property at time of transfer).
As of 6/2016 Appraised Value = $6,380


040532020000
S Side 4740 Camp Creek Rd C-22, Lucasville, OH
Date Acquired 05/15/08
Sale Price $8,000
10 x 12 shed on property at time of sale.
At time of sale there was no trailer, and doesnt' appear to be one installed until sometime in 2014, based on map data.
FCV $6,940
Shed $60.00


230077000000
4203 N SIDE UNION RD C-30
.35 Acres
CR1 acquired from TR, mil. on 03/26/09 for $1,800
Taxes were delinquent on the property when he purchased (unsure if this is how he acquired or not).
FCV $1,830

#230462
M/H only, bought, and placed, on 4077 UHR property.
4077 UHR, Piketon, OH
Date Acquired: 05/09/09
No sale price listed.
2002 Fortune MH 14x60(Owner Occupied)
June 2016 appraised value $3,360




The 1084 Left Fork property was purchased by CR1 but is under CR1 et al.
040204000000
Listed under CR1 Et Al
1084 LEFT FORK ROAD. Otway, OH
Six Acres
Date Acquired:12/27/2010
Looks like CR1 may have picked this up due to delinquent taxes.
Sale Price is listed as $0.00
FCV $6,740 for land
Small structure on property valued at $363.00

Land FCV = $21,890


--------------------------------------------
The R siblings' father, Clarence, (CRSr.) Passed 07/16/2008


CR1 Et Al Land


040206000000
799 LEFT FORK RD T-312, Lucasville, OH
40 Acres, no buildings
CRsr acquired in 08/06/04 @ $21,150
NRT EtAl acquired 02/17/11 $0.00
CR1 EtAl acquired 10/09/12 $5,000
As of June 2016 Land Value $18,370


04020500000
799 LEFT FORK RD T-312
Date Acquired 09/30/2008
Eight Acres
Barn 34 x 60
MH
CR1 et al paid $4,000 in 2008
It then went to NRT et al in 02/2011
Then CR1 got it back in 10/2012 for $5k.
FCV $9,860


04064800000
Part of Left Fork Rd. properties
Seven Acres
CRsr bought this 08/06/2004 for $21,500.00
It went to CR1 Et Al on 1/06/11
FCV estimated at $8,170

The above 57 acres on LF, is worth well over the total $36k FCV.. It has over 500' of road frontage. It's wooded but partially cleared. Has a nice place for a home. Deer hunters, horse folks, people who like seclusion, etc... would be interested in that land. That's some pretty land (and it definitely has a heart shaped pond).


The Rs had land that was paid for, that they could borrow against, if need be.

Final Land Purchases listed only in CR1:
Paid $60,000 on 03/21/2016 for what appears to be two parcels.

18-0504.001
3122 Union Hill Road, Rarden, OH (Scioto County)
Six Acres
Current Value on Scioto Site is $52,220

18-0504.002
2920 Union Hill Road, Rarden, OH (Scioto County)
Two Acres
Current Value on Scioto Site is $15,840

Remember, the purchase of DR's home was accomplished with cash and a bank mortgage. To save some time, if you go back to the early threads on this case hear at Websleuths, you'll find a lot of discussion on the land transactions, etc. It might save some time on doing the research. They went back to father's ownership, etc. even probate records, IIRC.

From what I recall of that, it didn't appear CRSr had a lot of extra cash he was using to buy up real estate, start new businesses, etc. He had some extra money but not an excessive amount, unless it was cash sitting somewhere on his properties.

Still can't believe this case is still unsolved over a year after the murders. LE has to know who did it, they just don't want to spring the trap because of collateral damage.

 

[rsd1200]

When info is provided to LE, LE does not owe anything back. The info may be interesting or not interesting. It can be complete or incomplete, they are not going to say.

Especially if you are too close to a case. LE would come back to you only if they feel they could get more without jeopardizing the case.

That statement from, I guess the lawyer, struck me as odd. My comment was mostly sarcasm but I failed to put the /s. My point was, along the lines, that if BW felt he had such compelling leads, why did he wait around for them to get back to him? He surely knows how to use a phone. This is his supposed best friend, grandchild's mother, and the majority of her maternal family, who were murdered. Surely he could pick up a phone, and place a call, to Dewine's office, or BCI, if he felt his leads were that critical and local authorities were not getting back with him. In other words, I call b.s.

He said the Wagners had supplied police with invaluable information to help the investigation.
'Why have the authorities not follow up on the leads that the Wagners wanted to give? Is it because the authorities carelessly waited 4-5 months to get back to Billy Wagner?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-people-laser-focus-multiple-murder-hunt.html

 

[Betty P]

BBM
Guilty, or not, surely they've kept up enough to know that ship has pretty much sailed.

Did find this interesting:

The family had been living in a red painted ranch house in Peterson Road, Peebles, Ohio, about a 15-minute drive from the Rhoden family home. It has been searched several times by detectives and the Wagners had agreed to be interviewed by cops, handing over their lap tops and other possessions.

and

He said the Wagners had supplied police with invaluable information to help the investigation.
'Why have the authorities not follow up on the leads that the Wagners wanted to give? Is it because the authorities carelessly waited 4-5 months to get back to Billy Wagner?

Soooo, after five months BW can't still give them the info, or could he not have made the move himself to contact, and give them the info?

JMO, the only reason LE decided to pick up activity on the case again and do the raids (and why the W's moved to AK) was because of pressure by the news media, including the lawsuit over the autopsy reports.

 

[Betty P]

That statement from, I guess the lawyer, struck me as odd. My comment was mostly sarcasm but I failed to put the /s. My point was, along the lines, that if BW felt he had such compelling leads, why did he wait around for them to get back to him? He surely knows how to use a phone. This is his supposed best friend, grandchild's mother, and the majority of her maternal family, who were murdered. Surely he could pick up a phone, and place a call, to Dewine's office, or BCI, if he felt his leads were that critical and local authorities were not getting back with him. In other words, I call b.s.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-people-laser-focus-multiple-murder-hunt.html

You're so right. We're only hearing their attorney's version of the story and it doesn't ring true. From all appearances, the W family has done nothing to help solve this case and provided no information that LE didn't force from them through search warrants or interviews. Even then, I'm not sure how much of their attorney's story to believe regarding LE searches prior to their leaving for AK.

 

[Betty P]

I'm still shocked that, according to the latest Daily Mail article, 12 different law enforcement agencies saw a reason to stop and question this family. And 12 different times, Ohio's AG said to let them go on. Wow, just wow. This is very important information.

Perhaps that's why BCI went through the charade of searching the Wagner properties after the family had left for AK, to give the appearance of trying to investigate this family? The fact they searched the grandparents estate, Flying W Farms, tipped their hand, though. JMO, there's no future theory about these killings that shouldn't include the patriarchs of the Wagner family and their extensive holdings and business relationships and operations. The answers lie in those connections.

ETA: I'm going to theorize that the W's were detained 12 times on their trip to AK because they were flagged in the national/international LE computer system. Someone, likely federal agencies, put them in the system as criminal suspects. JMO, this indicates to me that federal investigators and Ohio investigators are pursuing this case quite differently. Feds see them as suspects to be detained. Ohio does not.

Feds likely put them in that system so they could be detained and investigated. Since they're not allowed to participate in the actual Ohio investigation, it may be the only card they can play for now where they have jurisdiction. At each of those 12 stops, someone must have called Ohio BCI who told them to let them go. But the Feds wanted them stopped. Here's hoping their presence in AK will give the Feds the opportunity to finally pursue this case on their own.

Wouldn't you love to have been a fly on the wall during that 12 hr detention? I'd love to know what questions were being asked. JMO, since the feds haven't had much access to the investigative work of Ohio BCI since the early days, there must have been something that triggered their interest in the W family from the beginning. Were they already under FBI or DEA surveillance before the murders?