OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #31

[Satchie]

On the motives, can we include "long simmering resentments unknown to us"
And do we need to include RRL incident the kids going after CRjr and showing up around his home. I understand what your saying I think. We need to simplify.

My thoughts are that a pretty large proportion of the human population have long-simmering resentments against various other people. Fortunately, healthy, sane people wouldn't massacre an extended family in this manner, as a result of their resentment.

There might be a flare-up of rage from bad blood, and one or two people killed, but the killer is usually caught because they weren't thinking straight, they were so consumed by emotion.

But for something as carefully carried out as this, I think these people had to be sociopaths, people who don't feel much emotion for anyone.

Apparently, sociopaths carry a long-standing resentment against the world.https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...g-the-sociopath-cause-motivation-relationship .
But the people they kill just happen to be in the sociopath's cross hairs, the motive makes no sense, murder is all out of proportion to the motive.

Like school shootings: some kid's having a bad day, he kills a bunch of classmates. Or guys like Douglas Garland, an ex-con who resented that Alvin Liknes didn't credit him on a patent, for a little work he'd done on a useless device that never made any money, but Garland stewed about it for years before killing Liknes and his family. http://nationalpost.com/opinion/chr...rial-dont-anger-the-psychopaths-in-your-midst

Or Charles Merritt, who allegedly had a gambling addiction and stole $20,000 from the McStay business so he could go on a spree at the casinos. Who'd have thought that was a good reason to kill a family?

 

[MizStery]

This is one of those deals where what constitutes a "dispute"? A disagreement? A screaming match? Physical threat? Legal action threat? We don't know how serious it was for sure and I'm sure opinions would differ depending who described it. JW, I think, said it was to make the joint custody arrangement legal. She may not have wanted to do that for various reasons.
The only thing I've wondered about is who had his daughter the week prior. One reporter says HR brought her to JW's house the Friday prior. He said in an interview he picked her up the night before the murders. Which is correct and why the discrepancy? The reporter could have been in error and he may have wanted to make it sound more exciting on his part. I'm not sure we will ever which is correct for sure. If you want to claim the W's were involved in the murders, then you will say he lied
<snip>
..

Given it was a custody dispute, it was likely an ongoing battle that was creating stress for the families involved and probably resulting in some heated exchanges now and then. I'd be willing to bet there had been a few confrontations between family members once the W's announced their intentions. If CR1's decision to purchase the new home for DR and kids was motivated by concern over a custody battle, the tensions and conflicts between the two families could have been going on for some time - a month or two.

My recall from reviewing Chris Graves' reporting for the Cincinnati Enquirer is that Hanna dropped off S on the 15th, just a couple days before she delivered her new baby on the 17th. But didn't JW's interview say he had "planned" to drop her off or somesuch. Yes, he seems hinky on this recounting of this part of the timeline seems strange. One would hope LE questioned him closely on this and regard him as a POI if he can't clear it up. Hope, anyway.

I thought Saturday was the agreed upon date for swapping the kids out (according to Angela W's story). He picked Sophia up on Friday (his original story). His second story after distancing himself from the crime scene, both physically and literally, was that Hannah dropped Sophia off at the Wagner's home.

Do we want to include the following event in the timeline. JW gave an inconsistent statement on whose residence the joint custody exchange for SW took place. The question looms was JW evasiveness driven by an attempt to distance himself from ground zero of one of the primary CSs? Then another question is was there any indication who requested the scheduled joint custody start date be moved one day earlier?

So in conclusion was any reason ever given why and which parent needed the schedule to be modified?Then the final question becomes what reason was given?

I'm including my post for context*.

*Here is the post I referred to in the quote above:

Even after reading the paragraph about how,who picked up their daughter I'm still confused.

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]<snip>
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold] *A Piketon police spokesperson said officers were 'interested in receiving information regarding any interactions, conversations, dealings, or transactions that the public may have had with these individuals (Wagners), which could be personal, business, or otherwise. Specifically information… regarding vehicles, firearms, and ammunition.'

[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]The slayings of the Rhoden family have led to the biggest murder investigation in the state of Ohio's history with initially more than 200 detectives on the case.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]<snip>[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]Unusually, he collected his daughter the day before the massacre from her mother instead of the usual agreed Friday.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]<snip>[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]DailyMail.com asked George Jr why they had put down new roots in Alaska and if the police scrutiny was wearing his family down, but he refused to comment.[/FONT][/FONT]

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...focus-multiple-murder-hunt.html#ixzz59ZWwsDd1
:cow:

 

[amauet1]

*Here is the post I referred to in the quote above:

I think that should be included. Sorry it seems I only got part of your quote when giving my opinion of it. I feel JW and his changed stories should be included in the timeline.

 

[amauet1]

On the great security of this crime and how things have been kept so quiet. Remember all the "task forces" that were in place or started (as far as we know) after the murders? Could these murders have been done, right in the middle of some FBI/DEA investigations? Maybe a "case" could be compromised by catching the murderers. Or, like Dewine said, there's more going on in Pike Co, than we were aware of. (not exact quote) The Eury's were busted about 3 months after the murders and authorities said they'd been investigating them for a few months, that could have been around April. And Mr. Eury only got 30 months on his sentence, when usually someone involved in what he was doing would get about 10 years. Could he have been an "informant" of some kind and got his sentence reduced.? There's been a lot of busts since the murders.
Not saying he is responsible for all of them. Could a lot of what's going on in Pike Co involve "higher ups", that have been in the game for years and all the "tips" and informant's have made it possible for authorities to get them? And could the murders of these families be part of that? It would make sense to keep everything under wraps.

 

[rsd1200]

On the camera thing. Couldn't they just take the vcr/computer they were attached to? I don't know about trail cams.

I don't know if it was rumor or not but LM said there were cameras all over the place. He'd mentioned one being in a bird house. That sounded a bit like a trail cam to me, if that was the case, they'd have to know where those were. Again, just speculation based on what I've read. Another big "If".

He also said at least two of the properties were the crimes were committed were equipped with surveillance cameras, but investigators haven't said if they found anything on the footage.


"Chris had one even in a bird house, one of those shell cameras. We ain't heard on none of that either. Kenneth had cameras all over that place where he lived," Manley said.

http://www.wlwt.com/article/rhoden-...eo-plea-for-information-about-murders/9538659

 

[rsd1200]

I know, the consequences of anyone saying anything most be immense. To me only "higher ups" have that kind of power.

That's an awful lot of folks who have gone silent though. Nothing. Zip. The White House has leaks, Governor's Mansions have leaks, but this, this is different. We've not gotten a single leak, in coming up on two years. I don't recall one anyway. Not even the type of firearms, or number of people involved, or even possible order of death, nothing.

 

[rsd1200]

I think about that one shot to KR to Dud, It seemed almost like an after thought. Like we don't need anything (info) from him and bam.

Or they'd already gotten it. Maybe he was the unwitting one, and it was his "frienemy" who had buddied up to him, to get into the homes of the others? Maybe the assailant had come to even like KR, thus not being as brutal with him? Again, just thinking.

 

[rsd1200]

*Here is the post I referred to in the quote above:

Here it is again, July 29, 2016 (I screen-shotted it too b/c some papers changed it w/o doing an edit, iirc). That last line, missed it by hours, makes me think this, his original statement, was the truthful one.

HR and JW shared custody of S, who was supposed to be with her mom that fateful Friday evening, he said. But Wagner picked her up a day earlier than normal: "I reckon we missed it by just hours."

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/07/29/rhoden-case-hate-seeing-my-daughter-cry/87645382/

 

[amauet1]

That's an awful lot of folks who have gone silent though. Nothing. Zip. The White House has leaks, Governor's Mansions have leaks, but this, this is different. We've not gotten a single leak, in coming up on two years. I don't recall one anyway. Not even the type of firearms, or number of people involved, or even possible order of death, nothing.

That's true, what is keeping everyone so quiet? I don't think it's fear, LE made it pretty clear after the families were found that they (killers) were only after that family. What does that leave?

 

[Satchie]

Or they'd already gotten it. Maybe he was the unwitting one, and it was his "frienemy" who had buddied up to him, to get into the homes of the others? Maybe the assailant had come to even like KR, thus not being as brutal with him? Again, just thinking.

I think, when detectives found KR, the first assumption might have been that KR was the killer, and had afterwards committed suicide. It seems a likely scenario in theory, just because the other targets were all connected to his brother, rather than to him. So I agree, without considering motive or personality, it could have involved KR, who was then eliminated. The cash is a peculiar feature of his death, as well.

 

[amauet1]

I've spent the morning going through the probate records and some new info has been released since the last time I checked them (last month). First of all on all the dockets (documents) I have found a death certificate except on Kenneth's. Some of the docs you can see and some you can't, but there is no death cert. listed on Kenneth's. I checked several times, I wonder why? All the insurance monies for HMR, FR and CRjr have been released to admin TR with a date of April 30th 2018 set for a hearing on the accounts. All had about 6,000.00 deducted from the accounts for debts and claims againest the estate. Maybe money was still owed on funerals or head stone?
FR's asset's included a 2000 Ford pickup that was listed as worth 100.00 because it was wrecked and totaled. 7.54 in the bank and his insurance money. No mention of the 3000.00 Derby car that everyone was so jealous of. The kids cars (HMR and CRjr) must have been in one of their parents names. HMR had income listed as 938.13. Their has been a guardian ad litem assigned for the minor children.
Dana and CRsr both have extensions filed on their asset lists. Inventory lists are due April 24th 2018.
On Kenneth's there are some things listed but it's just a partcial list because all asset's can't be listed until everything is released by LE, this includes Dana and CRsr's also. There is KR's final paycheck of 744.96 and 671.26 in a bank account, 13 cars listed, but value not included until release and appraised. Also included in Kenneth's documents the property co owned by CRsr, TR, BR1 and KR. Properties have been appraised and value listed. All together property value is 120,500.00. Each owned 1/4 share that comes to 30,125.00 each.
Just thought some would like to know this.

 

[amauet1]

I think, when detectives found KR, the first assumption might have been that KR was the killer, and had afterwards committed suicide. It seems a likely scenario in theory, just because the other targets were all connected to his brother, rather than to him. So I agree, without considering motive or personality, it could have involved KR, who was then eliminated. The cash is a peculiar feature of his death, as well.

The way he was found, shot once and with money their has always made me curious. It sets him apart from the others somehow. In using myself as an example. I hear a big part of my family has been murdered, first thing I'm going to do is check with other family members to make sure their ok and to let them know what has happened. If I can't get a hold of someone in my family, that is known to frequent the family members that have been murdered, I would be spending my time tracking them down. Even if they are at work, I would tell whoever that it's an emergency and to get them on the phone with me asap! The family didn't do this. Nobody even went an checked on KR until around 1 or 1:30 that afternoon. Then a family member is sent to check on him from another family member, in the church where police are present. Why? Why did it take 5 1/2 hours before someone thought of him. Makes no sense to me at all.

 

[rsd1200]

I am not good with bringing things over, so I screen-shotted the post. It's of amauet and me. Discussing the time that JW picked up little S. It was originally in the paper, I think it was the article, Death in the Foothills, but it's since been changed and that link does not connect now, but it was stated in that article that JW picked S up at 10:30 on the night before, so, as he said, in the other article, he "missed it by hours".

The article now reads:

[FONT=&amp]HMR, 19, had packed up her older daughter, S, and dropped her off at her father's home on Friday April 15. She presumably snuggled in with her newborn she&#8217;d been faithfully nursing that week. Her brother, CJr., 16, was also likely home when their mom arrived home after pulling a double shift at the nursing home because he had school the next day.[/FONT]

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/10/15/pike-county-death-foothills/91496698/

 

[rsd1200]

That's true, what is keeping everyone so quiet? I don't think it's fear, LE made it pretty clear after the families were found that they (killers) were only after that family. What does that leave?

As far as folks who may know something, and were there that day, who were funeral home workers, and lived within the community, it could be a distrust of outsiders who come in from the media. Remember the Hazlitt article? The only folks who really talked to them, iirc was the pastor, and LM and his immediate family. Probably, in part, out of respect for the families, too. They'd not want it to get back, who'd been the gossips, and who told such things. It could lose them business. Whether folks may have liked/or disliked someone, who has passed, speaking about the dead, is kind of a touchy subject.

 

[rsd1200]

I've spent the morning going through the probate records and some new info has been released since the last time I checked them (last month). First of all on all the dockets (documents) I have found a death certificate except on Kenneth's. Some of the docs you can see and some you can't, but there is no death cert. listed on Kenneth's. I checked several times, I wonder why? All the insurance monies for HMR, FR and CRjr have been released to admin TR with a date of April 30th 2018 set for a hearing on the accounts. All had about 6,000.00 deducted from the accounts for debts and claims againest the estate. Maybe money was still owed on funerals or head stone?
FR's asset's included a 2000 Ford pickup that was listed as worth 100.00 because it was wrecked and totaled. 7.54 in the bank and his insurance money. No mention of the 3000.00 Derby car that everyone was so jealous of. The kids cars (HMR and CRjr) must have been in one of their parents names. HMR had income listed as 938.13. Their has been a guardian ad litem assigned for the minor children.
Dana and CRsr both have extensions filed on their asset lists. Inventory lists are due April 24th 2018.
On Kenneth's there are some things listed but it's just a partcial list because all asset's can't be listed until everything is released by LE, this includes Dana and CRsr's also. There is KR's final paycheck of 744.96 and 671.26 in a bank account, 13 cars listed, but value not included until release and appraised. Also included in Kenneth's documents the property co owned by CRsr, TR, BR1 and KR. Properties have been appraised and value listed. All together property value is 120,500.00. Each owned 1/4 share that comes to 30,125.00 each.
Just thought some would like to know this.

Interesting. Thanks for this. LM said that DR had about 15 vehicles in her name, and, as usual, KR doesn't fit with the others.

 

[Betty P]

Just a little local news, probably doesn't have anything to do with the Rhoden case, but you never know.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...enberger-ohio-speaker-travel-condo/502388002/

 

[Betty P]

Interesting. Thanks for this. LM said that DR had about 15 vehicles in her name, and, as usual, KR doesn't fit with the others.

Tony Rhoden is the person handling most of the Rhoden cases, with the exception of Dana (handled by LM) and Kenneth (handled by his daughter Kendra). The difference with Kenneth may have to do with how his daughter is handling his estate.

 

[rsd1200]

The way he was found, shot once and with money their has always made me curious. It sets him apart from the others somehow. In using myself as an example. I hear a big part of my family has been murdered, first thing I'm going to do is check with other family members to make sure their ok and to let them know what has happened. If I can't get a hold of someone in my family, that is known to frequent the family members that have been murdered, I would be spending my time tracking them down. Even if they are at work, I would tell whoever that it's an emergency and to get them on the phone with me asap! The family didn't do this. Nobody even went an checked on KR until around 1 or 1:30 that afternoon. Then a family member is sent to check on him from another family member, in the church where police are present. Why? Why did it take 5 1/2 hours before someone thought of him. Makes no sense to me at all.

KR2 kind of explains it, and I can see it, from her viewpoint, b/c of it being a work day, and he worked pretty far from home. He worked at US Utilities, out of Columbus. It's pretty big contractor outfit I think. So he may not have just walked in and punched a card. It was 7:49 (7:53 by some counts) when BJM called 911. It was 10:07 a.m. when they'd found/ located all first seven bodies. The 911 call for KR was placed at 1:26 p.m. with discovery released at 2:33. Most likely calls went out to CR1's mother, and then went out to others, from there. They may have taken folks phones, who discovered the bodies, too.

What I don't understand is why DS didn't say, when they tried to call KR; Hey, we were going to get up early and work on cars this morning, he wasn't going to work today. We'd better go check on him!!

KR:
[FONT=&amp]By 1 p.m. Kendra - and the world - would find out it was more than just Uncle Chris.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]&#8220;We&#8217;re calling him. We&#8217;re leaving messages. He was supposed to be at work. Well, then, 12 o&#8217;clock came around, he was supposed to be on break. My dad never ignored me,&#8221; Kendra recalled. She'd thought her dad was at his job in Columbus. [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Then, the family sent a friend and a Rhoden cousin over to check Kenneth&#8217;s home. The pair called Kendra&#8217;s aunt to tell her the news.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]That aunt broke the news to Kendra as the remaining Rhoden family members stood together, awaiting updates from law enforcement near Union Hill Road that morning.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]&#8220;She just said Kenneth&#8217;s dead. Your dad&#8217;s gone.&#8221;

http://www.fox19.com/story/33438311...-investigators-amid-pike-county-investigation
[/FONT]

 

[amauet1]

Tony Rhoden is the person handling most of the Rhoden cases, with the exception of Dana (handled by LM) and Kenneth (handled by his daughter Kendra). The difference with Kenneth may have to do with how his daughter is handling his estate.

Betty, I think you mentioned you had read the probate documents. Did you find KR's death certificate on his papers? His was the only one that didn't have one. And did you notice the additional family members filing for there piece of the pie from KR?

 

[amauet1]

KR2 kind of explains it, and I can see it, from her viewpoint, b/c of it being a work day, and he worked pretty far from home. He worked at US Utilities, out of Columbus. It's pretty big contractor outfit I think. So he may not have just walked in and punched a card. It was 7:49 (7:53 by some counts) when BJM called 911. It was 10:07 a.m. when they'd found located the first seven bodies. KR was found at 2:33. Most likely calls went out to CR1's mother, and then went out to others, from there. They may have taken folks phones, who discovered the bodies, too.

What I don't understand is why DS didn't say, when they tried to call KR; Hey, we were going to get up early and work on cars this morning, he wasn't going to work today. We'd better go check on him!!

KR:
[FONT=&amp]By 1 p.m. Kendra - and the world - would find out it was more than just Uncle Chris.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]&#8220;We&#8217;re calling him. We&#8217;re leaving messages. He was supposed to be at work. Well, then, 12 o&#8217;clock came around, he was supposed to be on break. My dad never ignored me,&#8221; Kendra recalled. She'd thought her dad was at his job in Columbus. [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Then, the family sent a friend and a Rhoden cousin over to check Kenneth&#8217;s home. The pair called Kendra&#8217;s aunt to tell her the news.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]That aunt broke the news to Kendra as the remaining Rhoden family members stood together, awaiting updates from law enforcement near Union Hill Road that morning.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]&#8220;She just said Kenneth&#8217;s dead. Your dad&#8217;s gone.&#8221;

http://www.fox19.com/story/33438311...-investigators-amid-pike-county-investigation
[/FONT]

You would think that the company would have some way of getting in touch with their workers out in the field in case there's an emergency at home, or for the worker to receive the next place they need to go work at, or emergency utility repair at some disaster.