OH - Tamir Rice, 12, with pellet gun, fatally shot by Cleveland LEO, Wrongful Death suit, Nov 2014

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KEVINinTO said:
He was twelve going on twenty. From the witness statements from the newly released Sheriff report officers who arrived on the scene after the shooting thought Rice was between 18 and 20 and no wonder - he was close to 200 pounds!
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Lol, "but Officer, she LOOKED 20!"
Doesn't work for creepy pervs who troll for underage girls and it doesn't work, here.

IMO
 
KEVINinTO said:
He was twelve going on twenty. From the witness statements from the newly released Sheriff report officers who arrived on the scene after the shooting thought Rice was between 18 and 20 and no wonder - he was close to 200 pounds!
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My son is similar in height and weight to Tamir and at age 12 wears a mens size 11 shoe. There are many 6th graders taller than staff at schools in this area. Perhaps you live in an area with very small people, but it is not at all uncommon to see a 12 yr old in the area of 5'7" and 180-200 lbs.

Tamir's size is irrelevant, he is still a child and not yet a teen.

Murder is murder, cop or not. Cop's don't get a license to kill without cause. This former LEO is a child murderer. We all saw it with our own eyes on video.
 
I want to know why the 911 dispatcher did not relay to the officers that the caller said the gun is probably a fake? I feel like this situation would have been approached differently had the officers been aware of that. Even without knowing that, I think the way the officers responded to the situation was terrible and charges are warranted. If there were no reports of shots fired and nobody else in the immediate area there was no reason to roll up on him like that.
 
EllieBee said:
Lol, "but Officer, she LOOKED 20!"
Doesn't work for creepy pervs who troll for underage girls and it doesn't work, here.

IMO
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Every witness who came into contact with Rice post shooting incident thought that he was in his late teens or even as old as 22! Even the emergency room physicians working under the bright lights of the ER thought they were working on an adult as evidenced by the fact that when they tried to intubate Rice they selected a tube sized for an adult (the procedure failed). See page 220 of the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's report.

If medical professional's were of the opinion that Rice was far older than age 12 it will be easy for a GJ to accept as fact that the officers thought they were dealing with someone much older , i.e. they were not "making it up".

Also now that we see that the replica firearm looked so real I doubt that it would have made any difference if the officers had been told that the 911 caller said that it may be fake. Confronted by someone who looked like a young adult pointing what looked like a real gun no officer would take any chances on it maybe being fake.

I suppose that the officer driving could be faulted for his tactics - driving up beside Rice like he was a drive-by window - but I suspect the overly aggressive tactics were motivated by the fact that the incident was taking place in a playground next to a school and so the officers would have been concerned about any children playing nearby.
 
ZooSleuth said:
I want to know why the 911 dispatcher did not relay to the officers that the caller said the gun is probably a fake? I feel like this situation would have been approached differently had the officers been aware of that. Even without knowing that, I think the way the officers responded to the situation was terrible and charges are warranted. If there were no reports of shots fired and nobody else in the immediate area there was no reason to roll up on him like that.
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We probably won't know why this information was not passed on. According to the Cuyahoga Country Sheriff's report when the dispatcher was asked about this she declined to answer under the advice of her attorney.

As noted in my post above I don't think that it would have made any difference had the information been relayed since the replica firearm looked so real. Had the 911 caller said with certainty that it was a fake gun the information may have been relayed to the officers but his exact words were:

[911 caller stated] that the gun was ?probably fake", but he
?couldn?t tell if it was real or not".
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see page 3 of the investigative report

Since he said he couldn't tell if it was real or not I don't think many 911 dispatchers would relay such information to the officers.
 
KEVINinTO said:
We probably won't know why this information was not passed on. According to the Cuyahoga Country Sheriff's report when the dispatcher was asked about this she declined to answer under the advice of her attorney.

As noted in my post above I don't think that it would have made any difference had the information been relayed since the replica firearm looked so real. Had the 911 caller said with certainty that it was a fake gun the information may have been relayed to the officers but his exact words were:


see page 3 of the investigative report

Since he said he couldn't tell if it was real or not I don't think many 911 dispatchers would relay such information to the officers.
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But why not tell the officers exactly what the caller said and let the officers assess the authenticity of the gun? Give the kid more than a split second to react. The driving might have been a tactical error but it probably cost the kid his life.
 
bwt42 said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tamir-rice-police-expert_56451796e4b08cda34883054

Another report completed & released.
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2IcVZUH.jpg
 
bwt42 said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tamir-rice-police-expert_56451796e4b08cda34883054

Another report completed & released.
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There's a great comment on this article that sums up my thoughts. I'll rephrase to abide by TOS:

"If this shooting was 'by the book' then the book was written wrong."

After watching the new surveillance footage I didn't see a single person flee the area out of fear. Everything appears normal until these "heroes" drive their police car on the lawn and save the day. This should have never happened IMO.
 
Remembering Tamir
One year after the police-shooting death of Tamir Rice, activists call for justice
November 24th, 2015
http://citybeat.com/cincinnati/article-34103-remembering_tamir.html
Three hundred and sixty-four days after a Cleveland police officer shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice, a group of about 60 people gathered in a cold, driving rain at the Hamilton County Courthouse.

Over a megaphone, organizers of the Nov. 21 demonstration addressed the crowd and a few beleaguered-looking TV news cameramen. An imam for a mosque in Clifton also spoke, as did representatives from local unions, a feminist group and others.

The diverse group gathered in solidarity with events in Cleveland and around the country remembering Rice, who was shot by officer Timothy Loehmann last year. The shooting has become yet another point of protest among activists decrying the deaths of unarmed blacks at the hands of law enforcement, often without charges for the officers involved. Activists say the lack of penalties for some officers and long waits for the trials of others are another grave injustice heaped atop the killings themselves.
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EllieBee said:
Lol, "but Officer, she LOOKED 20!"
Doesn't work for creepy pervs who troll for underage girls and it doesn't work, here.

IMO
Click to expand...

Those two situations aren't the same, at all. One is an officer seeing a man sized child wielding what appears to be a lethal weapon in a park, and shoots the child to prevent the death of the cops or other park goers. The other is a person who tolls for someone to have sex with.

Even if this boy were 8 years old, and wildly pointing a loaded gun at cops and park goers, it would have been a justifiable shooting, IMHO. When someone is about to shoot and kill someone else it really doesn't matter whether they are 12 or 18. You don't have to card a would-be murderer to take them seriously.

This is sad, sad. But honestly, sometimes, things appear to be honestly so dangerous, and so authentic, that no one should be expected to put their life in jeopardy and approach to determine if a gun is a toy or the real thing.

As always, every awful story has some small silver lining. In this case, i wonder how many parents more carefully inspected toy guns and didn't allow their kids to leave the house with something that looks authentic.
 
Tulessa said:
CLEVELAND (AP) - Nearly 400 days after a white Cleveland police officer fatally shot a black 12-year-old carrying a pellet gun, his family believes it's unlikely officers will be indicted.


http://www.wymt.com/content/news/Fa...ocial&utm_source=facebook_Mitchell_Grogg_WYMT
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It's sad that Tamir died the way he did, but it's understandable, IMO. I think that the officers should not be indicted or face any charges. Tamir's death, IMO, is a result of his and his parent's bad choices, and inadequate parenting. There is a lot of parenting that should have happened, IMO-- adult supervision, and teaching about handgun and gun safety. Yes, kids sometimes make stupid choices, but I doubt that he was taught much of anything about gun safety, or "look alike" guns, and the consequences of brandishing them in a public place. The pellet gun he had was intentionally altered to make it look like a real handgun-- and they DO look like real guns. I wish the whole thing hadn't happened, but I don't hold the officers responsible for any wrongdoing. Cleveland is a rough place-- I lived there for many years. This kid looked like an adult male brandishing a handgun-- police had to respond accordingly. If Tamir had put his hands up when he saw the police cars coming with lights and sirens, before the LEOs even got out of the squad car, he'd still be alive, IMO.

I do think kids dying by gunfire is a very serious situation, and heartbreaking-- and most of the kids under 12 that are dying from gunfire, are dying from drive by and gang related gunfire in violent inner city neighborhoods. I think many of us would like to see a lot of intense efforts, strenuous policing, protests, and lobbying to stop that. I can think of several kids under 12 in the last week or 2 that were in the news for being shot in inner-city non-police violence. But no one seems to care about that-- it's in the news, then gone. Like it's a normal thing or something--"another 5 year old got shot today, and what was the score on the football game?" I guess maybe it is normal, in those neighborhoods. I've never understood why the moms, or activist groups, haven't come together to protest that. That's a cause I could get behind and support strongly. A lot of people would understand that kind of protest, and support it, IMO. No one seems to really care unless a police officer was involved as the shooter, and there is a big potential payout for the relatives.
 
K_Z said:
It's sad that Tamir died the way he did, but it's understandable, IMO. I think that the officers should not be indicted or face any charges. Tamir's death, IMO, is a result of his and his parent's bad choices, and inadequate parenting. There is a lot of parenting that should have happened, IMO-- adult supervision, and teaching about handgun and gun safety. Yes, kids sometimes make stupid choices, but I doubt that he was taught much of anything about gun safety, or "look alike" guns, and the consequences of brandishing them in a public place. The pellet gun he had was intentionally altered to make it look like a real handgun-- and they DO look like real guns. I wish the whole thing hadn't happened, but I don't hold the officers responsible for any wrongdoing. Cleveland is a rough place-- I lived there for many years. This kid looked like an adult male brandishing a handgun-- police had to respond accordingly. If Tamir had put his hands up when he saw the police cars coming with lights and sirens, before the LEOs even got out of the squad car, he'd still be alive, IMO.

I do think kids dying by gunfire is a very serious situation, and heartbreaking-- and most of the kids under 12 that are dying from gunfire, are dying from drive by and gang related gunfire in violent inner city neighborhoods. I think many of us would like to see a lot of intense efforts, strenuous policing, protests, and lobbying to stop that. I can think of several kids under 12 in the last week or 2 that were in the news for being shot in inner-city non-police violence. But no one seems to care about that-- it's in the news, then gone. Like it's a normal thing or something--"another 5 year old got shot today, and what was the score on the football game?" I guess maybe it is normal, in those neighborhoods. I've never understood why the moms, or activist groups, haven't come together to protest that. That's a cause I could get behind and support strongly. A lot of people would understand that kind of protest, and support it, IMO. No one seems to really care unless a police officer was involved as the shooter, and there is a big potential payout for the relatives.
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Totally agree.
 
bluesneakers said:
They are probably right.

Everybody's fault but the man who pulled the trigger.
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Hey, you got to put yourself in the cops place. Take a look at that face. What cop wouldn't tremble with fear and shoot him in less then two seconds after seeing that face? He just looks so dangerous. :rolleyes:

You can’t tell him to drop it, because the toy could be real and he might shoot the cop, and a cop’s life is so much more important then the life of an innocent 12 year old boy. We can’t take a chance on one of our "brave hero" cops getting killed by a toy gun. :rolleyes:

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Image source
 
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