OH - Tamir Rice, 12, with pellet gun, fatally shot by Cleveland LEO, Wrongful Death suit, Nov 2014

[Margo/Mom]

Thanks for responding to questions in my earlier post - about what actions LEO s/h/taken to assess threat. The steps you suggest seem reasonable. Like you, I am not an expert on LE protocols.

From vid I've seen
- before LEOs arrive, ppl walk by guy w gun - within just a few ft of him.
- after LEOs arrive, imo, cam is zoomed in or vid is cropped to focus on smaller frame.
Wish we could see vid showing how close other ppl are when LEOs arrived, as vid gives impression that guy w gun is waaaaaay far away from other ppl and not endangering anyone.

How much time would elapse while LEOs were implementing those steps - waiting for other officers & vehicles to arrive? Wouls it h/bn 1 min, 5, 10 or more?
If, during that time, guy w gun had shot, injuring or killing one (non-LEO) person, is that acceptable outcome? 2, 3, 4, 5? What about one LEO? Or more?

Difficult situations, elusive answers. JM2cts,could be all wrong.

Where I live, I have never seen a police response to a firearms call that did not include at least two patrol cars, possibly more. First responders (squad, etc) will not approach a shooting victim until police arrive. SOP.

As you point out, this is far from a crowded area. It is a park, not residential, sparse to no visitors other than the kid. Passersby not reacting in alarm. IOW, I see very little risk associated with taking time to ensure not only the level of danger, but also to protect the officers. If we flip it, as presume that instead of a 12 yo kid with an air rifle, this was a mad man bent on killing someone. I think we would be looking at one dead officer, minimum.

 

[La Louve]

My earlier post asked for explanation about what actions LEOs should have taken.
Above post is not responsive, just re-states opinion concluding - LEOs' perception was wrong.

Repeating my question(s):
How should LEOs have assessed 'perceived threat? What actions should they h/taken?
Thx in adv.

Hi Alpine, I responded as much as I was able, given my restraints of bedtime and going to work. My apologies if that was not sufficient for you in the moment. Margo/Mom pretty much encapsulated my thoughts.

 

[al66pine]

Where I live, I have never seen a police response to a firearms call that did not include at least two patrol cars, possibly more. First responders (squad, etc) will not approach a shooting victim until police arrive. SOP.
As you point out, this is far from a crowded area. It is a park, not residential, sparse to no visitors other than the kid. Passersby not reacting in alarm. IOW, I see very little risk associated with taking time to ensure not only the level of danger, but also to protect the officers. If we flip it, as presume that instead of a 12 yo kid with an air rifle, this was a mad man bent on killing someone. I think we would be looking at one dead officer, minimum.

Margo/Mom
Thanks for further comments, raising an excellent point - your area LE's policy dictates two or + patrol cars to respond to a firearms call. I wonder if that is Cleveland PD's usu policy, and if so, whether dispatch had ordered another vehicle to the scene.

Thx again.

 

[al66pine]

Hi Alpine, I responded as much as I was able, given my restraints of bedtime and going to work. My apologies if that was not sufficient for you in the moment. Margo/Mom pretty much encapsulated my thoughts.

Thx for responding.
Margo/Mom's response included an excellent point about an LE policy which could have yielded a better result. My post noted it.

If other thoughts come to you about steps these Cleveland LEOs could have taken to better assess the threat, pls share. Thx in adv.

 

[La Louve]

Thx for responding.
Margo/Mom's response included an excellent point about an LE policy which could have yielded a better result. My post noted it.

If other thoughts come to you about steps these Cleveland LEOs could have taken to better assess the threat, pls share. Thx in adv.

I still have mixed feelings about the bodycams that some LE are taking to wearing. What about you? They're too easy to defeat, IMO. Not that that would have helped the "assessment" idea we're discussing.

I think part of the problem here is that we're not talking all LEOs, we're not even talking most LEOs. These instances often seem to be with an officer that has a repeated history of questionable shooting incidents. Or a history of some other job-related problems. So in most cases, LE does handle it properly, assesses correctly and acts accordingly, and no one gets hurt and there's no story for the frantic-flag-waving media.

The PD in Portland OR have a pretty sad record too, http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/shootings.html so I don't know that I have much else to add.

 

[SugarQueen]

I still don't see how the Leo thought pulling that close to tamir was a good idea! Once they did that they were sitting ducks and had almost no choice but to react quickly. Had that been a real gunman and not a child with a toy they stood a good chance of dying that day.
I know LE has to make split second decisions but watching that video was horrible!

 

[Margo/Mom]

Margo/Mom
Thanks for further comments, raising an excellent point - your area LE's policy dictates two or + patrol cars to respond to a firearms call. I wonder if that is Cleveland PD's usu policy, and if so, whether dispatch had ordered another vehicle to the scene.

Thx again.

Cleveland PD, according to the recent DOJ review of the prolonged car chase and killing of two un-armed persons reveals that there is something of a gap between policy and behavior. While the officer who fired multiple shots after leaping onto the victim's car hood at the conclusion of that chase got off on a murder charge (owing to the impossibility of determining which of many, many bullets was/were the actual cause of death), there is still the reality that there were all kinds of procedural errors (including far beyond the policy limitation for the number of vehicles involved in the chase--which crossed multiple jurisdictions), the PD as a whole is not off the hook for that one. (not to mention the actual cop who was cleared immediately got into trouble related to alcohol and violence)

Likewise, in the hiring of the killer-cop in the Rice homicide, it would appear as though hiring procedures were likely not followed. Had there been appropriate vetting, it would have been determined that the man had demonstrated a lack of emotional stability overall, and specifically in regards to gun safety issues during LE training in another Ohio jurisdiction.

So--we have two issues. First is the adequacy of the CPD policies, and second is whether the policies are even being followed.

 

[Cubby]

Online activists raised $60K for Tamir Rice’s family — so where did all that money go?

Shaun King was furious.

[...]

So when a new court filing in the Rice family’s civil suit against the city of Cleveland revealed that Tamir has yet to be buried and that his mother was, at least temporarily, living in a homeless shelter, King was incensed.

“Absurd!” he insisted to me in a direct message on Monday afternoon, especially, he noted, because just months earlier an army of online samaritans had raised almost $60,000 for the Rice family.​

Washington Post

The article goes on to say they are no longer homeless and Tamir's mother and her other children moved into a modest apartment in April - where they have been since.


This case breaks my heart.

 

[al66pine]

I still have mixed feelings about the bodycams that some LE are taking to wearing. What about you? They're too easy to defeat, IMO. Not that that would have helped the "assessment" idea we're discussing.
I think part of the problem here is that we're not talking all LEOs, we're not even talking most LEOs. These instances often seem to be with an officer that has a repeated history of questionable shooting incidents. Or a history of some other job-related problems. So in most cases, LE does handle it properly, assesses correctly and acts accordingly, and no one gets hurt and there's no story for the frantic-flag-waving media.
The PD in Portland OR have a pretty sad record too, http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/shootings.html so I don't know that I have much else to add.

La Louvre,
Body cams, yes, you're right re ways LEO's can defeat them. That said, IDK what technology would overcome possibility of an individual LEO making manual override at a convenient (or inconvenient time, depending on point of view). Short of surgically implanting a body cam inside an officer's person like a pacemaker, what are better alternatives ATM?
As you say, body cams w/not have helped much if at all, w the assessment in this case.

I've forgotten detail re this one officer's history w other dept., recall some issue that should or could have raised red flags, poss'ly prevented CPD employment.

As to other PDs, those are other PDs and not part of this Cleveland case w these LEOs.
Is it time to start a different thread for general topic of LEO use of force, deadly & non-deadly, and to discuss training, policy formulation, pre-employment screening, etc.

La Louvre,
Sorry for any causing any offense earlier in asking for more info. Sometimes retired folks forget that some ppl here have RLs w things that get in the way of spending all day here or elsewhere online for fun. Those pesky jobs. Those bothersome children (J/K). Thx for coming back to thread.

 

[MsFacetious]

Judge finds probable cause for murder charge against officer who killed Tamir Rice

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/judge_finds_probable_cause_for.html


Judge Backs Charges Against Cleveland Officers in Killing of Tamir Rice

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...cleveland-officers-killing-tamir-rice-n373931


Stunning Ruling by Cleveland Judge in Death of Tamir Rice

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/stunning-ruling-cleveland-judge-death-tamir-rice-31708672

 

[KaaBoom]

Stunning Ruling by Cleveland Judge in Death of Tamir Rice

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/stunning-ruling-cleveland-judge-death-tamir-rice-31708672

What I'd like to know, is why are they waiting for the grand jury. A judge has already ruled that there is probable cause. The grand jury should be canceled, and they should be charged immediately.

 

[popsicle]

ABC News ‏@ABC [video=twitter;609111977135198208]https://twitter.com/ABC/status/609111977135198208[/video]
Judge advises probable cause exists for charges in Tamir Rice case, but prosecutor says grand jury will decide if officers will be charged.

The judge's ruling is symbolic because he cannot compel prosecutors to charge the officers in the death of Tamir Rice last November.

"This court reaches its conclusions consistent with the facts in evidence and the standard of proof that applies at this time," the judge wrote.

The judge made his ruling after a group of activists submitted affidavits asking the court to charge the officers.

http://abc7.com/news/tamir-rice-shooting-judge-rules-theres-evidence-to-charge-officers/779005/

 

[KEVINinTO]

The Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department on Saturday released an investigation report in the Cleveland police shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice

[video]http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/13/us/tamir-rice-report/index.html[/video]

According to the report the officers did not realize that the 5 foot - 7 , 195 pound Rice was just 12 years old (who can blame them? I've never seen a 12 year old that size!)

Also contrary to the false and misleading media reports Rice was not holding a "toy gun". It was a very realistic Colt 1911 Airsoft Gun which had the orange tip removed. (see below pic).

Description of the gun (from Dicks Sporting Goods)

Product Information:
The Colt® 1911 Airsoft Pistol with Laser allows you to hit your target with precision. The airsoft pistol features an easy slide pump to quickly load your gun and shoots up to a velocity of 230 fps. With a magazine capacity of 13 BBs, the Colt® 1911 has enough accuracy to hit a quarter from 18 feet away.
FEATURES:

Easy slide pump for quick loading
Velocity up to 230 fps
Maximum shooting range up to 66 ft.
Mag capacity of 13 BBs
Accuracy: 18/25: BB can hit a quarter from 18 ft. away
Includes laser sight
Model: 18339
Colt

The report claims there was "no evidence" that officers shouted commands to Rice to drop the gun however I find it inconceivable that they didn't shout commands. This is a standard reflex action for officers when confronted by someone who is holding (or appears to be holding) a weapon.

Under the circumstances I cannot see how criminal charges are warranted in this case. They may have made a tactical error in driving so close to Rice but you can't put them behind bars for a tactical error.

 

[MsFacetious]

They didn't have TIME to shout commands and give him time to follow them. They shot him too fast. :twocents:

 

[KEVINinTO]

More information on the newly released Sheriff's report including copy of the 224 page report and 911 call


http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/911_caller_was_frightened_tami.html

 

[Teresa]

I really don't see how this is going to end well for anyone. They see a teen holding a gun. Are they to assume it is a toy? Or are they to assume danger and protect themselves and potentially others?

I just don't understand why the boy does not drop the gun when he first sees police? I don't know. I am standing by the cops on this one so far. I have to see more, but at this point, all they know is the boy has a gun.
IMO

Twelve is not a teen. Twelve is a child.

 

[KEVINinTO]

Twelve is not a teen. Twelve is a child.

He was twelve going on twenty. From the witness statements from the newly released Sheriff report officers who arrived on the scene after the shooting thought Rice was between 18 and 20 and no wonder - he was close to 200 pounds!

 

[KEVINinTO]

They didn't have TIME to shout commands and give him time to follow them. They shot him too fast. :twocents:

To be sure it was just mere seconds between when the officers exited the cruiser and when shots were fired but I would bet that officers were barking orders to Rice to drop the gun the second they exited the cruiser and they were probably barking these same orders during and after the shooting. It is true they didn't spend a lot of time ordering him to drop the gun. They did not have that luxury. When someone who appears to be 18-20 points what appears to be a real firearm at you - you only have a split second to react. Had that have been a real gun Rice was holding one of those officers was going to wind up dead and it would not matter that Rice was only 12. A child with a gun can kill you just as easily as an adult.

 

[popsicle]

He was twelve going on twenty. From the witness statements from the newly released Sheriff report officers who arrived on the scene after the shooting thought Rice was between 18 and 20 and no wonder - he was close to 200 pounds!

Didn't learn much new except that and this:

Firefighter Patrick Hough, who drove the ambulance that took Tamir to the hospital, said Samaria Rice was "hanging out the door screaming at the officer" about her detained daughter before the ambulance could leave.

She also told Hough "I'll have all your jobs, I'll see all you mother f------ at Pelican Bay," a reference to the 2001 movie about a crooked cop.

Sgt. Janell Rutherford, a police supervisor who went to the scene of the shooting, said she could hear people saying "F the police." She also said she heard Samaria Rice remark "I'm going to have all your jobs, and if you think they got 3 million, just wait!"

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rice_investigation_relea.html

 

[KEVINinTO]

Didn't learn much new except that and this:

Firefighter Patrick Hough, who drove the ambulance that took Tamir to the hospital, said Samaria Rice was "hanging out the door screaming at the officer" about her detained daughter before the ambulance could leave.

She also told Hough "I'll have all your jobs, I'll see all you mother f------ at Pelican Bay," a reference to the 2001 movie about a crooked cop.

Sgt. Janell Rutherford, a police supervisor who went to the scene of the shooting, said she could hear people saying "F the police." She also said she heard Samaria Rice remark "I'm going to have all your jobs, and if you think they got 3 million, just wait!"

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/06/tamir_rice_investigation_relea.html

For me this is what stood out the most from this report (and I read most of it). Also on page 220 an officer testified that she shouted from the rolled-down passenger side window of the Ambulance that she was going to "sue everybody" as her son laid dying a few feet behind her. This same officer claimed that she did not inquire about the condition of her son in the back of the Ambulance. Also note that she refused to cooperate with police in the investigation of her son's death refusing to submit to police interviews (despite giving many media interviews).