Found Deceased OK - Aja Johnson, 7, Geronimo, 24 January 2010 - #3

[kbl8201]

im praying it's animal wounds after her death

 

[kbl8201]

im not blaiming dad. he probably feeling enough guilt as it is.

 

[eyes4crime]

Very well said. Legally she was in the wrong too...she knew what Hobbs had done, what he threatened....she knew the restrictions that the court/Aja's father had imposed...and she brought Aja to this

I don't see any reason to sugarcoat

I doubt we will ever know for sure what happened that night. Hobbs sister invited Tanya and Aja over for a birthday party - turned out to be a family dinner to say goodby to Hobbs who was going to be sent to prison the next morning.

To be honest, don't know exactly what Tanya was told (party or dinner) but to be sure, Hobbs insisted on this get together. He wanted to say his goodbyes! Tanya wasn't expecting to stay the night and didn't bring clothes or Aja's medication.

I've had my doubts all along that Hobbs had this entire evening planned - using his sister to get Aja and Tanya over. Maybe Hobbs threatened Tanya and the life of Aja - we really don't know for sure why she went over to the sister's place. I think Tanya paid for that mistake with her life and her daughter's life - I think she died trying to protect beautiful Aja. moo

I honestly don't see how blaming Tanya changes things. I have no problem assigning blame - little Robert Manwill's mother and her boyfriend are despicable people right along with Casey Anthony, and so many others. Why so many blame mom in all cases here on WS and in other media is beyond me - it would be a great subject for a PHD dissertation. moo

 

[kbl8201]

peoplel blame moms when little girls like amanda runyion end up beat so hard they have to have organs removed...........and all mom does is give her a motrin. people blame moms when kids starve and she wont dont anything cause it would 'upset' her boyfriend (but it doesnt stop her from stuffing her own face)

i only assign blame where it should be......and the fact is that tonya put aja in harms way, and she's dead because of it.

 

[kbl8201]

even if she didnt know he was going to be there, she didnt exactly run when she found out did she?

 

[revampz]

I do feel sorry for this woman....no one deserves to die like this....BUT.....after reading about the tattoos.....mostly being his name and that she was naked and in a bed....I just shake my head........he treated her like s..t..... and yet she went back and slept with him and was obviously finding it hard living without him...

I just dont get these women......they just dont seem to be able to survive without a man.....any man......I am so so much stronger than this and I can honestly say I dont think I know 1 woman who is this weak.....

I do beleive there needs to be some education or talks or something at schools that tells young girls that you dont need to have a man in your life and go back to/live with a man treating you AND specifically your children badly just for the sake of having a man in your life....I do know it is fear of being alone for alot of women but it is not as scary as having these guys in your life...

 

[darlin gal]

I doubt we will ever know for sure what happened that night. Hobbs sister invited Tanya and Aja over for a birthday party - turned out to be a family dinner to say goodby to Hobbs who was going to be sent to prison the next morning.

To be honest, don't know exactly what Tanya was told (party or dinner) but to be sure, Hobbs insisted on this get together. He wanted to say his goodbyes! Tanya wasn't expecting to stay the night and didn't bring clothes or Aja's medication.

I've had my doubts all along that Hobbs had this entire evening planned - using his sister to get Aja and Tanya over. Maybe Hobbs threatened Tanya and the life of Aja - we really don't know for sure why she went over to the sister's place. I think Tanya paid for that mistake with her life and her daughter's life - I think she died trying to protect beautiful Aja. moo

I honestly don't see how blaming Tanya changes things. I have no problem assigning blame - little Robert Manwill's mother and her boyfriend are despicable people right along with Casey Anthony, and so many others. Why so many blame mom in all cases here on WS and in other media is beyond me - it would be a great subject for a PHD dissertation. moo

Tonya lied to J.J., she said she was taking Aja to one of her family members birthday party. She knew where she was going. She did plan on staying overnight if it got to late, she told J.J. that. Aja did have a change of clothes and enough medication to stay overnight.

He said Aja was supposedly going to a family member's birthday party and left with clothes for an overnight stay with her mother.

http://www.kwtv.com/global/story.asp?s=11874548

He said he left her with her mother, who had supervised visitation rights, to go to a birthday party on Friday, and that was the last he had seen her.
"Tonya said if the party went too late that they might stay overnight, so that’s all she had was a pair of clothing for that evening and that day and her medication for that evening and the next morning,” Johnson said.

Alice Dunkin, the mother of Tonya Hobbs, said Tonya, Aja, and Aja’s 13-year-old half-sister Koressa left Friday afternoon to visit Hobbs in Geronimo. Hobbs was worried about a pending court date and wanted to see the girls, Dunkin said.
Koressa was the one who alerted neighbors that something was wrong when she woke up and found her mother’s RV locked and her mother’s car missing. The neighbor discovered Tonya Hobbs’ body and immediately called police.
Dunkin said the 13-year-old is with family friend Roy Anderson in Newcastle.

http://nosufferingfools.lefora.com/...missing-taken-by-stepfather-after-he-k/page2/

 

[Oriah]

In the written report for Aja it says no cut marks on the clothing.

Correct. That was why I mentioned 'underneath' her clothing.

 

[MCDRAW]

peoplel blame moms when little girls like amanda runyion end up beat so hard they have to have organs removed...........and all mom does is give her a motrin. people blame moms when kids starve and she wont dont anything cause it would 'upset' her boyfriend (but it doesnt stop her from stuffing her own face)

i only assign blame where it should be......and the fact is that tonya put aja in harms way, and she's dead because of it.

I really don't like to assign blame in this sort of case but if your going to blame Tonya than you have to also assign some blame to J.J. Tonya had supervised visitation. There was a reason the court ordered ssupervised visitation. The court trusted J.J. to protect Aja. They knew Tonya wasn't trustworthy but they thought J.J. was. Now saying that, My feelings are that Tonya was an abused woman and that messed with her thinking process. As for J.J., I believe he did the best he could and wishes he could go back and keep Aja with him. There was only one monster here. Thats where the real blame goes.JMO

 

[kbl8201]

battered woman syndrome is not a pass to let them hurt your children.

battered women syndrome is usually used when the wife cant take it anymore and kills the guy......

 

[Oriah]

What do you make of the "upper part of left forearm, irregular ends" "There is no rest of the forearm and hand". I take this to mean that the forearm itself was broken. The animal activity I've seen normally separates at the joints instead of breaking bones in sections.

I haven't seen the tox either.

Please all note, this is a graphic discussion.

Sarx, we thought about a break as well (thus my comment on a pre-existing injury to certain areas) because that would be equal to animal activity as a disarticulated joint. Easy to pull apart. But I can't see even a full grown man actually snapping a childs' forearm without twisting as well, and there was no denotation of fracturing higher up her arm that would indicate that sort of break...
The '"cuts vs tears" on the remaining part of her neck still says to me animal activity, as could the irregular end of the forearm. IMO, sometimes larger animals with claws will paw at a victim, especially if they have recently died and/or there is a strong scent of blood or similar at the scene. Certain animals will chase down a live victim and swipe at their neck to bring them down if they are running. The 4-5 'cuts' made me think of both of those things. A larger animal might take down a victim (especially a small child), then tear off a limb, leaving the irregular marks noted on the forearm, as well as the missing forearm. It seems a possibility to me that perhaps Hobbs couldn't bear to see Aja this way, thus covering her.
Then again, considering those particular cuts were on what remained of her neck, I thought perhaps Hobbs had attempted to slit her throat, or succeeded. But there were no weapons found at the scene that I am aware of, so that seems unlikely- however, Hobbs was likely alive after Aja so could have disposed of a weapon. The cuts under Aja's clothing confuse me more. Perhaps they occurred when he killed Tonya.

Aja's other missing parts appear to be disarticulated, which I would attribute to animal activity farther post-mortem, when there had been more time to decomp. Remember the weather that following week- they mummified quickly. Animal activity was likely high post-storm.

I'm wondering if he was in a dementia and/or DT state of withdrawl.
I don't know, I'm no M.E..... but we've seen bodies in a variety of states, including decomp with mold etc vs completely skeletonized. I don't know quite what to make of it, but I would very much like to see the tox on Hobbs. The 'crazy' factor (right down to snapping a forearm in that fashion, imo, would take drug-induced or D/T dementia-induced strength. No bottles or pills found at the scene either.
What are your thoughts on this scenario?

ETA: small animal activity follows larger animal activity. Perhaps that might explain the 'irregular' notation my the M.E. as well, although a break or tear-off mid forearm would still have to exist.

Oriah

 

[LogicalMinds]

I really don't like to assign blame in this sort of case but if your going to blame Tonya than you have to also assign some blame to J.J. Tonya had supervised visitation. There was a reason the court ordered ssupervised visitation. The court trusted J.J. to protect Aja. They knew Tonya wasn't trustworthy but they thought J.J. was. Now saying that, My feelings are that Tonya was an abused woman and that messed with her thinking process. As for J.J., I believe he did the best he could and wishes he could go back and keep Aja with him. There was only one monster here. Thats where the real blame goes.JMO

A tragedy yes...but one easily prevented.

It should be a lesson to all.....people don't change. You can't let your guard down. I am sure the poor dad feels horrible...but let's be honest...he went through all those fights and court battles and then he turns around and does the opposite??

It is a huge mistake to think that people are going to change. It is a huge mistake to think of anything "just this once" or "just until"

One problem is that "good" people tend to think that "bad' people are going to somehow get better...they usually don't.

Here is an "old fable" that I really appreciate :


THE LADY AND THE SNAKE

It was really cold and a nice lady had a warm blanket. A poisonous snake nearby was shivering and begged the lady just to pick him up long enough for him to get warm. She resisted saying "you are a poisonous snake and you will bite me and I'll die!" He begged and pleaded and promised not to bite her so she finally gave in and picked him up and wrapped him in the blanket. He bit her and as she was laying there dying she asked "why did you bite me - you promised you wouldn't?" As he slithered away he looked back and said:
"Lady you knew I was a snake when you picked me up

 

[Oriah]

I think the best opportunity lies in educating and convincing the "other" parent not to stray from what they know is the right thing to do. This is not the first or last case where this has happened. This is the parent that we have a chance at getting through to. The parent who has custody because they and the law knew that the child would be in danger if they were with the other parent. These are the parents that need to hold fast and not give in, the ones that need to understand that it only takes one unsupervised visit for things to go horribly wrong. These are the ones we need to reach out to.

I agree. I don't like it because it cripples and kills thousands of women and children every year, and I don't like it because I cannot imagine putting ANY child in danger. But it is well-recognized in the mental health community. Many people feel differently- such as they do about PTSD. Many people believe that simply because three people can experience similar trauma and one will go and shoot random people at a mall, while the other will instead turn their experience into something positive, and yet another will commit suicide...that all is equal. It is not.

Whatever the learned behavior is, it is still no excuse for allowing yourself or another to terrorize, injure, or kill another human being...ever. But it does hold value in understanding how these tragedies occur- and therefore it holds value in us helping to prevent them to begin with. Educate yourselves. Educate your children. Educate your community. Stand up for people who may not be as strong as you are, or who you simply cannot understand. IMO, that's the only way things will change.

And before I get slammed for this- please remember that the single most important aspect of this case was Aja. There are many types of innocent victims in this world, in many different ways, and through many different means. I don't believe there are many mothers or fathers in this world who would would like to be brutally murdered knowing that their child is likely to follow.

Whether we understand it or not- it happens, and it happens every single second of every day.

Oriah

 

[Oriah]

A tragedy yes...but one easily prevented.

It should be a lesson to all.....people don't change. You can't let your guard down. I am sure the poor dad feels horrible...but let's be honest...he went through all those fights and court battles and then he turns around and does the opposite??

It is a huge mistake to think that people are going to change. It is a huge mistake to think of anything "just this once" or "just until"

One problem is that "good" people tend to think that "bad' people are going to somehow get better...they usually don't.

Here is an "old fable" that I really appreciate :


THE LADY AND THE SNAKE

It was really cold and a nice lady had a warm blanket. A poisonous snake nearby was shivering and begged the lady just to pick him up long enough for him to get warm. She resisted saying "you are a poisonous snake and you will bite me and I'll die!" He begged and pleaded and promised not to bite her so she finally gave in and picked him up and wrapped him in the blanket. He bit her and as she was laying there dying she asked "why did you bite me - you promised you wouldn't?" As he slithered away he looked back and said:
"Lady you knew I was a snake when you picked me up

LogicalMinds, I understand and appreciate what you're saying. But I respectfully disagree that 'bad people' can't or don't usually change. I think I would have to give up on life entirely if I adopted that philosphy. And I'm not ready to go there yet.

I just think we haven't mastered the way to HELP them change yet.

JMHO.

Oriah

I do agree that constant vigilence is necessary.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Well....some bad people can change I grant you

People who are alcoholics and addicts can and do "recover' with the 12 steps

however...most of us in a dire situation like this one are NOT in a position to judge if someone has changed

There was NOTHING in this case to say that Hobbs had changed
In fact he was on his way to prison...a time of stress and a time when people are more likely to flip out

T apparently had the battered woman syndrome....her choice..too bad she dragged poor Aja into it. Let's be honest here....they had lawyers, judges, hearings...the court order was in place for a reason....there is ample evidence that Aja was hurt badly by Hobbs before..she should never have been exposed to him

There was also ample reason to never let Tonya alone with Aja since for whatever her own sick reasons she apparently could not grasp that a snake like Hobbs was not going to change.

Maybe years of sobriety along with psychiatric help and intense anger management courses would have made this jerk acceptable to be around ...and even then I would be watching my back

the court order was in place for a reason....T had placed Aja in danger before....Hobbs was a violent man....there were real reason to follow that court order....if T wasn't "together" enough to follow it, then others should have imposed it

Aja is the one who paid the price IMHO

 

[sarx]

Logicalminds
I'm not sure how alcoholics and addicts automatically qualify as "bad people"???

Oriah
Did investigator look at prints in the area? Did they look for the missing forearm and hand? Often they have been dragged off, but aren't that far away. Did the bring in HRD dogs to find the missing parts?
I agree completely that animals due an incredible amount of damage. I'm not familiar with what kinds of large predators would likely be in the area? A good tracker should be able to tell LE what's been there.
I don't know why the arm thing stuck with me, but it did, just something in my gut. Completely agree that in a rage he couldn't have snapped it like a toothpick. I'm not sure if Hobbs would have even needed alcohol to go there, he was just a vicious violent man.
I know that they haven't found a weapon, have they really looked? He certainly could have killed her and then taken a long walk to "cool off" disposed of it and then come back.
If there was enough left to tell cuts vs tears should they not also be able to tell if it was animal made?
After this case and the other two I've been reading involving OSBI I am more skeptical than ever that things are being done properly so I find myself question more than normal (which is a whole lot to start with).

 

[Oriah]

Well....some bad people can change I grant you

People who are alcoholics and addicts can and do "recover' with the 12 steps

however...most of us in a dire situation like this one are NOT in a position to judge if someone has changed

There was NOTHING in this case to say that Hobbs had changed
In fact he was on his way to prison...a time of stress and a time when people are more likely to flip out

T apparently had the battered woman syndrome....her choice..too bad she dragged poor Aja into it. Let's be honest here....they had lawyers, judges, hearings...the court order was in place for a reason....there is ample evidence that Aja was hurt badly by Hobbs before..she should never have been exposed to him

There was also ample reason to never let Tonya alone with Aja since for whatever her own sick reasons she apparently could not grasp that a snake like Hobbs was not going to change.

Maybe years of sobriety along with psychiatric help and intense anger management courses would have made this jerk acceptable to be around ...and even then I would be watching my back

the court order was in place for a reason....T had placed Aja in danger before....Hobbs was a violent man....there were real reason to follow that court order....if T wasn't "together" enough to follow it, then others should have imposed it

Aja is the one who paid the price IMHO

Perhaps this is where we disagree. I don't believe that a true 'battered women syndrome' is..."a choice."

My point was simply to say that Aja in fact was the most innocent victim of this tragedy (of which there were many) as most of these cases are. If I chose to believe that change was impossible- in the line of work that I do, and given the life I have led.... I would lose all hope entirely. And that will NOT help me find the next child caught up in a series of tragedies.
And so, I do not chose to believe that.

I much prefer to believe that the child we pull out of a 47 degree body of water after 20 minutes underwater will live again, and fully recover. I have seen it happen. I choose instead to believe that there are women like Tonya who do seek the help they need- or that help finds them first- and their childs' life is saved because of it, or their own is saved because of it. I have seen it happen. I choose to believe that there are men like Hobbs that can recover, and that there are men like Hobbs that cannot recover. I have seen both.

Quite honestly, I do not ever choose to give up on hope, because despite all of the evil in this world, I have seen the scales tip far too many times toward kindness and recovery to believe that ANYTHING is impossible.

Oriah

 

[Oriah]

http://www.koco.com/news/23077970/detail.html

For just a moment here before we continue discussion, can everyone take a moment to remember this beautiful child, caught in a storm of destruction?
Thank you.
Oriah

 

[darlin gal]

Correct. That was why I mentioned 'underneath' her clothing.

Where in the exam notes/pictures are you finding cuts underneath her clothing?

The only cuts I see mentioned are on the neck where it mentions "cuts vs tears".

 

[Oriah]

Logicalminds
I'm not sure how alcoholics and addicts automatically qualify as "bad people"???

Oriah
Did investigator look at prints in the area? Did they look for the missing forearm and hand? Often they have been dragged off, but aren't that far away. Did the bring in HRD dogs to find the missing parts?
I agree completely that animals due an incredible amount of damage. I'm not familiar with what kinds of large predators would likely be in the area? A good tracker should be able to tell LE what's been there.
I don't know why the arm thing stuck with me, but it did, just something in my gut. Completely agree that in a rage he couldn't have snapped it like a toothpick. I'm not sure if Hobbs would have even needed alcohol to go there, he was just a vicious violent man.
I know that they haven't found a weapon, have they really looked? He certainly could have killed her and then taken a long walk to "cool off" disposed of it and then come back.
If there was enough left to tell cuts vs tears should they not also be able to tell if it was animal made?
After this case and the other two I've been reading involving OSBI I am more skeptical than ever that things are being done properly so I find myself question more than normal (which is a whole lot to start with).

sarx,
I can't answer all your questions, but I'll do the best I can to answer what I know. They did appear to print the vehicle and removed it (finally) from the scene. I have no idea how well they printed it. There are large predatory animals in the area, although not frequently seen in the more touristy locations of LT. They did take out tracking dogs. I have no idea on the HRD dogs- my understanding was that Comanche county does not have any but the OSBI has a couple contracted out; but I strongly suspect they did NOT grid search that area, because otherwise our dogs would have been hitting on them. I don't think they looked real hard once they decided Hobbs killed both himself and Aja. 3 weeks earlier we had private tracking and HRD dogs out in the same area-which, albeit is huge- no hits. We went back three times during that time period. I fully agree that missing limbs/bone due to animal activity is usually close to the scene. I cannot imagine how those would not have been recovered with a careful grid search and an HRD dog. We were not allowed anywhere near the scene after the discovery.

I agree that if the distinction between tears and cuts was made than it should point to the direction of animal vs.human- ditto on the 'irregular' edges. I mean- we once found a skeletonized foot with what the M.E. determined was 'irregular' edges and assummed it had been hacked off with some sort of saw (because that was the presumed idea at the time.) It turned out to be crabs, after the disarticulated foot had been dragged off by a larger animal.

I am frustrated by the lack of cohesiveness of this entire search (and case in general) re: the OSBI, AND the US Marshals (despite the fact that they are our friends!) They had the ability and the resources to find Aja and Hobbs much earlier and could have overridden both Comanche and OSBI- as well as the feds that showed.

Please note again everyone, before I get blasted for THIS post- that we are VERY pro LE. Just finished our daily three hour refresher course that runs all week here.

But something is very wrong in Oklahoma.

Oriah