OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

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Here is an article on a murder-suicide. The detectives stated that these two deaths were not thought to involve foul play even though one person killed his/her spouse before committing suicide. See the last paragraph. Foul play would be considered to involve a third party.
http://www.examiner.com/article/murder-suicide-essex
 
Murder-suicide involves murder, so yes, it is foul play. At this point, it's hard to know why LE doesn't suspect foul play. I hope it's not just them not wanting to bother investigating, though.

Re: the family member's statement, I don't see anything wrong or inappropriate about it. I found it interesting that he said it brings "a closure," and not just "closure." That, to me, indicates he is saying that they've gotten a big answer--they're not somewhere out there, living some other life away from family, they're dead. That is a certain measure of closure, when you've been living with a disappearance for so long. But it's certainly not total closure because you still don't know what happened. Also, it seems pretty understandable that he believed they were dead, since there had been no trace of them all this time.

Also, saying that they don't suspect foul play, doesn't mean that they won't determine otherwise, once the autopsy results come through. It could just be that there was nothing at the scene to suggest foul play, ie., no bullet holes or obvious signs of injury on the bones.
 
This is my question, snipped>


The Jamisons planned to leave their nice lakeside home and buy a plot of land in the mountains and live in metal shipping containers. They wanted to get away from it all. But why? They had a beautiful home. They had several time shares around the US and Mexico. The had newer vehicles and lived well above their means of social security disablilty."

http://keepthesearchalive.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/missing-jamison-family/

Neither worked, both on disability. Where did the $$ come from? $32,000 cash? Late model cars? Lakeside home?
It came from the insurance settlement from Bobby's accident which left him disabled and unable to work.
 
I'm curious about the possibility of the Jamison's getting lost and dying from exposure. IF they did get lost, and considering the weirdness of them on the surveillence video walking back and forth, as well as all the other strange behavior, would their remains have been found close together, as i'm assuming they were, be probable? What I'm trying to ask is, would they have been able to all stay together after who knows how long, lost and wandering, only to all lay down and die close to each other? Would it be more likely that if they did get lost, they could have gotten seperated from each other? I don't believe they wandered around and got lost, or that there was a murder-suicide, or a suicide pact. I believe that they were murdered. I also find the comments from Bobby's Uncle Jack um, 'interesting' to say the least.

Quote:"It brings a closure," said Jack Jamison, Bobby Jamison's uncle. "Not knowing - especially the little girl - she did nothing to cause something like that. It brings closure. That's about all I can say. It's sad. It's about what we expected."

While it's not yet definitive that the remains are his nephew and his family, all evidence points to it being them, said Jack Jamison, who was contacted by the FBI about the discovery. He said he had no hope the family was still alive four years later, and he believed that foul play had to be involved.

Also, in same article, this:

"A spokeswoman for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner said Monday that the office has received skeletal remains of two adults and one child. The office will use anthropological and, if necessary, forensic pathological methods to determine if the remains belong to Bobby Jamison, who was 44 when he went missing, and his wife, Sherilyn Jamison, who was 40 at the time of the disappearance, and their 6-year-old daughter, Madyson.

"Depending on the features of these remains and their state of preservation, identification can take anywhere from days to years," spokeswoman Amy Elliott said in a statement."

http://www.njherald.com/story/24002376/found-remains-could-belong-to-missing-okla-family

The statement from the spokeswoman, Amy Elliot saying it could take years to identify the remains strikes me as a way to close down any inquiries into the investigation, or non-investigation into the Jamison case. Surely they know whether these remains are them or not. I think it is the Jamison's, and find this statement more than a little disturbing to say the least! What's up with that? As for Uncle Jack, well, that's one curious statement to make! The Jamison's haven't even been officially identified yet, and even given the logical conclusion that these are the Jamison's, I find his response one of someone who just wants this to go away. How can there be so called 'closure' at this stage? If anything, this is just the beginning of what is supposed to be an investigation into just what happened to the Jamison's! I find these two statements by Amy Elliot and Uncle Jack Jamison quite unsettling, worrisome and very disturbing.
 
Murder-suicide involves murder, so yes, it is foul play.
Here is another article about a murder-suicide where LE stated that no foul play was suspected even though one spouse killed the other before committing suicide:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/jehovahs-witnesses-couple-died-murder-suicide




At this point, it's hard to know why LE doesn't suspect foul play. I hope it's not just them not wanting to bother investigating, though.

Re: the family member's statement, I don't see anything wrong or inappropriate about it. I found it interesting that he said it brings "a closure," and not just "closure." That, to me, indicates he is saying that they've gotten a big answer--they're not somewhere out there, living some other life away from family, they're dead. That is a certain measure of closure, when you've been living with a disappearance for so long. But it's certainly not total closure because you still don't know what happened. Also, it seems pretty understandable that he believed they were dead, since there had been no trace of them all this time.

Also, saying that they don't suspect foul play, doesn't mean that they won't determine otherwise, once the autopsy results come through. It could just be that there was nothing at the scene to suggest foul play, ie., no bullet holes or obvious signs of injury on the bones.
My post is in green.
 
I don't find anything that the spokeswoman said to be offensive. She's right. It can take years to identify skeletal remains. There are some skeletal remains out there that have NEVER been identified, decades later. It's also quite possible they won't be able to determine a cause of death. And if the bodies weren't buried, which would be an indicator of homicide, then they may never be able to determine manner of death either.

I already said above why I don't think the family member's statement is strange, but I would emphasize again that he said it brings "a closure," not "closure." This is some measure of closure, as far as knowing they aren't alive anymore. I think for the families of the missing, that is "a closure."
 
Here is another article about a murder-suicide where LE stated that no foul play was suspected even though one spouse killed the other before committing suicide:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/jehovahs-witnesses-couple-died-murder-suicide





My post is in green.

I saw your post after I posted mine. That is not my experience with LE, though. Murder-suicide is foul play. Maybe the detective in that case, and in this case, are just being careless with words.
 
Actually, only the headline says no foul play was suspected. There is nothing attributed to the police using those words. They just ruled out anyone else being involved in the deaths.

EXACTLY! No one else was suspected of being involved in the deaths, so no foul play was suspected. (No one outside of the Bobby, Sherilyn and their child were involved in their deaths, so no foul play was suspected.)

Here is another example of a murder-suicide from Texas where no foul play was suspected.
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/22597340/plano-pd-investigating-potential-murder-suicide
 
I should add, I think murder-suicide is certainly a possibility in this case. I work in the legal system, in both the criminal justice side, and the mental health side. And I agree with you, Pensfan, that it is hard to try to apply logic to the behavior of delusional and suicidal people. Their brains just don't work that way. And I have had a client who I met with one day, and who seemed in great spirits, and we talked about future plans going forward, and all seemed fine, and he killed himself the next day. I know the emotions of severely depressed and bipolar individuals, especially when untreated, can be quite volatile. I just hope that a thorough investigation and forensic examination is done in this case before making any determination.
 
EXACTLY! No one else was suspected of being involved in the deaths, so no foul play was suspected. (No one outside of the Bobby, Sherilyn and their child were involved in their deaths, so no foul play was suspected.)

Here is another example of a murder-suicide from Texas where no foul play was suspected.
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/22597340/plano-pd-investigating-potential-murder-suicide

You are linking these articles and saying the police are using the term, "No foul play suspected" when they were murder-suicides, and that is just not the case. The third and fourth articles you linked contained no such statements from the police. One was just the headline--not a police statement. The other never used the words "foul play" anywhere. So, I don't see how this proves that LE generally doesn't consider a murder-suicide to be "foul play."

Maybe LE in this case is not considering it foul play, but murder is foul play. It doesn't make it not foul play just because you kill yourself, too.
 
Here is an article on a murder-suicide. The detectives stated that these two deaths were not thought to involve foul play even though one person killed his/her spouse before committing suicide. See the last paragraph. Foul play would be considered to involve a third party.
http://www.examiner.com/article/murder-suicide-essex

Hmm, the murder part of murder-suicide seems pretty foul to me!

But, yes, it may be that, in the minds of some LE, foul play excludes murder-suicide. (After all, it is not prosecutable.) That definition could provide an explanation here.

Empty pain pill bottles at the site, maybe? Just another possibility.

Not that I am convinced yet that "foul play" was not involved.
 
I am completely on the same page as Mtrooper.

Since there is nothing I can do personally, I will keep the Jamison family in my thoughts and try to remember that at least they were together.
 
Not spot-on to the question at hand, but still kinda interesting -- bold italic emphasis is mine:

How Do Police Rule Out Foul Play?

...After concluding the investigation, the medical examiner submits a report to police. That report will not, however, include the phrase foul play. Medical examiners only recognize five manners of death: accident, suicide, homicide, natural and undetermined. Likewise, real-life detectives rarely use the phrase amongst themselves. Some police departments like to say foul play when communicating with the public, precisely because it’s so vague. Words like homicide or murder are much more startling, and the latter entails a legal judgment, too....

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._death_how_do_police_rule_out_foul_play_.html
 
@Backwoods---Yes, it's very foul.

Apparently to LE "no foul play" in murder-suicides means that LE doesn't suspect that a third party was involved.

Here's another example:
http://www.ksla.com/story/10025432/suspected-murder-suicide-in-orange-tx

This does make me wonder, though -- suppose someone makes a murder-suicide attempt -- and the murder part succeeds but the suicide part, while causing grievous injury, fails. I wonder if LE would then characterize the murder as foul play?

A little off-topic, sorry, but my mind went there.
 
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