OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

[OkieGranny]

No, wondered that myself. That made me wonder how far is there home from where they disappeared. They lived in Eufaula right?

Well, yeah, they were only about 60 or 70 miles from home, about an hour and a half or two hours away. Probably just went home and came back out the next day.

I found their house on the east side of the lake, on Jolly Mom Avenue. There's a Jolly Dad Avenue too. How weird.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I believe the church they attended was in Muskogee. I could be wrong but, to the best of my recollection, I'm pretty sure that's what I read.

The closest I could find was Tulsa and Fort Smith, AR. I wonder if it isn't something else.

 

[Solitaryone]

Any idea where they stayed overnight?

It's been a long time since I read through the threads! But I had read they visited the area two days in a row. Didn't they go home after the first day? What was the date of the video of them walking back and forth from house to vehicle? I think after the first day, they went home and returned to the area the next day.

 

[OkieGranny]

The closest I could find was Tulsa and Fort Smith, AR. I wonder if it isn't something else.

Ah, mtrooper said this in Thread #4:

As far as the church goes...They went to the Seventh Day Adventist church in Eufaula. It is a fairly new group that has started meeting and having bible study. The Muskogee branch is the "mother church". They go to Muskogee for Sabbath, and gatherings.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muskogee-Seventh-day-Adventist-Church/321456176645

I should add that the only place I've seen Vineyard connected with the Jamisons was on that video, in what looked like some kind of written statement from someone who knew them.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Ah, mtrooper said this in Thread #4:



https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muskogee-Seventh-day-Adventist-Church/321456176645

I should add that the only place I've seen Vineyard connected with the Jamisons was on that video, in what looked like some kind of written statement from someone who knew them.

They wouldn't be close, in practice.

I was thinking if it might refer to this parable:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20:1-16

A church were a latecomer enjoyed the benefits.

 

[eya]

No. Neither a manner or cause of death has been released. LE has been quoted as saying they did not suspect foul play at this time.

do we even have an official ID yet?

 

[eya]

it's the differences that tell the story: the McStays are perceived as a traditional middle class California family whose disappearance from the safety of their home led to speculation about many things, including business matters - things with which most can (safely) identify.

As J.J. in Phila points out, it's also true that CA is a populous state and Oklahoma is not - OK is a flyover state, while Cali is sexy. That itself, along with the above, guaranteed the press would stay on the McStay case and keep it front and center. To me, none of the details above matter - no matter what the Jamisons were, where they lived, or how they met their ends, none of this should detract from the fact that, somehow, a family of three died cruel deaths. Yes, the Jamisons, of Eufuala OK, should be given, here especially, equal billing with the McStay family of southern California.

and yet, even as a CA native, I find the Jamison case much more compelling.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

and yet, even as a CA native, I find the Jamison case much more compelling.

This story is almost a archetypical Southern Gothic story, with the madness, and/or a supernatural element (depending on your viewpoint).

 

[Hatfield]

Just some other thoughts to consider....

I know its strange that their cell phones and such were found in vehicle. But if they were just looking around and not planning to be gone too long, they may have locked them and the dog in the truck. If the dog was one of the types that would run around and not be controllable, I could see them locking the dog in truck.

One reason I keep worrying about people getting lost is from personal experiences. There is a small wooded lot that I used to live near, and every time I would go back there, I would get "semi-lost" almost immediately. It was amazing to me how quickly I would get all confused and not really know which way was which. The feeling of panic sets in very quickly when in the woods. Especially if you had a child and wife with you, and they realized you were lost, it would compound the problem, as they would start to panic with you.

Another time, I was with someone hiking once and we got lost for awhile. Two or more people being lost is worse IMO than being lost myself because we quickly had differing opionions on which way to go. Things got real heated between the 2 of us because we both "knew" which way to get out....LOL

We obviously need more information on what was found with the bodies to help us understand what may have happened. I am not outruling getting lost at this point.
I think it was reported early on that rainstorms were in the area around the time of their disappearance. If they tried to get away from lightning, they may have ran further in the woods and could have gotten really turned around real quick.

Also, it is a known fact that when people are lost, they will sometimes walk in circles. There are different views on why this happens, but the best answer I have come to agree with is that 1 foot usually is a dominant foot, and that will cause you to walk in a large circle.

If you are lost and get saddened and lose hope, can you imagine how terrible the feeling after walking for an hour or so, and you finally come to that very large forked tree you recognized an hour ago, and you realize you are back where you were. That sort of thing happens when lost and it compounds the despair.

Again, we dont know what happened yet, and I am anxious to read here and learn more about the new information. Hopefully , the OSBI will release some more details about what was found with the bodies. That will help us for sure.

 

[Pensfan]

I really feel kind of hesitant to delve into this discussion and would like y'all to understand up front that I don't want to knock anyone's religious beliefs. I'm very firmly attached to my own and respect everyone else's right to believe whatever they choose, as long as the practice of their beliefs doesn't hurt anyone but themselves. And preferably not even themselves.

Okay, so the Vineyard Movement. It's not a bad thing in and of itself, but you know how people can take a thing and run with it? So you have Baptists and extreme Baptists, Mormons and extreme Mormons, etc, etc, and so on down the line. Just some examples, not knocking anybody. So here's a basic overview, Wikipedia version:

Association of Vineyard Churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It describes the Vineyard Movement as "a neocharismatic evangelical Christian denomination... rooted in the charismatic renewal and historic evangelicalism. Instead of the mainstream charismatic label, however, the movement has preferred the term Empowered Evangelicals... to reflect their roots in traditional evangelicalism as opposed to classical Pentecostalism. Members also sometimes describe themselves as the "radical middle" between evangelicals and Pentecostals..."

And here's a non-Vineyarder's story of visiting a Vineyard church in 1995 and again six years later:

http://faithinconsistent.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/the-vineyard-will-deliver-you/



Obviously, having never visited the Jamisons' church, I cannot say how it compares. But there are extreme sects in just about every denomination, and Oklahoma has certainly been fertile ground for them.

My own upbringing was in a very prim and proper white-glove Presbyterian church but, as a teenager, I did occasionally visit a Pentecostal church with friends, and that place totally blew my young mind. It was just a very, very different style of worship than I was accustomed to.

Coming from the religious training I've had, if I heard someone talking about demons and spirits on the roof and whatnot and being perfectly serious about it, I'd be reaching for the phone to call a mental health hotline. But someone else, of a different background, might find such topics of conversation absolutely normal. And I'm thinking, to the Jamisons, that sort of conversation might have been completely ordinary, and not necessarily a sign of mental illness.

bbm
I’m Russian Orthodox and an old psych nurse. The Eastern Orthodox Church (Greek, Russian, Serbian, Romanian, Georgian. Antiochian, Bulgarian, Ukranian, Albanian) has changed very little since its origin 2000 years ago. We sing an 1800-year-old liturgy and retain all our ancient practices including exorcism.

In someone who is psychotic, there isn’t only a belief in religious topics and demons, Psychotic people have changes in behaviors, perceptions, concentration, social contact, and emotions. They frequently refuse to accept help and may try to hide their odd beliefs.

The Jamisons had other unusual beliefs and behaviors besides their belief in the four demons on their roof. This behavior coupled with Sherilyn's bipolar diagnosis is a giant red flag for untreated mental illness, One example: They were living in metal storage container in the driveway of their nice home. This was in Oklahoma where summer temperatures are frequently above 100 degrees and the winters can be dangerously cold with Oklahoma’s continuous wind.

University studies have found that > 20% of psychotic behavior involves religious overtones. Religious overtones also occur in psychotic people who have never practiced any religion.

Pensfan
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[Hatfield]

Apologies for any confusion with my post - am looking at maps upside down remember.

I typed my location request into google maps 35.006097,-95.200653 (location according to the Blackberry phone).

Google maps then took control of my request and changed it – note the difference +35°0'21.95", -95°12'2.35" This second GPS coordinate is the physical location of the truck.

I then requested get directions from +35°0'21.95", -95°12'2.35” (location of the truck) to 35.006097,-95.200653 (the original number I put in - ghosted in the phone) and the map connects the location of the truck with Smokestack Hollow.

Is this a gremlin in GPS technology? Probably. So my conspiracy theory goes out the window. Interesting coincidence though I have to say.

Since it was reported he was using GPS coordinates to find the property, he may have experienced similar issues with the coordinates getting auto-changed on him.

 

[dranders4]

GPS is an interesting system.... the main latitude and longitude are usually the same but after that it is all in the details....

Taking that into consideration and the fact that most on-line mapping tools will 'default' to the local road can make property lines..etc harder to locate.

The video indeed shows GPS coordinates, if you look carefully you will notice they are noted as:

NE corner 95* 11' 51.4176 W & 35* 00' 25.7040 N This is noted in GGS84 standard ( GPS )

That location is 95.17962 & 35.00714 when converted to latitude/longitude decimal. ( default for most internet mapping tools )

So be careful with your mapping skills when installing a new fence on the neighbor's property! ! ! !

The most interesting and relevant point to this posting is the video appears to have a letter from the second property owner detailing the GPS coordinates that were given to the Jamisons. In the sentences above the coordinates there is reference to this as an optional property....etc

Missing Jamison Family - YouTube ( timer at 1:50 )

In other media coverage there have been pictures of the contents of the truck and in looking closely, one can see the same GPS coordinates noted on the pad of paper.

http://newsok.com/eufaula-familys-fate-remains-mystery/article/3458228

It makes sense these were noted and followed to the well site where the truck was found.

NE 35.00714 -95.19762
NW 35.00713 -95.20201
SW 35.00349 -95.20199
SE 35.00351 -95.19760

I have been attempting to look at tax records to determine what additional property that is 'north of the well site' that was also owned by the party that provided the well site coordinates... no luck so far... but the search continues.... IF that parcel can be determined we could assume how far up the hill the Jamisons were intending on exploring that fateful day !

 

[Solitaryone]

Just some other thoughts to consider....

I know its strange that their cell phones and such were found in vehicle. But if they were just looking around and not planning to be gone too long, they may have locked them and the dog in the truck. If the dog was one of the types that would run around and not be controllable, I could see them locking the dog in truck.

One reason I keep worrying about people getting lost is from personal experiences. There is a small wooded lot that I used to live near, and every time I would go back there, I would get "semi-lost" almost immediately. It was amazing to me how quickly I would get all confused and not really know which way was which. The feeling of panic sets in very quickly when in the woods. Especially if you had a child and wife with you, and they realized you were lost, it would compound the problem, as they would start to panic with you.

Another time, I was with someone hiking once and we got lost for awhile. Two or more people being lost is worse IMO than being lost myself because we quickly had differing opionions on which way to go. Things got real heated between the 2 of us because we both "knew" which way to get out....LOL

We obviously need more information on what was found with the bodies to help us understand what may have happened. I am not outruling getting lost at this point.
I think it was reported early on that rainstorms were in the area around the time of their disappearance. If they tried to get away from lightning, they may have ran further in the woods and could have gotten really turned around real quick.

Also, it is a known fact that when people are lost, they will sometimes walk in circles. There are different views on why this happens, but the best answer I have come to agree with is that 1 foot usually is a dominant foot, and that will cause you to walk in a large circle.

If you are lost and get saddened and lose hope, can you imagine how terrible the feeling after walking for an hour or so, and you finally come to that very large forked tree you recognized an hour ago, and you realize you are back where you were. That sort of thing happens when lost and it compounds the despair.

Again, we dont know what happened yet, and I am anxious to read here and learn more about the new information. Hopefully , the OSBI will release some more details about what was found with the bodies. That will help us for sure.

Thank's Hatfield and all who have recounted their stories of becoming lost in wooded areas! I would like to ask all here their opinions on the Jamison's perhaps getting lost. Given what has been reported about the Jamison's, if they had gotten lost and disoriented in the woods, is it likely they would have died close to one another, or would they have gotten seperated? While I'm beginning to consider them getting lost and dying from the elements, I'm still leaning toward foul play in this case. Any opinions regarding the Jamison's getting lost, and how they may have reacted if faced with this will be helpful to me in considering various scenarios.

However way the Jamison's met their end, I can't imagine which scenario is worse. Both are horrifying. While I certainly hope they weren't murdered, wandering lost, cold and disoriented for who knows how long, and in what condition each were in, isn't much better. Poor Madyson!

RIP Jamison family.

 

[SeekingJana]

Although we do not have a COD or methods of death yet, one of the things which I go back to is that a child will succumb to dehydration, hunger, extreme temperatures and other stressors quicker than a healthy adult will. ( I do not know if the Jamison adults could be classified as " healthy" but they were ambulatory on the mountains).

I do not have links to back up my knowledge base of Pediatrics, but I do absolutely know that all things being equal, a 6 yr. old child would have been the first to become dangerously dehydrated and hungry, and IF their deaths were from natural causes, then I can see why the adult Jamisons who might also be having physical and emotional stressors, would stay with Madyson.

I can look for links if needed. Children also succumb to burns, CO poisoning and smoke inhalation faster than adults.

The case is very sad to me because it was preventable for a very long time. IF they had received support in the form of good mental health care, including a mental health professional who stressed adherence to medications for Bi- Polar disorder and monitored Sherilyn's compliance, possibly drug treatment for one or both parents, a therapist for Madyson, and financial counseling, they could have gotten their lives back on track and they would not have needed to consider living in the middle of nowhere in a shipping container in the first place.
I don't think the little girl's smile looks natural in the video, either, as the grandmother said, but I didn't know her.

This is the only case I've ever known of where a LE officer comes out and says " They were meth. users" without arrest records and convictions, if the cases had progressed to trials, to back up the assertions. I think this is the main reason their case has not attracted more MSM attention. Considering what the sheriff put out there about them, it might be just as well that it is not receiving extensive coverage.
And I thought Texas had some dumb sheriff departments!

 

[Soulmagent]

GPS is an interesting system.... the main latitude and longitude are usually the same but after that it is all in the details....

Taking that into consideration and the fact that most on-line mapping tools will 'default' to the local road can make property lines..etc harder to locate.

The video indeed shows GPS coordinates, if you look carefully you will notice they are noted as:

NE corner 95* 11' 51.4176 W & 35* 00' 25.7040 N This is noted in GGS84 standard ( GPS )

That location is 95.17962 & 35.00714 when converted to latitude/longitude decimal. ( default for most internet mapping tools )

So be careful with your mapping skills when installing a new fence on the neighbor's property! ! ! !

The most interesting and relevant point to this posting is the video appears to have a letter from the second property owner detailing the GPS coordinates that were given to the Jamisons. In the sentences above the coordinates there is reference to this as an optional property....etc

Missing Jamison Family - YouTube ( timer at 1:50 )

In other media coverage there have been pictures of the contents of the truck and in looking closely, one can see the same GPS coordinates noted on the pad of paper.

http://newsok.com/eufaula-familys-fate-remains-mystery/article/3458228

It makes sense these were noted and followed to the well site where the truck was found.

NE 35.00714 -95.19762
NW 35.00713 -95.20201
SW 35.00349 -95.20199
SE 35.00351 -95.19760

I have been attempting to look at tax records to determine what additional property that is 'north of the well site' that was also owned by the party that provided the well site coordinates... no luck so far... but the search continues.... IF that parcel can be determined we could assume how far up the hill the Jamisons were intending on exploring that fateful day !

Should we be able to see the bodies on google earth?
I believe I spotted white sneakers.

I was using a pc with windows 8 and thought I saw what looked like shoes. I enlarged it and then took a photo with a galaxy 3 and I just wondering if what I saw or see is correct.

Has anyone else thought they have seen this?

 

[Elainera]

Should we be able to see the bodies on google earth?
I believe I spotted white sneakers.

I was using a pc with windows 8 and thought I saw what looked like shoes. I enlarged it and then took a photo with a galaxy 3 and I just wondering if what I saw or see is correct.

Has anyone else thought they have seen this?

Can you link it?

 

[Soulmagent]

Can you link it?

I think so. I am trying. Then I gotta pull up the map that it came from.

 

[Inana]

Should we be able to see the bodies on google earth?
I believe I spotted white sneakers.

I was using a pc with windows 8 and thought I saw what looked like shoes. I enlarged it and then took a photo with a galaxy 3 and I just wondering if what I saw or see is correct.

Has anyone else thought they have seen this?

What coordinates did you see this? And thanks.

 

[Soulmagent]

This is the enlarged image I pulled from this map. However I think they are boot soles I am seeing . Or I am once again being haunted by the photo phantoms.


https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=218199748434644937742.0004eb77c94859bad1f03&msa=0&ll=35.026201,-95.208378&spn=0.093199,0.15707&dg=feature

 

[Soulmagent]

What coordinates did you see this? And thanks.

I don't know. but I will find it.

ETA

I will have to locate it tomorrow .

I think I found the only plus side to windows 8 it seems to bring google earth into better focus.