Omaha double murder

[Sarahsue]

I think your ideas and theories about the case are so interesting. I am baffled myself. In the beginning I really thought serial killer. And I know that was kind of pushed aside because this isnt typical serial killer MO. I do however think the BTK had people fooled at first too. I just dont know. I dont buy the hit man theory, or someone he offended online. It just makes no sense to me.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Greykid, my apologies. I have been a bit scattered and neglected to give you the big :Welcome-12-june:

Sarahsue, I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor. You know what I mean I hope, short comments will suffice and you'll reach your goal of 50 posts in no time.

Hey Knox! Good to see you! You too snick!

wm

 

[greykid]

waltzingmatilda - thanks, and no problem!

snick - working on it right now, apologies again for the delays; I've been working on another thread too, and a shocking amount of my last 48 hours was gobbled up! Currently trying to edit my upcoming post for length, should be sticking it up in the next couple of hours.

hi to all - it IS great to see new faces on here. Knox, your "let's get crackin'" was both funny and inspiring, heh!

Right, back to work. Posting soon.

 

[greykid]

Ok, finally done with the mulling over and re-wording. Gonna post in two chunks so I don't fry the board, heh! As ever with me, it's all just lateral thinking stuff - that's my background, as opposed to hard research, which I'm fairly lame at. Hope that's cool!

Been through and read this thread from the beginning, good work guys.

So...initial thoughts on a couple of notions previously outlined. All IMO, of course!

1. ‘Suspicious visitor’ POI as the lone perp?
I’m going with yes for now, reasons being:
i. Timing fits. If POI left Shirlee/Tom alive when he left, then actual perp would have had to sneak in and out again, completely unobserved, within next half hour or so. Multiple witnesses to arrival/exit of POI make this seem unlikely.
ii. For same reason as (i), additional perp(s) involved at scene is unlikely. Unseen conspirator(s) would have had to arrive at Hunter property earlier, and stayed remarkably well hidden from what sound like very observant neighbors. A one-perp operation at the scene more plausible.
iii. Clothing worn and bag carried by POI seem to match/allow for perp’s MO.


2. Weapons used
Would be very useful (though impossible at present?) to establish whether the two (precisely two?) knives ‘recovered’ were either:
a) brought to the house
b) already belonged there, used more opportunistically
c) a combination - one brought, additional grabbed?

- Generally, weapons left at scene more common in case of b), as we know.
- However, bag carried by POI makes a) distinctly possible.
- If a), did the perp bring a ‘spare’, or use two together? A slick, organized perp might well carry a spare to a well-planned hit, but POI’s apparent difficulty in locating the right house - whether or not they actually succeeded - doesn’t seem well-planned. If he didn’t know exactly where the address was, how could he accurately predict what time he’d get there? And yet the perp here seemed to be operating in a fairly narrow time window - doesn't suggest good planning to me. However, two might have been carried to act as a single weapon, which seems to fit a rage scenario.
- Weapons being left as a ‘message’ seems far-fetched, IMHO. Would Dr Hunter, a medial teacher, really be expected to note and understand any ambiguous or convoluted criminal ‘shorthand’ amid the shock and horror of the scene?

NB: Clearly the Hunters, and therefore LE, will definitely know whether the weapons were brought in or not. And yet we, the public, do not. Can we thus infer that the answer is particularly significant? I think so. Why? Two reasons:

i. If no weapon was brought, suggests perp was already known to either Shirlee or at least one of the Hunter family. Also suggests the visit might at one point have had an alternate outcome, but that things somehow went badly awry. (NB: To me, ‘potential different outcome’ theory also seems to match POI’s witnessed behaviour in approaching the house - stop-starting down an affluent suburban road in a silver SUV is hardly discrete for someone who knew they were definitely about to commit a major crime.)

ii. Answer to whether or not weapons were brought might tell us which victim was killed first, especially if the earlier mention of a weapon left in Tom’s body is accurate, and therefore help clarify a motive.

So:

3. Order of events at the scene
If ‘weapon in Tom’s body’ rumour is accurate, then the order of attacks seems to hinge on whether one or two knives were used simultaneously.

i. If perp used one at a time, seems more likely Tom was attacked first. Either the weapon stuck awkwardly, or perp let go of it as Tom fell, giving cause to use a second weapon to attack Shirlee. Had perp attacked Shirlee first with one weapon, which remained in his possession (ie. was not left in the body), why then ‘swap’ weapons to attack Tom?

ii. If perp used two weapons simultaneously, seems more likely Shirlee was attacked first. Would seem odd for a perp to attack a child using two weapons, leave one behind in the process, then go after an adult using just one?

[Cont'd in next post...]

 

[greykid]

[...Cont'd from previous post]


While either scenario is plausible, my hunch is that Shirlee was killed first, and for a reason we haven’t really discussed yet - the noise factor. I’ve heard from more than one source that a stabbing - especially in a fairly frenzied way, as appears to have been the case here - makes a sound not dissimilar to a fight, or landing a series of fist blows. It certainly doesn’t seem that these attacks would have been completely noiseless, even if the victims weren’t able to put up much of a defence.

Now, Shirlee was found 20 feet or so away from Tom, on the same floor but in a different room. I’d need a floor plan to confirm, but I’m guessing that the dining room where Tom was found is further into the house than where Shirlee was found - indeed, Dr Hunter’s account of discovering the scene seems to confirm this. So, assuming the victims died where they were attacked, and that the perp didn’t move the bodies around the house, it’s hard to imagine that Shirlee wouldn’t have heard something if Tom had been attacked first on the same floor. At that point, presumably she would either approach the source of the noise quickly, or move away from it quickly (depending on exactly what she’d heard). Thus I would expect her body to have been found either closer to, or further away from Tom’s. 20 feet seems like an awkward distance indoors - more or less the next room, and no more than two or three seconds in terms of someone running away. It doesn’t seem to fit the location of someone either walking in on, or running away from, an attack in progress.

However, if Shirlee had been attacked first, it seems reasonable to imagine Tom, downstairs in the basement, hearing something odd but not knowing quite what - at which point, a very normal response would be to pause a video game and come upstairs to check it out. I’m guessing a floor plan would reveal the location of the basement stairs to fit this theory.


4. A couple of thoughts re: ‘kidnapping gone bad’ motive

This more or less went out of the window right away for me, for one major reason: nothing about the neighbors’ eyewitness reports indicates POI attempted to get his vehicle as close to the Hunter property as possible. Instead, it sounded very much as though he parked in the street and walked up to the property from there.

POI had to know there was a chance of being seen entering and/or exiting - otherwise, why the studied coolness on exiting the scene? - and so a physical abduction attempt seems hugely unlikely with the car parked a distance away in the street. IMO, even if the abductor was hoping to somehow coax/trick the abductee into their vehicle rather than physically wrestle them in, the problem of potential witnesses still makes it unlikely POI would parked in the street had they been planning to leave the Hunter property with anybody. We know they had two driveways, and that only one, or even just a part of one, was in use (Shirlee’s Taurus).


Anyone care to extrapolate any theories from all that? As ever, all JMO, and feel free to point out any glaring errors! I fried my brain thinking about this one, so I’m sure I may have made some obvious ones.

Cheers guys, hope we can get somewhere on this one. Needs solving, for the victims and their loved ones.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Excellent perspective greykid! :clap: And very thought provoking! I'll have to read and re-read before I can respond intelligently but you've added valuable insight! Thanks! And I'm with you and Knox and eveyone else here...let's get crackin!:woohoo:

wm

 

[YellowDog]

Hi Greykid:
From a photo I saw of the front of the house, it looks like it is an old traditional style house with a center hall plan with the stairs and the hall being in the center of the house and the living room and dining room being across the front of the house on either side of the hall.

If that is the case, I would think Thomas would have been close to the front part of the house and, therefore, the one the killer came to see and the housekeeper being further down the hall nearer the kitchen area. For some reason I visualize the boy being killed first and the housekeeper hearing the scuffle and coming toward that area when she was killed.

 

[greykid]

Interesting YellowDog, and yes, definitely a possibility. What bothers me slightly about that scenario though, is that even if Shirlee agreed to let this man in to talk to Tom, it seems strange that she'd have left them alone (unless Tom definitely knew and seemed comfortable with whoever it was - and that surely narrows it down a lot given the description of the POI, if indeed that's our perp).

However, I can much more easily imagine Shirlee letting someone in and having a conversation with someone upstairs, and Tom not really being very interested until he heard something unusual, at which point he comes to the ground floor.

Either way, it certainly seems unlikely that the two victims were attacked at the same time - that seem quite difficult, for one thing, and not in keeping with the evidence at the scene either. That being the case, I'm drawn to Shirlee first, but I can definitely see your point. A floor plan would be sooooo helpful...

 

[Knox]

Great post greykid ... I think we can find an arugument that fits either scenerio-who was killed first, second. So I think that will remain a variable. Same with the weapons, brought to the crime scene or grabbed in the home.

As to motive ... you only touched lightly, let's hear your thoughts. Creighton affiliation? Also was Shirlee or Tom the target? BBL.

 

[greykid]

As to motive ... you only touched lightly, let's hear your thoughts. Creighton affiliation? Also was Shirlee or Tom the target? BBL.

My general leaning, based on the thoughts above, is Shirlee as the target. Possible scenario:

Single perp, likely representing others, comes looking for Shirlee at her place of work in order to 'discuss' something serious (very possibly linked to the various oddness/rumours involving her daughter's possible bad debts/recent burglary at Shirlee's place/Shirlee carrying large amounts of cash around with her, etc - did we look further into any of those?). At this point, he's armed but not necessarily with full intent. Doesn't get the right answers, and things escalate.

I can think of numerous reasons why it would be advantageous to make this sort of approach at the Hunters' house, at this hour, as opposed to the more obvious route of approaching Shirlee at her own home - more anonymous, more isolated, fewer options for her, maybe she's stopped answering the door to strangers at home, etc. Plus in the event of a crime, the venue certainly complicates the investigation, as this thread shows...

It also explains why she might have let him in, which seems odd in itself, as well as the fact that the POI didn't look/act like a random drifter and that he only had a rough knowledge of the address.

Saddens me immensely to say so, but I'm inclined to think that Tom might possibly have been a really, really tragic collateral victim when things didn't work out satisfactorily for the visitor.

Obviously there are many things I think disagree with this theory - not least that taking out a kid, even as a potential witness, is a hell of a jump - but this seems to fit better than anything else I can think of for now. Could, of course, be way off - all JMO, and pure guesswork/gut feeling.

 

[po boy]

Greykid, interesting.

I think the issue of wether the weapon (s) were brought in by the perpretator puts the answer to this case into one of two categories:



1) He brought weapon (s) with him to home.

a. This scenario leaves one of two possibilities:

i. He did not have definite plans to kill, it only was a possibility. He brought the knives along with him just in case. He therefore must have known either the boy and/or Sherman.

ii. It still could be random, he didn't know either the boy or Sherman. He just went out killing and brought the knives.

2) He didn't bring weapons to the home.

a. In my mind, this leaves only one possibility:

i. He knew either the boy and/or Sherman.
ii. I can't imagine a scenario where a man goes to a random house to kill and doesn't bring a weapon with him.
iii. To me this scenario also implies that some unknown situation escalated, knives were grabbed, and the act was done.

If the scenario 2) is correct, in other words he did not bring the weapons to the home, then as far as I can tell we can say this act was NOT random, but was directed at either the boy or Sherman. If the first scenario is correct, it still leaves the possibility of this being a random act, thereby requiring casting a wider net as to who committed this heinous act.

Similarly, if he did not bring the knives to the scene, then this person must have been familiar with where to find knives (and two knives at that?). And if this is so, he must be familiar with the Hunters, perhaps having even been to the house before.

 

[Knox]

Greykid ... All very possible and your motive scenerio could work ... I have long thought that the target was Tom and that the motive was linked to the Father's employment at Creighton. Having a hard time letting go of that, lol. It smacked of a personal vendetta/murder for hire. In my mind, it was not odd that Shirlee let him in. He could have said he was one of Tom's teachers or a colleague of Bill's dropping something off for him, who knows? He must have looked believable and his reason for being there made sense to her. Shirlee's car in the driveway, was that a rear driveway hidden from view of the front of the house? My point is that is an odd time of day, so I always assumed they knew what time Tom got off the bus, the Mom was out of town and Dad was at work. Who knows maybe someone at Creighton was in contact with the perp via cell and had a visual on Bill at work.

In your theory with Shirlee being the intended victim ... how would the perp know where she was on that particular day/time and how to find her?

Great job greykid!

 

[TheMeaningOfItAll]

Greykid ... All very possible and your motive scenerio could work ... I have long thought that the target was Tom and that the motive was linked to the Father's employment at Creighton. Having a hard time letting go of that, lol. It smacked of a personal vendetta/murder for hire. In my mind, it was not odd that Shirlee let him in. He could have said he was one of Tom's teachers or a colleague of Bill's dropping something off for him, who knows? He must have looked believable and his reason for being there made sense to her. Shirlee's car in the driveway, was that a rear driveway hidden from view of the front of the house? My point is that is an odd time of day, so I always assumed they knew what time Tom got off the bus, the Mom was out of town and Dad was at work. Who knows maybe someone at Creighton was in contact with the perp via cell and had a visual on Bill at work.

In your theory with Shirlee being the intended victim ... how would the perp know where she was on that particular day/time and how to find her?

Great job greykid!

I lean towards your idea as well, Knox. I think Shirlee could have let the perp in for the same reason you list...he said that he was a teacher/coworker and she, being at her place of employment, didn't really question it. She wanted to be polite. Alternately, I can see the perp going up to the door and saying something quietly to S. like, "Don't say a word, open the door and you won't get hurt..." She, being taken aback, does what he says. Greykid, I can see your ideas as being very plausible as well. I don't have a hard time swallowing the perp's trouble finding the house, though. If he was a hitman, let's say, he may not have scouted the area beforehand because he was just that arrogant. He got the call last minute, drove in the car, and with the navigation systems, Google maps, etc. they have nowadays, it's not that hard for me to imagine a well-practiced hitman thinking he could find the house with no problem. Hmmm...this is all interesting stuff to ponder!:waitasec:

 

[Knox]

I lean towards your idea as well, Knox. I think Shirlee could have let the perp in for the same reason you list...he said that he was a teacher/coworker and she, being at her place of employment, didn't really question it. She wanted to be polite. Alternately, I can see the perp going up to the door and saying something quietly to S. like, "Don't say a word, open the door and you won't get hurt..." She, being taken aback, does what he says. Greykid, I can see your ideas as being very plausible as well. I don't have a hard time swallowing the perp's trouble finding the house, though. If he was a hitman, let's say, he may not have scouted the area beforehand because he was just that arrogant. He got the call last minute, drove in the car, and with the navigation systems, Google maps, etc. they have nowadays, it's not that hard for me to imagine a well-practiced hitman thinking he could find the house with no problem. Hmmm...this is all interesting stuff to ponder!:waitasec:

Good points ... Don't want to be a thread hog, so I'll wait for others to chime in

 

[waltzingmatilda]

If Shirlee was the intended target then why leave the money in her purse? Unless the perp was alerted by something or someone. Perhaps someone was for watching Dr. H to leave work and alerted the perp to this. Just thinking of different ideas and scenarios....

 

[Knox]

If Shirlee was the intended target then why leave the money in her purse? Unless the perp was alerted by something or someone. Perhaps someone was for watching Dr. H to leave work and alerted the perp to this. Just thinking of different ideas and scenarios....

Anyone know the drive-time from Creighton to the home?

 

[Sarahsue]

Does anyone know if the witnesses that saw the POI referring to an address and looking a bit lost, were the same people that saw him leave the Hunter's home? Can we be sure the "lost man" was actually looking for this house.
Im sure that may already have been answered, but Its not clear for me.

 

[Snick1946]

Anyone know the drive-time from Creighton to the home?

Not far, I'd bet about ten minutes or so.

Sarahsue- interesting, that question has never come up before. I always assumed the wittnesses were the same but maybe not. There has always been some mystery about these wittnesses. What I mean is they seem to have been observing quite a bit- maybe normal for a tight knit neighborhgood
and it's sad no one got the license plate #. IMO, that was disguised to look differently which points to a planned hit.
The theory of Shirlee being mixed up in some situation with drug dealers has been around since the beginning. What mitigates against it to my thinking is that I question if someone acting on behalf of dealers would have killed two persons in an upscale home like that, especially a child. Not that they are known for being tender hearted but it would be bad for business and make things pretty hot.
One varient of this story I heard about a year ago was that the killer or someone close to them is a protected informant for Omaha Police and for now they are getting a pass on the murders. Yeah, that's frightening, I know. Bear in mind it was just a rumor.

 

[YellowDog]

Since robbery was obviously not the motive and we've heard nothing with sexual innuendos, I'm inclined to think the boy either knew something and someone was afraid they were going to be exposed or someone had fixated on him and he was spurning their attentions. He could have been too embarrassed to mention this to anyone.

Shirley could have let the killer in or he could have pushed his way in when she answered the door. That's if SHE was the one who answered the door. The boy could have been expecting the person and answered the door himself. As I've stated before, my cleaning lady does NOT answer the door or the telephone when she is at my house unless specifically asked to.

If this had been a drug deal connected to Shirley in some way, I believe they would have taken her money to recoup what they could.

Any registered perverts in the immediate area?

 

[Knox]

Good point about who answered the door YD. I think I assume it was SS because T's video game was on pause. It made sense that he either heard a commotion or was summoned from the basement, putting that game on pause. This also makes sense because the perp would obviously want to get the adult out of the way first. I think SS was killed first and she was a suprise factor in the perp's plan. I don't think he knew she would be there. It's why I ask where her car was parked and if it was visible from the street.

I can agree with your theory about T knowing something he shouldn't have, but I bet that link will travel in a full circle back to Creighton. If not it's related to his school. Maybe we should bring Tuba's charts and posts forward for the newcomers.