OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #1

[Sonya610]

Nah. It's more the fact that I detest guns and the crazy nuts around where I live that shoot em whenever they get liquored up.

But I am funny like that. . Thanks, though for telling me why I think guns are scary!

The "crazy nuts" likely have a lot to do with it.

For me the presence of firearms, and being around people that have firearms, represents safety and comfort.

The only gun store with an indoor range around here is in a bad area 30 miles away. I avoid that area however the moment I walk into that store I am completely relaxed. Why? Because if there is a problem (i.e. robbery) I know I am surrounded by people able and willing to deal with the problem.

 

[KaaBoom]

The fact is that throughout the United States, there is virtually no correlation between liberal gun laws and violent crime rates. There are areas with strict gun laws and high crime. Areas with liberal gun laws and high crime. Areas with strict gun laws and low crime. Areas with liberal gun laws and low crime.

The fact is, violent crime isn't influenced by the availability of guns. It's irrational -- a sort of magical thinking -- to imagine that gun control laws can or will reduce crime.

The fact is, the "gun culture" in America is just fine and does not cause or contribute to violence. The violence culture, that's a different problem altogether. And you gun-control proponents can't admit that violence is the problem. So the body count will continue to go up.

<modsnip>

If so many criminals are being stopped by people carrying a concealed weapon, as you say they are. Then why is there twice as much violent crime in the US, then in Canada where CCW is illegal?

 

[Mountaingazer]

It's everywhere, finally.

There are some states and cities that still make it very very difficult for a law-abiding citizen to obtain a carry permit. In those areas, only the violent criminals are carrying.



Oddly enough, the states that don't require a permit to carry tend to have very low crime rates. Vermont, for example. Anyone can carry legally in Vermont. There's almost no crime there. Mind-blowing.

Things are changing in Vermont though. As the heroin epidemic spreads and we have gangs from New York and Connecticut coming to peddle their drugs, gun crimes, violent crimes, and murder have been on the rise.

Also while we are still ranked low on the gun violence occurring within our state, because of our lax laws we are ranked 16th highest when it comes to illegal gun exports that go on to be used in crimes in other states.

Though I will say one reason we have had low gun crime rates is because of education. The one and only time I ever shot a gun, my friend's dad made us sit through a two hour gun safety speech with him before we were even allowed to touch the guns. Unfortunately the gun safety initiation that used to be an honored tradition here is becoming a lost art. The newer generations are not passing this on to their children, drunken target shooting parties are the big high school "thing" now, and I am sure you will continue to see Vermont's gun crime rate rise unfortunately.

 

[GutInstinct]

Yeah. What do I do about a family member, a young teenage boy who has been homeschooled, who keeps to himself, who presents as "non-neurotypical" (I don't know anything about any diagnoses--it's not talked about)...so much about him sounds like the stories of the Sandy Hook shooter and this one (I'm deliberately not naming them). How do I know I'm not being alarmist? How do I not alienate that part of the family if I say such a thing? How on earth would I ever say "Gee, are you keeping an eye on your son to make sure he's not going to go kill a bunch of people in 7 years?"?

What is to be done? No one wants to believe that their loved one, their neighbor, their relative could become something like this.

Good Points, RubyJuno & Trino,

Two similarities IMO ONLY in the Sandy Hook & most recent case: the caregiver may* also be or has been struggling with a mental illness of sorts.

 

[Fairy1]

I'm sure as more details emerge about this killer, we'll learn there were plenty of red flags that were either missed or ignored. Based on what we know so far, seems it would have been common sense for those around him to prevent him from having weapons.

 

[GutInstinct]

Because the truth is, at least IMO, that a 'caregiver' who cooperates/assists/participates/knowingly goes along with - having their teen or your adult who lives with them - keeping and adding to - a cache of deadly weapons - is also suffering from *something. (Using my words carefully).

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Chris Harper Mercer attended a school for teens with emotional disabilities - Switzer Center. Some of these students had been expelled from other schools or had had trouble with the law. And, herein lies a big problem. Most likely, while in school, he had help. Then, boom. He graduated. No continuum. No help.

http://www.dailybreeze.com/general-...ved-in-torrance-graduated-from-switzer-center

http://www.switzercenter.org/our-history

 

[GutInstinct]

...even if it is a desperate act to connect with their disengaged teen/and or young adult - when it comes to the continued collection of a cache of deadly weapons- red flags should go up. A caregiver *could call.

I ask you all as I write this - "Who would the caregiver call?" THIS presents another roadblock we have in our society:

It is nearly impossible to get (an appt) with a psychiatrist/MD when you need them: This is what boggles my mind: a psychiatrist crisis IS a crisis. As in, happening NOW.

911? What happens next? What do you say?

And of course, all changes depending on whether or not they are under or over 18.

Thoughts?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Oct 3 2015, 8:03 am ET

Oregon College Shooting: Nine Victims of Rampage Are Identified

by Elisha Fieldstadt and Jillian Sederholm

The nine people killed during a shooting at an Oregon college ranged in age from 18 to 67 — from freshmen who hadn't even finished their first week of college to a retired school teacher who had returned to educating students.

The Douglas County Sheriff's Office identified the nine people killed as Lucero Alcaraz, 19; Quinn Glen Cooper, 18; Kim Saltmarsh Dietz, 59; Lucas Eibel, 18; Jason Dale Johnson, 33; Lawrence Levine, 67; Sarena Dawn Moore, 44; Treven Taylor Anspach, 20; and Rebecka Ann Carnes, 18.

Gunman Chris Harper Mercer, 26, was killed after a firefight with police at Umpqua Community College. Douglas County Sheriff John Hanlin did not say whether Mercer took his own life or was killed by officers.

Mercer was a student at Umpqua and was enrolled in the class where he opened fire on Thursday, according to authorities...

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/or...g-nine-victims-rampage-are-identified-n437881

 

[Trino]

This killer was 26 years old, not a kid. How does one deal with a dysfunctional adult who apparently had no criminal record, as all weapons were obtained legally. He tried to enroll in a gun safety class, and the instructor would not allow him to do so. Red flags from the instructor, yet CM was able to purchase 13 weapons. He took 6 weapons with him, had another 7 at home. Maybe it's time to say citizens cannot have a weapons cache. Who needs 13 weapons, except maybe a collector, who CM was not.

 

[ILOKAL]

This killer was 26 years old, not a kid. How does one deal with a dysfunctional adult who apparently had no criminal record, as all weapons were obtained legally. He tried to enroll in a gun safety class, and the instructor would not allow him to do so. Red flags from the instructor, yet CM was able to purchase 13 weapons. He took 6 weapons with him, had another 7 at home. Maybe it's time to say citizens cannot have a weapons cache. Who needs 13 weapons, except maybe a collector, who CM was not.

I wonder if all the guns were purchased from the same gun dealer? Has anyone come forward who sold a gun/s to him?

 

[kimlynn]

This killer was 26 years old, not a kid. How does one deal with a dysfunctional adult who apparently had no criminal record, as all weapons were obtained legally. He tried to enroll in a gun safety class, and the instructor would not allow him to do so. Red flags from the instructor, yet CM was able to purchase 13 weapons. He took 6 weapons with him, had another 7 at home. Maybe it's time to say citizens cannot have a weapons cache. Who needs 13 weapons, except maybe a collector, who CM was not.

No one person needs that many weapons but try saying that to the gun rights folks. Some seem to think they need to arm themselves on the same level as the military and LE. It's their right.
As long as we have folks saying "stuff happens" and 'wrong place wrong time' (Bush brothers)and the NRA lobbying Congress we will still be having these mass shootings.
Even Michael Moore gave up saying you can't beat the NRA. IMO

 

[sonjay]

This may be true in America, but it certainly isn't in Australia. http://mic.com/articles/123049/19-y...ontrol-laws-here-s-what-happened-in-australia

As to "violence," isn't that an inanimate thing? It's as inanimate as a gun.

Violence is not an inanimate object; it's a behavior engaged in by people with volition. Guns have no volition.

Crime rates in Australia haven't been affected by their ridiculous gun control laws. Gun homicides? Yeah, down. Homicides overall? Nope. This is the point: gun control laws, assuming that they effectively remove guns from society, only cause violent criminals to use other tools to commit their violent crimes.

 

[kimlynn]

The reason the NRA won't budge on anything is because they learned with the Brady law that when you give in on one thing then the anti gun types just move on the their next attempted ban or restriction.

I don't see what how many guns a person "needs" has to do with anything. How many stamps does a stamp collector need? I have more TVs than I need, more cars than need, more video players than I need and, perish the thought, more knives than I need.

And that is the usual response that the anti gun people want to take guns from the law abiding or collectors. The NRA planted that evil little seed and it has grown.IMO

 

[sonjay]

Things are changing in Vermont though. As the heroin epidemic spreads and we have gangs from New York and Connecticut coming to peddle their drugs, gun crimes, violent crimes, and murder have been on the rise.

Also while we are still ranked low on the gun violence occurring within our state, because of our lax laws we are ranked 16th highest when it comes to illegal gun exports that go on to be used in crimes in other states.

Though I will say one reason we have had low gun crime rates is because of education. The one and only time I ever shot a gun, my friend's dad made us sit through a two hour gun safety speech with him before we were even allowed to touch the guns. Unfortunately the gun safety initiation that used to be an honored tradition here is becoming a lost art. The newer generations are not passing this on to their children, drunken target shooting parties are the big high school "thing" now, and I am sure you will continue to see Vermont's gun crime rate rise unfortunately.

Unfortunately, that's what happens when guns are demonized and treated as the source of all evil. People aren't educated about gun safety, and they don't grow up viewing firearms as a useful tool that can be used for positive purposes. T

This is a good argument for bringing firearm safety education back to the classroom and reinvigorating the "gun culture." It's too bad that gun control groups oppose firearm safety training.

 

[sonjay]

I'm sure as more details emerge about this killer, we'll learn there were plenty of red flags that were either missed or ignored. Based on what we know so far, seems it would have been common sense for those around him to prevent him from having weapons.

I would take it a step further and say that if you have sufficient concern about someone's mental health that you think you need to remove their access to guns, you should pursue it legally to see if you can get them into mental health treatment.

 

[sonjay]

No one person needs that many weapons but try saying that to the gun rights folks. Some seem to think they need to arm themselves on the same level as the military and LE. It's their right.
As long as we have folks saying "stuff happens" and 'wrong place wrong time' (Bush brothers)and the NRA lobbying Congress we will still be having these mass shootings.
Even Michael Moore gave up saying you can't beat the NRA. IMO

It's no one else's business to decide for me how many of anything I "need." The US is not based on that sort of concept.

Many thousands of law-abiding citizens own many more guns that this had. No one is in any danger from them.

 

[kimlynn]

It's no one else's business to decide for me how many of anything I "need." The US is not based on that sort of concept.

Many thousands of law-abiding citizens own many more guns that this had. No one is in any danger from them.

I agree. I think the issue is to try and weed out the ones that would use their arsenal to maim and murder at random. I see no reason why we couldn't try to do that. IMO

 

[Fairy1]

I would take it a step further and say that if you have sufficient concern about someone's mental health that you think you need to remove their access to guns, you should pursue it legally to see if you can get them into mental health treatment.

I agree. However, the resources necessary to pursue that course largely do not exist. That is a real problem in this country and should be at the center of this discussion. And many others.

 

[KateB]

Reminder:

This thread is veering way off the rails.

TOPIC: UMPQUA COMMUNITY COLLEGE SHOOTING

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:trainwreck: