OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #2

[Sonya610]

Pressure cookers. Fertilizer. Mass killings don't require guns, and anyone intent on a mass killing can do it with or without a gun.

Plus mass killings only represent a tiny fraction of murders. When individuals are being attacked or having their homes invaded killing with knives/machetes (or just their fists) is very very effective.

I am female, without firearms I couldn't even hope to defend myself against knife/machete wielding male attackers. Heck even if they just used a bat or their fists I wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[Dogface]

In this case, yes, it means he was out of touch with reality. But you don't have to question everything and see conspiracies everywhere to question nothing. False dichotomy. Be curious and ask questions, yes, about everything. But a person shouldn't be ignorant and hurtful and hide behind "Just questioning things" like that makes it okay.

JMO.

Perhaps I missed where he was ignorant and hurtful. I just saw a video shared. Did I miss something else?

 

[Lilibet]

As I've said before, I think the father of the shooter has more standing to speak his mind about the issue of gun control than anyone on this thread, whether one agrees or disagrees with him. I doubt anyone here has gone through the trauma of knowing that their son opened fire on innocent people with intent to kill them. That is devastating. He is entitled to his opinion and our compassion IMO. I really don't think it's fair to criticize him for his opinion. I feel the same way about any survivors of a shooting and the families of victims and survivors. We are not in their shoes.

I also think that criticizing the father's parenting is unfair. We know nothing about his relationship with his son or his actions regarding his son's issues. Not all non-custodial fathers are able to be deeply involved in their child's life during their teens. After a certain age, kids don't have to visit that parent. And for all we know, he may have paid for the private school his son attended.

We do know more about the mother. The shooter had always lived with her, not his father. She is the one with the gun obsession. It's quite possible for the father to know nothing about that and be in shock. The mother is the one who reportedly called her adult son "baby" and asked neighbors to accommodate his issues. The father may have known nothing about this, if she is as private as reports indicate. To say that he should have gotten help for his son is quite unrealistic IMO. We all know how difficult it is to obtain mental health treatment for an older teen or adult child.

I hope we can show compassion for this father, instead of judgement. JMO

 

[human]

Right. The idea is the security guard calls LE and is there so the criminal knows someone is already there. It would save lives because then the criminal would not be able to just freely walk from building to building without a worry in the world.

Even if the security guard does nothing more than stay put and fire warning shots to let the shooter know someone is out there, I think it would help save lives. Put some fear into the criminal. Make them know someone is already "out there". Heck, 1 guard could make it sound like an army is out there.

Every situation is unique and every individual is unique. Some guards would elect to go in like Rambo and others may elect to hole up outside the building and prevent the shooter from walking out to the next building.

The idea is to at least have someone there to show the shooter that some form of resistance is already on campus and is armed and can shoot back at them.
Turn the tables on the shooter. Buy some time until LE gets there.

I don't think they care as most kill their own selves.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't think they care as most kill their own selves.

I don't like the idea we're forced to settle. Like having a guard there like that would at least buy some time and save a few lives? It shouldn't be unreasonable to ask to save all lives, period. To not have this happen at all. It's like we've all taken such a defeated attitude: shooters are going to come into schools with weapons locked and loaded and there's nothing we can do to stop them.

JMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

Perhaps I missed where he was ignorant and hurtful. I just saw a video shared. Did I miss something else?

I don't know what you've seen. It's possible we don't find the same things ignorant and hurtful.

 

[human]

Was this posted already? Shooters mom brags about Arsenal of firearms online-

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/natio...agged-weapons-online-report-article-1.2383689

Honestly she seems like a complete moron- like the newtown mom. The last thing her son needed was access to firearms.

On CNN on Saturday (smerconish show) a psychologist was a guest who talked about mass shooters- there are very specific red flags in these cases and four things all mass shooters have in common are:

1) History of violence/being violent. In any way (against people, animals, inanimate objects) even if no police involvement

2) Substance abuse of any kind.

3) Past trauma

4) Access to guns

So this specifically is what we need to be looking out for as parents, educators, concerned citizens. Another psychologist called the mass shooter mindset "revenge of the nobody" which is also true.

Both cautioned that it was irresponsible to blame it on mental health or guns and that it is necessary to watch for those four characteristics in someone - and that there are always always always red flags before it happens.

And other countries have been able to stop mass shootings entirely so there is no reason we can't as well. It just takes a multi-disciplinary approach and we can't rely on only one thing (like mental health laws or gun laws) to magically solve this.

In the meantime... I think one good precautionary measure we can take is to help protect students on college campuses is to have their state police take the roll of campus security. I went to SUNY Buffalo (UB) and the New York State police are "campus security"- they (state police) formed a division in the seventies (when all the college riots happened I think) called "state university police" to patrol all of the state school campuses- they even have barracks on campus with holding cells, etc.

This whole epidemic of mass shootings will involve a multi faceted approach to stop, but one thing we can do while we get it figured out is have local police agencies help secure campuses.

Some grade schools have school resource officers - who are officers with a local police agency in that area- IMO every school (elementary, middle school, high school) should have one. They are highly trained to deal with crisis situations obviously and combine that they are certified and trained to use a firearm if need be.

So again we need may different things to stop mass shootings but this can help keep things safer if at all possible in the meantime.

Edited to add: I also think every school- elementary thru college- needs to do "emergency action drills" - much like fire drills- only you practice the emergency plan for a mass shooting situation.

Schools can be equipped with things to aid escape- like second floor classrooms can be outfitted with those emergency chain ladders you can escape from a window with, the classroom doors can be fabricated going forward with better deadbolts/locking bars, a steel/alloy core that would protect from gun fire. There are even security systems (like the one in my house lol) that have a phone/intercom/wired and wireless camera system built in so if the system is tripped, the security and 911 call center can beam in directly through the system to talk to you and get a good audio/visual assessment of the situation - even if you can't talk- they can see and hear what is going on to dispatch the right emergency responders (fire or police or emt or swat teams etc) to your location.

I think these things may help save lives in a crisis.


Sent from my not so humble opinion.

How did Australia stop their mass shootings after Tasmania?

What do other nations do to deal with mental health? ( one thing is that they use psychotropic meds)

After Columbine, a Federal Law was passed that all schools practice a school lockdown 6 times a year.

There a a National School standards designed by architects which has the school design to deal with the issues of school shooters. The new schools in my districtt were made using those standards. I am sure they get updated.

We can all live in our armed and protected homes, never leave, have everything delivered by robots and have kids learn at home via cc TV and the internet.

 

[Sonya610]

As I've said before, I think the father of the shooter has more standing to speak his mind about the issue of gun control than anyone on this thread

The father that claims "the guns are responsible for the killing?" To me that sound delusional, I can see why he hooked up with his ex.

How does fathering a mass murderer give his opinion more weight than the rest of us? If anything his opinion should have LESS merit than the rest of us. He knew his kid had mental problems, he should have known both his ex and the son were going off the deep end and buying up an arsenal of weapons.

And if having a mass murdering child makes him an expert I guess that means the Mother's opinion on the matter has more merit than anyone's here too?

 

[sonjay]

As I've said before, I think the father of the shooter has more standing to speak his mind about the issue of gun control than anyone on this thread, whether one agrees or disagrees with him. I doubt anyone here has gone through the trauma of knowing that their son opened fire on innocent people with intent to kill them. That is devastating. He is entitled to his opinion and our compassion IMO. I really don't think it's fair to criticize him for his opinion. I feel the same way about any survivors of a shooting and the families of victims and survivors. We are not in their shoes.

I disagree. He himself has admitted that he's never even held a gun. He knows nothing about them. When people want to ban things, they should have some idea what they're talking about. He has no more "standing" to talk about gun control than Carolyn "shoulder thing that goes up" McCarthy. Google that if you're not familiar with her particular brand of ignorance.

I also think that criticizing the father's parenting is unfair. We know nothing about his relationship with his son or his actions regarding his son's issues. Not all non-custodial fathers are able to be deeply involved in their child's life during their teens. After a certain age, kids don't have to visit that parent. And for all we know, he may have paid for the private school his son attended.

He had to be pretty willfully absent from his son's life to know virtually nothing about his son's weird obsessions. He last saw his son at least a year ago. He's been sued for sexual harassment. By any standard, he's not a model parent. But he claims to know exactly what caused his son to go off the rails and become a mass murderer.

We do know more about the mother. The shooter had always lived with her, not his father. She is the one with the gun obsession. It's quite possible for the father to know nothing about that and be in shock. The mother is the one who reportedly called her adult son "baby" and asked neighbors to accommodate his issues. The father may have known nothing about this, if she is as private as reports indicate. To say that he should have gotten help for his son is quite unrealistic IMO. We all know how difficult it is to obtain mental health treatment for an older teen or adult child.

The mother has apparently not been a model parent either.

 

[Hatfield]

As I've said before, I think the father of the shooter has more standing to speak his mind about the issue of gun control than anyone on this thread, whether one agrees or disagrees with him. I doubt anyone here has gone through the trauma of knowing that their son opened fire on innocent people with intent to kill them. That is devastating. He is entitled to his opinion and our compassion IMO. I really don't think it's fair to criticize him for his opinion. I feel the same way about any survivors of a shooting and the families of victims and survivors. We are not in their shoes.

I also think that criticizing the father's parenting is unfair. We know nothing about his relationship with his son or his actions regarding his son's issues. Not all non-custodial fathers are able to be deeply involved in their child's life during their teens. After a certain age, kids don't have to visit that parent. And for all we know, he may have paid for the private school his son attended.

We do know more about the mother. The shooter had always lived with her, not his father. She is the one with the gun obsession. It's quite possible for the father to know nothing about that and be in shock. The mother is the one who reportedly called her adult son "baby" and asked neighbors to accommodate his issues. The father may have known nothing about this, if she is as private as reports indicate. To say that he should have gotten help for his son is quite unrealistic IMO. We all know how difficult it is to obtain mental health treatment for an older teen or adult child.

I hope we can show compassion for this father, instead of judgement. JMO

I am appalled with the media bombarding him at his house. They should leave the poor guy alone.

His 1 question he asked regarding how his son got the multiple guns probably came from the media as they peppered him with questions and he may not have known the answer to that question since he was estranged from his wife for about 2 years.

The way his statements came out was he was upset and mad and wondering how his son got multiple guns. The media was most likely asking him those same questions and so he restated the questions being asked of him. He may not have known the answer at the time but its obvious now what the answer is.
Answer = his own Mother had a lot to do with it.

I am not sure why the media did not bombard the Mother like they did the father. Maybe she is not as cooperative with the media as he was trying to be.

I don't fault him for being upset as we all would. I think as he has learned more about what went on at the Moms house I can only guess that he has realized the media used him to some extent.

 

[Sonya610]

Perhaps I missed where he was ignorant and hurtful. I just saw a video shared. Did I miss something else?

I can see how it could be seen as hurtful. There is a huge difference between the 9/11 conspiracy theorists and the Sandy Hook conspiracy nuts.

9/11 skeptics don't question that thousands of people died, they just argue over who was responsible. In the Sandy Hook case they believe it *never* happened and all of the players are actors. If you lost a loved one that is pretty hurtful, they are basically saying you are a liar AND you never lost a child, in fact your kid never existed.

 

[sonjay]

The father that claims "the guns are responsible for the killing?" To me that sound delusional, I can see why he hooked up with his ex.

How does fathering a mass murderer give his opinion more weight than the rest of us? If anything his opinion should have LESS merit than the rest of us. He knew his kid had mental problems, he should have known both his ex and the son were going off the deep end and buying up an arsenal of weapons.

And if having a mass murdering child makes him an expert I guess that means the Mother's opinion on the matter has more merit than anyone's here too?

I would submit that survivors of that 's shooting spree have more standing to talk about gun control than the 's father.

[h=1]Student, 16, who lost a kidney after being shot by the Oregon college killer says she STILL opposes gun control and wants armed guards in schools[/h]‘We’re pro second amendment, pro guns,’ said Jesse. ‘My sister, my mother, my whole family are all in favor. We were talking about it in the hospital and none of us have changed our minds.’

Jesse’s comments on gun control echo the statement released by the family of another victim, Quinn Cooper, 18, who was shot dead by depraved Harper-Mercer on Thursday.


In a statement released on Friday, his grieving family said their lives were ‘shattered beyond repair’ but said Quinn’s death should not be used as a means of advancing arguments in favour of gun control.

‘We are hearing so many people talk about gun control and taking people's guns away,’ they said. ‘If the public couldn't have guns it wouldn't help since sick people like this will always be able to get their hands on a gun.

​

​

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-gun-control-wants-armed-guards-schools.html

 

[Lilibet]

The father that claims "the guns are responsible for the killing?" To me that sound delusional, I can see why he hooked up with his ex.

How does fathering a mass murderer give his opinion more weight than the rest of us? If anything his opinion should have LESS merit than the rest of us. He knew his kid had mental problems, he should have known both his ex and the son were going off the deep end and buying up an arsenal of weapons.

And if having a mass murdering child makes him an expert I guess that means the Mother's opinion on the matter has more merit than anyone's here too?

BBM

I guess it's not working to make a case here for kindness and compassion toward someone who does not support a particular position. There is no evidence this father has done anything wrong in this situation. And yet he is strongly criticized here for his opinion and "mistakes." How does that insensitivity toward a suffering parent enhance the argument against more gun control? I don't get it.

I didn't say the father is an expert. I said that he is living the emotional devastation of knowing that his son took guns to a school and killed and injured people. We are not. Isn't he entitled to express his opinion? He needs compassion, not judgement. I think that calling him names like "delusional" is out of place. Saying "he should have known" is extremely judgemental IMO. I laid out the valid reasons he may not have known. I'm not excusing him, but attacking him with no real basis is not the kind of discussion I think we should be having here. It doesn't make me want to consider the opinions of those doing so. JMO

My saying that the father has more standing to express his opinion than we do does not mean the mother's opinion has equal standing IMO. I don't know the mother's opinion except by her actions in providing guns for a disturbed son. That says it all at this point. The mother has not issued a statement or expressed concern for the victims AFAIK. The father has. I see no reason to criticize him.

ETA: For those sleuthing him in areas unconnected to this event, that violates WS TOS.

 

[GutInstinct]

MSM has released some of the info included in the so-called manifesto. Eerie insight inside a broken mind

http://news.yahoo.com/alleged-manifesto-oregon-shooter-reveals-155126291.html

 

[bluesneakers]

MSM has released some of the info included in the so-called manifesto. Eerie insight inside a broken mind

http://news.yahoo.com/alleged-manifesto-oregon-shooter-reveals-155126291.html

From the People article:

"He talks about other mass killers, and says, 'These people were denied everything they deserved and wanted.' "

I wonder who he's specifically discussing. I can't think of any who were denied everything, though yes, some had terrible lives.

 

[human]

Afraid of extreme action for GOOD REASON! Many of the posts on this thread typify the exact sort of "extreme action" that makes others not want give an inch.

If you know the enemy plans to take it ALL then giving in and letting them just take "some of it" without a fight is counterproductive.

Just like all "wars" there are risks, if people push hard and lose the other side gains (i.e. massive surge in gun sales during 2013).

Seems like what the shooter's mother thinks

 

[katydid23]

BBM

I guess it's not working to make a case here for kindness and compassion toward someone who does not support a particular position. There is no evidence this father has done anything wrong in this situation. And yet he is strongly criticized here for his opinion and "mistakes." How does that insensitivity toward a suffering parent enhance the argument against more gun control? I don't get it.

I didn't say the father is an expert. I said that he is living the emotional devastation of knowing that his son took guns to a school and killed and injured people. We are not. Isn't he entitled to express his opinion? He needs compassion, not judgement. I think that calling him names like "delusional" is out of place. Saying "he should have known" is extremely judgemental IMO. I laid out the valid reasons he may not have known. I'm not excusing him, but attacking him with no real basis is not the kind of discussion I think we should be having here. It doesn't make me want to consider the opinions of those doing so. JMO

My saying that the father has more standing to express his opinion than we do does not mean the mother's opinion has equal standing IMO. I don't know the mother's opinion except by her actions in providing guns for a disturbed son. That says it all at this point. The mother has not issued a statement or expressed concern for the victims AFAIK. The father has. I see no reason to criticize him.

ETA: For those sleuthing him in areas unconnected to this event, that violates WS TOS.

I have compassion for the man. He must be devastated. But I am offended when he says things like ' 'Guns are the killers, cut and dry, it's as simple as that…' To me, that is him trying to distance himself from reality. In reality, HIS son was the killer. It's as simple as that.

No new gun laws are going to keep guns out of the hands of someone with no criminal record and/or no history of mental illness. People like this shooter will fall through the cracks unless their friends and family members ACTIVELY watch and report them. It is sad that no one saw what this woman was doing by giving her unstable son weapons. And it is sad that the son's father was so distant and that he had no idea what was happening.

This young man was struggling emotionally and mentally, psychologically. He was a ticking time bomb. He lived in a tiny one bedroom apt. with his troubled mom and 14 weapons. Dad lived in an upscale suburb with his new family in a nice middle class home. Is it too much to expect a father to have some kind of an awareness of what was going on with his special needs son? He seemed to be completely out of the loop about his son's life. So I guess that is why his comments about our gun laws bothered me so much. IMO, he seemed to be putting it ALL on the guns and putting no responsibility upon his son, nor on his own lack of knowledge about what was going on in his troubled son's life. JMO

I do not think it is judgmental to say he should have known more about what was going on with his special needs son. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Seems like what the shooter's mother thinks

I wonder if she will have to give up her guns now, or if she'll want to?

 

[GutInstinct]

From the People article:

"He talks about other mass killers, and says, 'These people were denied everything they deserved and wanted.' "

I wonder who he's specifically discussing. I can't think of any who were denied everything, though yes, some had terrible lives.

Hey Blue Sneakers, JMO - on what this 'might' mean based on my reading the posts on that 'site' immediately after name was released. The narrative goes like this: there are 'normies' (white men who have it made, eg. good looks, job, career, gfriend, etc.). There there are the 'robots' - those on that horrid site that label themselves as such and ones who do NOT have it made (no looks, job, career, gfriend, etc.) And, how "we" (the robots) don't have a chance so ...

 

[human]

From the People article:

"He talks about other mass killers, and says, 'These people were denied everything they deserved and wanted.' "

I wonder who he's specifically discussing. I can't think of any who were denied everything, though yes, some had terrible lives.

Girlfriends?

Maybe that is the answer. Make a robot gf that meets their needs because I am afraid that having a relationship with these killers is not possible for very long.