OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #2

[threecrazykids]

From the People article:

"He talks about other mass killers, and says, 'These people were denied everything they deserved and wanted.' "

I wonder who he's specifically discussing. I can't think of any who were denied everything, though yes, some had terrible lives.

I have been following along and not commenting but this really caught my eye:

"He talks about other mass killers, and says, 'These people were denied everything they deserved and wanted.'

The word DESERVED really irks me. What exactly was it that these mass killers "DESERVED" that they didn't get? I personally believe there are VERY few things on this earth that people DESERVE. Want? Absolutely. Need? Possibly.

I have a feeling this is yet another circumstance of a generational expectation that we has a society have apparently "failed" while bringing up the snowflakes of the world. This assumption that people aren't getting what they "DESERVE" just infuriates me! Everyone deserves a few things in their lifetime...to name a few: Love, Understanding, Acceptance, Forgiveness...and maybe a few more.

But I have a feeling that all of these things he thinks his people "deserve" are nothing short of materialistic, maybe even narcissistic beliefs. That they "deserve" a girlfriend, that they "deserve" a high paying job, that they "deserve" yada yada yada. No one on this earth DESERVES those things. Those people that he loves to hate are all the "people next door". The ultimate failure of Keeping Up with the Jones's.

Do we as a society sometimes envy others and their supposed perfect lives? Sure! But for NORMAL people, that may trigger someone to actually go after those dreams, work harder, meet like-minded people who share interests to develop a circle of friends with similar interests etc. NORMAL people don't take to the dark side of the web and seek out and make a name for themselves via some sort of mass slaughter.

That is a direct lack of coping skills. No two ways about it. Wanting something is one thing - but believing you DESERVE things in this world? Just pisses me off to no end.

:banghead:

 

[Lilibet]

I agree that the mom's may have helped create the distance. But a father still has personal and moral responsibility to be involved with their kids, especially special needs/troubled ones that are struggling, imo. Maybe all of these fathers did try and reach out to their kids and were rejected by them. IDK. But I do know that the sons felt abandoned and rejected by their fathers for whatever reason. Maybe it was the mom's poisoning their minds with those beliefs. IDK.

I totally agree with you about the personal and moral responsibility that absentee Dads have to be involved with their kids, struggling or not. If these fathers abdicated that responsibility, shame on them! My dh saw a lot of this when he taught elementary school. Forming a solid relationship with a child is not easy, even when they live with you. With a troubled child, it can be even more daunting. If you only see the child on weekends...it's extremely difficult. We just don't know enough to put Dads in the hot seat yet IMO.

Wonky brain chemistry can cause feelings of abandonment and rejection, even when reality says otherwise (personal experience and research). Figuring out and solving that part of the issue could go a long way toward helping these kids before they take action.

It's truly a complex tragedy.

 

[katydid23]

Gut Instinct,
I totally agree. My younger brother is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. he had an onset of mental issues at about age 19 or 20. It was devastating to our family. But as his mental problems worsened, the state of California opened up the mental hospitals and let them all close down. There was literally no place to seek proper help for my brother. he bounced arond on the streets for a decade until we finally got him to take his meds consistently. he has been pretty stable recently. But when he has an outburst or breakdown, there is no place to go except jail. It is very sad.

 

[katydid23]

I totally agree with you about the personal and moral responsibility that absentee Dads have to be involved with their kids, struggling or not. If these fathers abdicated that responsibility, shame on them! My dh saw a lot of this when he taught elementary school. Forming a solid relationship with a child is not easy, even when they live with you. With a troubled child, it can be even more daunting. If you only see the child on weekends...it's extremely difficult. We just don't know enough to put Dads in the hot seat yet IMO.

Wonky brain chemistry can cause feelings of abandonment and rejection, even when reality says otherwise (personal experience and research). Figuring out and solving that part of the issue could go a long way toward helping these kids before they take action.

It's truly a complex tragedy.

I totally agree with all of the above.

 

[bluesneakers]

Gut Instinct,
I totally agree. My younger brother is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. he had an onset of mental issues at about age 19 or 20. It was devastating to our family. But as his mental problems worsened, the state of California opened up the mental hospitals and let them all close down. There was literally no place to seek proper help for my brother. he bounced arond on the streets for a decade until we finally got him to take his meds consistently. he has been pretty stable recently. But when he has an outburst or breakdown, there is no place to go except jail. It is very sad.

How is he taking meds without being under a doctor's care?

It's sad that some people can't get real treatment until it's breakdown time. Like 10 appointments per year and get your meds filled regularly is a prescription that applies to everyone with a serious mental illness, but it's just not one size fits all. Not even close. Some places offer decent day treatment programs where people can check in and be checked on, or even have someone looking out for them, but if you're not in a major city (or near a major university) you can really just be left out there on your own until you're in crisis.

 

[GutInstinct]

I totally agree with you about the personal and moral responsibility that absentee Dads have to be involved with their kids, struggling or not. If these fathers abdicated that responsibility, shame on them! My dh saw a lot of this when he taught elementary school. Forming a solid relationship with a child is not easy, even when they live with you. With a troubled child, it can be even more daunting. If you only see the child on weekends...it's extremely difficult. We just don't know enough to put Dads in the hot seat yet IMO.

Wonky brain chemistry can cause feelings of abandonment and rejection, even when reality says otherwise (personal experience and research). Figuring out and solving that part of the issue could go a long way toward helping these kids before they take action.

It's truly a complex tragedy.

Good post. Was thinking... We all wonder if society has always been this way, or have (things like this) gotten worse?
Once again, referring back to reading that horrific thread, the offender's fellow robots, went to great lengths to acknowledge and agree that 'the offender' was UGLY. Yes, Ugly. He called himself ugly and showed his picture rather than an anonymous gravatar. In response, his online 'friends' confirmed he was indeed, quite ugly.

So - my point is this -----
Ten years ago, there was no internet for people to go on and commiserate with those like themselves. For this madman, his online 'friends' encouraged him to move forward! Ughhhh. So yes, I think it is worse than it used to be in our society. But then this gets all really deep, right? - becuse social media, itself, has become a weapon to facilitate madness. Oooy.

 

[katydid23]

How is he taking meds without being under a doctor's care?

It's sad that some people can't get real treatment until it's breakdown time. Like 10 appointments per year and get your meds filled regularly is a prescription that applies to everyone with a serious mental illness, but it's just not one size fits all. Not even close. Some places offer decent day treatment programs where people can check in and be checked on, or even have someone looking out for them, but if you're not in a major city (or near a major university) you can really just be left out there on your own until you're in crisis.

He has been , at times, under doctors 'care.' It consists of quick 10 minute visits to renew his meds. but they seem to work for him so that is all good. He has occasionally visited some of the day time programs to play chess and to use the computers, but his paranoia keeps him from going very often. But our family bought him a small condo and he has his monthly SSI checks so he is pretty stable in his home life now. Mom takes him groceries every Tuesday. :wink:

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I totally agree with you about the personal and moral responsibility that absentee Dads have to be involved with their kids, struggling or not. If these fathers abdicated that responsibility, shame on them! My dh saw a lot of this when he taught elementary school. Forming a solid relationship with a child is not easy, even when they live with you. With a troubled child, it can be even more daunting. If you only see the child on weekends...it's extremely difficult. We just don't know enough to put Dads in the hot seat yet IMO.

Wonky brain chemistry can cause feelings of abandonment and rejection, even when reality says otherwise (personal experience and research). Figuring out and solving that part of the issue could go a long way toward helping these kids before they take action.

It's truly a complex tragedy.

RBBM

I agree with your statement - but I'm not ready to throw mom under the bus either.
We don't know if his living with mom was by design or he simply had no where else to go. Sometimes moms are left to pick up the pieces for troubled kids.

She won't get the "mother of the year" award but I don't hold her responsible for the actions of her adult son. Jmo

 

[Lilibet]

Gut Instinct,
I totally agree. My younger brother is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. he had an onset of mental issues at about age 19 or 20. It was devastating to our family. But as his mental problems worsened, the state of California opened up the mental hospitals and let them all close down. There was literally no place to seek proper help for my brother. he bounced arond on the streets for a decade until we finally got him to take his meds consistently. he has been pretty stable recently. But when he has an outburst or breakdown, there is no place to go except jail. It is very sad.

I'm so sorry you are having this experience, Katy. It's a problem in Oregon too, and everywhere. I don't have links, but IIRC, the "rights" of the mentally ill was the main reason behind the closing of mental hospitals. I'm sure there were noble reasons, based on horror stories ("One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"), but the result has been a horror story for the mentally ill on the streets (and their families) and the communities they roam. Very sad, indeed.

This ties in with what I said earlier about rights not being absolute, and the complexity of deciding whose right takes precedence in a given situation.

 

[GutInstinct]

Gut Instinct,
I totally agree. My younger brother is a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. he had an onset of mental issues at about age 19 or 20. It was devastating to our family. But as his mental problems worsened, the state of California opened up the mental hospitals and let them all close down. There was literally no place to seek proper help for my brother. he bounced arond on the streets for a decade until we finally got him to take his meds consistently. he has been pretty stable recently. But when he has an outburst or breakdown, there is no place to go except jail. It is very sad.

Katydid. Thank you for your post. I know. I know. I know. I know.

And it hurts so deeply (for the family). And you feel so helpless. And there is shame involved. And denial. And fear. And uncertainty. But most of all, no where to go, no where to turn, no way to get help. UNLESS --- the ONLY way one can be committed is if they, themselves admit they are suicidal (a danger to themselves or others). And by going this route, everything becomes even more dramatic, which is not a good thing. It heightens the fear and feelings of the ill, being rushed to an emergency room and then rolled and locked behind closed metal doors.

I'm getting upset - so will give this a break. xoxoxo Thanks for hanging with me. :freakedout::rant::chillpill:

 

[bluesneakers]

Good post. Was thinking... We all wonder if society has always been this way, or have (things like this) gotten worse?
Once again, referring back to reading that horrific thread, the offender's fellow robots, went to great lengths to acknowledge and agree that 'the offender' was UGLY. Yes, Ugly. He called himself ugly and showed his picture rather than an anonymous gravatar. In response, his online 'friends' confirmed he was indeed, quite ugly.

So - my point is this -----
Ten years ago, there was no internet for people to go on and commiserate with those like themselves. For this madman, his online 'friends' encouraged him to move forward! Ughhhh. So yes, I think it is worse than it used to be in our society. But then this gets all really deep, right? - becuse social media, itself, has become a weapon to facilitate madness. Oooy.

Twenty years. But as the news and groups spread they get more and more popular and draw more users. I don't want to think it's getting worse, but... I think it has.

 

[Lilibet]

He has been , at times, under doctors 'care.' It consists of quick 10 minute visits to renew his meds. but they seem to work for him so that is all good. He has occasionally visited some of the day time programs to play chess and to use the computers, but his paranoia keeps him from going very often. But our family bought him a small condo and he has his monthly SSI checks so he is pretty stable in his home life now. Mom takes him groceries every Tuesday. :wink:

He is so fortunate to have your family! This reminds me of WSer Katiecoolady's situation with her younger brother. She has blogged about it, and it's been a struggle, even though AZ has good programs and she has a background in psychiatric nursing and is tenacious. He was doing well the last time she wrote, but there are no guarantees and it's a never-ending project. Hugs to your Mom. And you too!

If only everyone who is mentally ill had this kind of support.

 

[bluesneakers]

Lots of good stuff here...

Mental Illness is the wrong scapegoat after mass shootings

In the shadow of the two-year anniversary of one of the worst mass shootings in American history, at Sandy Hook Elementary School, an extensive new study by two Vanderbilt University researchers challenges common assumptions about gun violence and mental illness that often emerge in the aftermath of mass shootings.

“Gun discourse after mass shootings often perpetuates the fear that ‘some crazy person is going to come shoot me,’” said Metzl, the study’s lead author. “But if you look at the research, it’s not the ‘crazy’ person you have to fear.”

Four myths arise after mass shootings

Their research uncovered four central myths that arise in the aftermath of mass shootings:

- Mental illness causes gun violence.
- Psychiatric diagnosis can predict gun crime before it happens.
- U.S. mass shootings “prove” that we should fear mentally ill loners.
- Because of the complex psychiatric histories of mass shooters, gun control “won’t prevent” mass shootings.

-
More at the link http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/12/mental-illness-wrong-scapegoat-shootings

 

[Bravo]

I finally got a minute to post this. I caught the tail end of a program today and it was about Reagan being shot by Hinkley. Hinkley stated he felt if he had not gotten the gun so easily and a span of time and a lengthy process he felt he would not have carried out the shooting. Now who knows if he was just pandering however his comment struck me. If it was difficult and he had not carried it out how would we ever know he was having these thoughts. Just thought I would share this. If there were stronger background checks we would never have a stat as to who it may have stopped?????

 

[Sonya610]

Lots of good stuff here...

Mental Illness is the wrong scapegoat after mass shootings





Four myths arise after mass shootings

Their research uncovered four central myths that arise in the aftermath of mass shootings:

- Mental illness causes gun violence.
- Psychiatric diagnosis can predict gun crime before it happens.
- U.S. mass shootings “prove” that we should fear mentally ill loners.
- Because of the complex psychiatric histories of mass shooters, gun control “won’t prevent” mass shootings.

-
More at the link http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/12/mental-illness-wrong-scapegoat-shootings

Wow...talk about scewing statistics. They use stats for ALL gun related deaths not mass shootings! Why does the headline include "mass shootings" when the data isn't about mass shooters?

When it comes to gun related murders we know that most are not "mentally ill" in the usual sense, gang banger types account for the largest single group.

 

[Lilibet]

It wasn't anyone's rights. It was all about money.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/
Did Reagan’s Crazy Mental Health Policies Cause Today’s Homelessness?
http://www.povertyinsights.org/2013...al-health-policies-cause-todays-homelessness/

BBM

Thanks for those links. I was referring to the original legislation in CA, which was addressing the rights of the mentally ill. The "legislative intent" listed in the link was not about money. But of course, money entered into the equation later in CA and nationwide. Everyone has suffered because of that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterman–Petris–Short_Act

It was also about the rights of the mentally ill. Some organizations were suing the hospitals over the rights of the patients to be on the streets if they so desired. I remember it well. The ACLU took up the cause and fought for the 'rights' of the mentally ill to NOT be forced into care.

BBM

That's what I was referring to. The original intent of the Lanterman-Petris Short Act was to correct abuses in mental health care and guarantee certain rights to the mentally ill. As is so often the case, what seems like a solution to one problem ends up causing even more serious problems for the larger community.

No one should be forced into care and all citizens have rights. But I doubt Ronald Reagan and his friends cared. They saw a bottom line they liked and took advantage.

eta: You would agree your brother shouldn't have to be locked up if he isn't ill or a danger to others, I assume.

BBM

I think that anyone who is a danger to others should be forced into care until they are clearly able to be unsupervised. I hope my right to be safe enters into this.

I have a 71 yo cousin who has been schizophrenic for 45 years. He lives alone in the family home with minimal supervision by a relative who drops by. He isn't a danger to anyone, and I support his right to be independent. He has enough money so he will never be homeless. But if his condition worsens and he endangers others, I hope he will receive the care he needs, whether he wants it or not. JMO

 

[MotherOcean]

MSM has released some of the info included in the so-called manifesto. Eerie insight inside a broken mind

http://news.yahoo.com/alleged-manifesto-oregon-shooter-reveals-155126291.html

I'm glad this info. has been released. He tells us a lot just in the excerpts. The more we know, the less we must speculate.

He felt hated. Maybe he was. He obviously didn't feel loved. Maybe he wasn't. He said nothing could have prevented it. I believe him!
He says he had aligned himself with demons. I believe that is a strong possibility. So, what caused this horrible tragedy? Emotional Pain. IMO. I don't know what he would have done if he had not had access to guns. Who knows? I don't; but I do know that pain like that destroys, demons are real, and sometimes evil wins the battle.

 

[Lilibet]

Lots of good stuff here...

Mental Illness is the wrong scapegoat after mass shootings

Four myths arise after mass shootings

Their research uncovered four central myths that arise in the aftermath of mass shootings:

- Mental illness causes gun violence.
- Psychiatric diagnosis can predict gun crime before it happens.
- U.S. mass shootings “prove” that we should fear mentally ill loners.
- Because of the complex psychiatric histories of mass shooters, gun control “won’t prevent” mass shootings.

More at the link http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/12/mental-illness-wrong-scapegoat-shootings

That's an interesting study. And has been pointed out, it is talking about all gun violence not just mass shootings. I liked these points.

The authors detail how focusing solely on mental illness ignores those factors that do predict gun violence more broadly:

• Drug and alcohol use
• History of violence
• Access to firearms
• Personal relationship stress

“People are far more likely to be shot by relatives, friends, enemies or acquaintances than they are by lone violent psychopaths,” according to Metzl and MacLeish’s research.

It's the mass shootings that get our attention, but I suspect that the shooters known by their victims kill more people overall. Usually mental illness is not a factor. But it is in mass shootings IMO. And it certainly is a failure of the system as they state here:

The authors argue in the paper that lawmakers and voters should pay much more attention to mental health systems such as access to mental health care, medication and health insurance.
“In a way, it is a failure of the system often that becomes represented as a failure of the individual,” Metzl said

 

[bluesneakers]

That's an interesting study. And has been pointed out, it is talking about all gun violence not just mass shootings. I liked these points.



It's the mass shootings that get our attention, but I suspect that the shooters known by their victims kill more people overall. Usually mental illness is not a factor. But it is in mass shootings IMO. And it certainly is a failure of the system as they state here:

Both were included because the point of the article was to separate the two, so mental illness doesn't keep getting brought into mass shootings the way it does.

 

[KaaBoom]

As far as helping all schools be a little safer I do think hiring armed and trained security guards is a good thing to do. Here is why I feel that way.

Some campuses like the Oregon school could have benefited by just having 1 on campus since the campus is relatively small. If the security guard was trained and armed and was given a golf cart , he could get to any part of the campus within minutes.

1. Nobody, and I mean nobody is going to pay for that, so that plan is irrelevant. UCC had already looked into having armed guards, and determined that they couldn't afford it. Teachers are already underpaid and people won't even fund the schools decently so they can teach the kids, let alone hire armed guards.

2. There was an armed guard at Columbine High School, and he was unable to stop the massacre, so that would not stop school shootings, even if the money would magically fall out of the sky.

There is one thing and one thing only that could solve this problem, but unfortunately that is the one thing we are not allowed to talk about in this forum, or even in this country. So the problem will just continue, and probably get worse.