OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #2

[katydid23]

You asked "So the father can just walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility for a troubled son?"

It happens all the time and I think you know that. Take a look at the missing forums here. Not all of those people were kidnapped or attacked by bears.

I know it happens all the time. Let's look at where some of the highest statistics of gun violence are located and then look at the absentee father rate there in those same neighborhoods. Maybe it is important to see how we can put the family structure back together for our own public good.

 

[bluesneakers]

Is it your responsibility to 'take care of yourself' if you are mentally ill ?

What are you getting at? Just ask.

 

[katydid23]

He used guns to kill people. He bought them, bought ammunition, loaded his guns, took his guns to school and shot up a whole bunch of people. That's what guns do. It's on him and his guns, not on his dad, imo.

Not sure about his mother, because they were living together and she might have supplied the weapons to her son. She bears some responsibility, imo, but I don't know all the details.

That's right. HE shot those people. it is on him. And he was reportedly troubled all of his life and diagnosed with mental health issues. So even though that article likes to say Mental health is not an issue, in this case it was.

 

[KaaBoom]

How can it be the annual death rate when Norway, for example, has had one mass shooting in that time?

All of the countries had 1 or 2 mass shootings, except for France with 3. The US had app. 28 is what I deduce from this data. Norway, for instance, at the top of the list had 1 shooting and a population of 5.2 million. All the countries above the U.S. have small populations between 2.06 and 11.2 million. All the countries below the U.S. have larger populations between 8.02 and 142 million (5 are above 64 million). The smallest fluctuation in the countries with a small population will throw the numbers out, hence why they're at the top of the list. If you add up all the non US countries, it's a different picture. The U.S. has a higher fatality rate per 1 million than all the other European countries combined. In other words, these are meaningless comparisons and show how statistics can be abused.

The source page has ads for gun books all over it. They clearly have an agenda. So I wouldn't have much confidence in their data.

 

[katydid23]

What are you getting at? Just ask.

You said it is up to the individual to 'grow up' and take care of themselves. And I said is that true also in the case of people with mental health issues? I know that my brother cannot fully care for himself. if my mother had not been so proactive he would have been dead or in prison, most likely.

I believe that a parent has a lifelong responsibility to their children if that child has mental/emotional disabilities. You cannot just wash your hands of them and walk away when they turn 18. JMO

ETA:
" ...but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. "

 

[Bravo]

I truly wish there was an answer to this. As we all do. I have read every single post here and they are thought provoking. I live in Canada and the horse has not left the barn. From time to time it may poke it's head out. Due to our strict hand gun laws. As I sit here we have a huge gun safe filled with hunting guns. We have property outside our city for duck hunting. I get sport. I get hand guns for protection or collectors. Many of my American Family have hand guns for protection and have followed all protocols. I dont get the reason why anyone should be allowed to purchase an assault weapon. Yes I realize no assault weapon used in this case. I dont get why there are not just simply rigid background checks no matter how you purchase a weapon???? I just dont get it. IMO the right is not a right but a privilege. You are responsible. Passed a safety course and are storing it based on Law.

 

[bluesneakers]

That's right. HE shot those people. it is on him. And he was reportedly troubled all of his life and diagnosed with mental health issues. So even though that article likes to say Mental health is not an issue, in this case it was.

I'm not so sure.

What illness was he diagnosed with? Was he being treated? How long had he been diagnosed?

 

[human]

Lots of good stuff here...

Mental Illness is the wrong scapegoat after mass shootings





Four myths arise after mass shootings

Their research uncovered four central myths that arise in the aftermath of mass shootings:

- Mental illness causes gun violence.
- Psychiatric diagnosis can predict gun crime before it happens.
- U.S. mass shootings “prove” that we should fear mentally ill loners.
- Because of the complex psychiatric histories of mass shooters, gun control “won’t prevent” mass shootings.

-
More at the link http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/12/mental-illness-wrong-scapegoat-shootings

There are plenty of mentally ill all over the world, but they are not going on rampage killings like in the US. One in Norway that kills a lot of people. A couple others in Europe. Sorry, metally ill is not the whole piece

 

[Hatfield]

I'm about as hard-line in supporting the First Amendment as the Second. But I have to recognize that sites like 4chan create a unique community for the disturbed. In everyday life, people like this Oregon are misfits, and they know that their thoughts and desires are abnormal. But on sites like 4chan, they become part of a community of like-minded people who make all those twisted dark violent tendencies seem "normal."

I really think it fosters the idea in people like that that what they want to do is "okay" somehow.

It's very disturbing. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about it.

I agree that it is possible that the internet may have contributed to this particular person going out and finally acting on his demons.

There is a danger today that wasn't there 20 years ago. Years ago that same person like him would sit alone and have the same sick thoughts but maybe would not ever act out but in todays world when he is able to find a group of like minded it gave him a support group that encouraged his twisted thoughts. Maybe it pushed him over the edge.

It is very scary to think about. The predisposition of lost and sick souls like him was there before but the internet now gives these types of people extra support they never had before. And the support is the wrong type of support. Rather than helping someone get better the support was to accept that nothing is ever going to get better and to lash out at whatever they wanted to blame for their problems.

It was like a Therapy Group from Hell for him for all the wrong reasons.

 

[katydid23]

I'm not so sure.

What illness was he diagnosed with? Was he being treated? How long had he been diagnosed?

He was diagnosed in childhood. He attended a school for those with mental/emotional disabilities. Both the mother and son had been diagnosed with Aspergers according to post by the mother. [ heard it on KFI radio today and they said it was from todays Ny Times article]

 

[bluesneakers]

You said it is up to the individual to 'grow up' and take care of themselves. And I said is that true also in the case of people with mental health issues? I know that my brother cannot fully care for himself. if my mother had not been so proactive he would have been dead or in prison, most likely.

I believe that a parent has a lifelong responsibility to their children if that child has mental/emotional disabilities. You cannot just wash your hands of them and walk away when they turn 18. JMO

ETA:
" ...but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. "

Somehow he managed to get himself up and dressed and to school that day without his dad's help. Remarkable for a 26yo.

 

[katydid23]

There are plenty of mentally ill all over the world, but they are not going on rampage killings like in the US. One in Norway that kills a lot of people. A couple others in Europe. Sorry, metally ill is not the whole piece

we have a lot of copycat killings going on here. Americans seem to be obsessed with 'celebrities.' Many want to be 'famous' no matter if it is for good or evil. Lots of kids seek notoriety on the net and becoming a mass killer brings some dark glory these days.

 

[Jabarn]

wow. This fits our most recent mass shooters to a T. And I think that it also has an element of 'gamers' in it too. Lost of troubled young men drowned their sorrows in violent video games for years. And being a 'PsuedoCommander' is a perfect description for their endgame.

I think Harper-Mercer's actions were a product of a perfect storm. 1) A disability that caused him to require special services that did not continue, as far as we can tell, after he aged out of special education, 2) Rejection, from his perspective, maybe in truth, 3) A resulting skewed view of the world (personality schism) with his ego central, and 4) easy access to guns and freedom to move them without being noticed.

 

[katydid23]

Somehow he managed to get himself up and dressed and to school that day without his dad's help. Remarkable for a 26yo.

So? Is that evidence that he could 'take care of himself?' My brother can get up and get dressed by himself too. But he also tapes black construction paper over the tv screen so the CIA cannot see him when he undresses.

 

[bluesneakers]

He was diagnosed in childhood. He attended a school for those with mental/emotional disabilities. Both the mother and son had been diagnosed with Aspergers according to post by the mother. [ heard it on KFI radio today and they said it was from todays Ny Times article]

Diagnosed with which mental illness? Does he still have it? Is it being treated? How did his mental illness play a role in what happened? Just because someone who has a mental illness does something it's not always due to the illness.

People can quit their jobs, drink too much, not pay their rent, beat up their spouses, and it's not always their illnesses fault. I don't see how this shooter's mystery illness had anything to do with what happened. Sometimes people who don't have mental illnesses do those things too.

 

[human]

And if he had a car, he could drive, and he was literate enuff to be on the net and he was literate enuff to leave a note,

He was working out,

He was capable of lving.

 

[bluesneakers]

So? Is that evidence that he could 'take care of himself?' My brother can get up and get dressed by himself too. But he also tapes black construction paper over the tv screen so the CIA cannot see him when he undresses.

I'm not talking about your brother. I'm talking about adults behaving as adults and not children.

 

[katydid23]

I think Harper-Mercer's actions were a product of a perfect storm. 1) A disability that caused him to require special services that did not continue, as far as we can tell, after he aged out of special education, 2) Rejection, from his perspective, maybe in truth, 3) A resulting skewed view of the world (personality schism) with his ego central, and 4) easy access to guns and freedom to move them without being noticed.

EXACTLY. I agree with all of the above. It is very much like Lanza and Rodgers too. Gamers who felt entitled and felt isolated and rejected but had big egos and were 'resentment collectors. '

 

[katydid23]

I'm not talking about your brother. I'm talking about adults behaving as adults and not children.

You mean like Mercer? Was he acting like an adult or like a child?

 

[bluesneakers]

You mean like Mercer? Was he acting like an adult or like a child?

Do you think his father should still have been living at home with him, driving him to school every day?