GUILTY OR - Pamela Wolosz, 52, killed, daughter injured, 12yo son charged, 10 Jan 2017

[Lilibet]

I agree with you. If anything it may just indicate some strain. Whether it directly contributed to this is hard to say right now.

I can't really begin to speculate what happened here or why, but I do find it odd none of the MSM reports clarify how it was determined the son did this, as LE statements seem to leave no doubt he did. Did he confess? Was he covered in blood and still holding the weapon? Did grandma witness it? It will be interesting to see how things unfold.

There are a lot of reasons a kid will lash out at the family - prior abuses, learned behavior, feelings of isolation or neglect, bullying from an older sibling, anger at discipline or restrictions being set (like being told no to stay home from school), feeling abandoned (say he had expressed a problem he was having but felt no one was listening or helping him),and then, of course, there are mental disorders that can lead to violent rages. I don't believe video games or music or books make kids violent - the problems and tendencies already exist and it is the child that goes looking for ways to manifest those feelings in violent and dark things. JMO.

I read through all the news reports and found some additional details:

http://www.mailtribune.com/news/201...boy-accused-of-killing-mother-injuring-sister

"To my knowledge we don't have any indication that this young man has had a troubled past," O'Meara said.

Jim Holmes... has a blog in which he describes himself as a "work at home" father.

http://www.dailytidings.com/news/20170112/boy-12-pleads-not-guilty-to-murder

O'Meara on Wednesday confirmed that Jim Holmes was "out of the state" during the attack.

When asked about Holmes' demeanor when officers arrived, O'Meara said, "That's another piece that I'm not going to want to get into, because that strays into the area that the district attorney's going to be getting into very heavily, his state of mind at the time, and I don't want to stray into the (DA's) area."

O'Meara added that APD received two 9-1-1 calls from family members but declined to say who made the calls. "And I'm not being any more specific than that on purpose," he said.

I wonder if the attack was directed at mom and sister just got in the way or was it directed at both of them? Why was grandma spared?

BBM

Thanks for pulling out those quotes. LE holds a lot of things close to the vest (unfortunately for us). I imagine it was fairly obvious that he did it since LE got there quickly. His sister may have been conscious enough to say. His clothing might have made it obvious. His grandmother may have heard enough to know. I'm also speculating that there may have been someone else in the home at the time, since two different 911 calls came in. While the daughter may have been able to make a call, LE's refusal to say who made them makes me think someone else was there. Perhaps another family member was visiting.

The description of the house on Zillow indicates that the layout would allow two families to live there. So I'm imagining that the grandma had a separate living space (perhaps on the lower level) and may have heard something awful happening and probably called 911, while staying protected.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/922-Morton-St-Ashland-OR-97520/48355493_zpid/

My initial thought is that the daughter was hurt while intervening, but the attack may have been directed at both. Determining that intent will have a bearing on whether he is charged as a juvenile or adult...stating the obvious.

I tend to agree with you that violent video games, etc don't necessarily make kids violent in and of themselves. There are usually other factors at play when a child kills. But I do think a steady diet of violent games can break down barriers and make killing much easier, whether impulsive or deliberate. Doesn't the military use them in training to get soldiers used to killing?

There are many, many horrible games and subscriptions to other gaming channels on Pamela's YouTube account, plus what may have been borderline *advertiser censored*...dating back a year to when the boy was about 11. The game I noted was not the worst. Something was fueling his fascination or obsession with this stuff.

LE gets the difficult job of figuring out his state of mind and whether the games are a factor. Interviews with his friends will no doubt help. Again, what they find out will also have a bearing on whether he is charged as a juvenile or adult. I don't envy the investigators at all. They are in unfamiliar and distressing territory for our community. But I'm quite confident in their abilities and I know they will bring in help if needed as they have done previously.
JMO

 

[wendybtn]

Either the child is mentally disturbed (organic disease) or the family dynamics were very unhealthy in that house. But you could find another home with the same situation but no one gets hurt. It is still incredibly tough to figure out which person will harm others and which one won't.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Either the child is mentally disturbed (organic disease) or the family dynamics were very unhealthy in that house. But you could find another home with the same situation but no one gets hurt. It is still incredibly tough to figure out which person will harm others and which one won't.

He may be neither. One doesn't have to be mentally disturbed to do something like this.

During the past years of reading numerous cases where a young offender tries or does murder his parent/siblings or both the motives seem to be more based in narcissistic behavior or having a conduct deviance disorder or some type of other disorder which doesn't prevent them from knowing right from wrong..

Children who are abused rarely murder anyone much less attempting to murder other family members. In a lot of these cases the defendant came from a good home and were fully supported by his/her parents yet they seem to fly into a murderous rage over something totally trivial.

We have seen children murder a parent/s because their x-box or computer was taken away when they were grounded or because they did not want to do chores or adhere to any rules and guidelines the parents had set forth for them to follow. We have seen where a young murderer would fly into a rage if someone in the home touches something they believe is solely their own material property.. even killing their younger sibling for touching it and the nonsensical motives go on and on. We have also seen cases where the young offenders didn't get their way about something and they flew into a murderous rage.

I haven't seen anything to support this young killer came from an abusive home with abusive parents.

What I have seen in most of these recent youthful offenders is many had the 'me, me, me' syndrome and they cant accept the word 'no.'

You are right. We are no closer to being able to predict beforehand if someone will become a murderer or not.

Its alarming that we are now seeing murderers even as young as 8 or 9 years old and most of them show absolutely no remorse for what they have done nor do they ever express any remorse while even admitting they had good parents when being interviewed in prison.

 

[Lilibet]

An editor at the Medford Mail Tribune explains why the paper went ahead and revealed the name of the juvenile charged with murder.

http://blogs.esouthernoregon.com/in...we-identified-a-12-year-old-accused-murderer/

 

[Lilibet]

Either the child is mentally disturbed (organic disease) or the family dynamics were very unhealthy in that house. But you could find another home with the same situation but no one gets hurt. It is still incredibly tough to figure out which person will harm others and which one won't.

And sadly it could be both mental disturbance and unhealthy family dynamics...or neither as obe posts below. This is why it's so hard to predict who will harm others. Too many options.

He may be neither. One doesn't have to be mentally disturbed to do something like this.

During the past years of reading numerous cases where a young offender tries or does murder his parent/siblings or both the motives seem to be more based in narcissistic behavior or having a conduct deviance disorder or some type of other disorder which doesn't prevent them from knowing right from wrong..

Children who are abused rarely murder anyone much less attempting to murder other family members. In a lot of these cases the defendant came from a good home and were fully supported by his/her parents yet they seem to fly into a murderous rage over something totally trivial.

We have seen children murder a parent/s because their x-box or computer was taken away when they were grounded or because they did not want to do chores or adhere to any rules and guidelines the parents had set forth for them to follow. We have seen where a young murderer would fly into a rage if someone in the home touches something they believe is solely their own material property.. even killing their younger sibling for touching it and the nonsensical motives go on and on. We have also seen cases where the young offenders didn't get their way about something and they flew into a murderous rage.

I haven't seen anything to support this young killer came from an abusive home with abusive parents.

What I have seen in most of these recent youthful offenders is many had the 'me, me, me' syndrome and they cant accept the word 'no.'

You are right. We are no closer to being able to predict beforehand if someone will become a murderer or not.

Its alarming that we are now seeing murderers even as young as 8 or 9 years old and most of them show absolutely no remorse for what they have done nor do they ever express any remorse while even admitting they had good parents when being interviewed in prison.

Yes, narcissistic behavior or another disorder could certainly be possible or probable. I don't see abuse either. Uncontrolled rage can be for many reasons and is often unpredictable and unexpected even by parents. He was clearly obsessively* drawn to violence in the video games he played. Rage and all that practice can create a perfect storm IMO.

* I say "obsessively" because of the huge number of games posted on the YouTube channel in the past year, not because of anything I personally know. It's JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Just to stay within TOS I want to make clear I'm posting this with the intent of reporting on community response, not soliciting funds. Jim has worked in other states, so some of the money has come from companies he worked for and workmates, not just Ashland. There was no mention of his son on that I could see.

http://ktvl.com/news/local/community-expresses-support-for-husband-of-slain-ashland-woman

 

[Lilibet]

I should correct myself...I think. I have indicated that the videos on Pamela's YouTube channel were video games her son could play. Looking more closely...at a safe distance...and reading comments on some, it appears that they are videos of other people playing the games. So they are not interactive, as I thought originally. At least that's my impression without running each video. But even though it seems to be a step removed from "hands on" practice, they are still extremely violent graphic videos absorbed by the malleable mind of a boy who stabbed his mother.

 

[dolls_]

It sounds like the videos are "Let's Plays". They're a type of video made by many different people that are basically the creator(s) playing a video game and reacting to it. They're made either as normal videos or live streams that people can come watch as the person plays in real time. Sometimes there are overarching plots or stories (made up by the video makers or part of the game) and other times there's not. They're very popular these days, especially with kids around his age. IMO these types of videos/games do not cause violence, but either way it sounds like he was watching "Lets Play" videos of violent video games.

 

[psychvigilante]

Unspeakable tragedy indeed.
How are they going to prosecute him? Seeing as his mother died and he badly injured his sister. I wonder if they're now conducting psychological examination on the 12 yr old.

 

[Lilibet]

It sounds like the videos are "Let's Plays". They're a type of video made by many different people that are basically the creator(s) playing a video game and reacting to it. They're made either as normal videos or live streams that people can come watch as the person plays in real time. Sometimes there are overarching plots or stories (made up by the video makers or part of the game) and other times there's not. They're very popular these days, especially with kids around his age. IMO these types of videos/games do not cause violence, but either way it sounds like he was watching "Lets Play" videos of violent video games.

:welcome: dolls! Thank you so much for elaborating on what I was trying to say. I clearly know nothing about "Let's Plays" or video games or YouTube. I was embarrassed to realize after digging a little deeper that they couldn't actually be played. :doh:

I agree that violent video games (or songs or movies, etc) don't literally cause violence. My own very kind son-in-law plays them. I've been thinking about this a LOT since I found the YouTube channel. This is just my opinion and I haven't done any research, but I think there has to be a certain type of person who is more affected by a steady diet of violent images to the point of acting with violence if a catalyst exists. Otherwise every boy who watches or plays the games would be creating mayhem. I have a hard time believing that there is NO effect, however.

In a few people, a steady diet of violent images and virtual violence possibly breaks down normal barriers to acting with violence. Many of us have probably experienced getting used to something (a TV show) with repeat exposure that initially shocked and/or repelled us. We get used to things and accept them, like the frog placed in cold water gradually cooking. How this happens, especially in a boy's brain to the point of violence, I don't know. But it may be an aspect of their particular genetics and brain chemistry, personality, upbringing or all of the above.

Similarly, not all young people who drink regularly become alcoholics. But we have no accurate way to predict who will. And, in this, and other cases of violence that happen to be preceded by watching violent video games, we are left saying "How did this happen?!" I think it would be interesting and instructive if something could be measured in the brain while violent games are played, so differences could be studied. But I don't think all the research in the world will stop these incidents, sadly.
JMO, MOO

 

[Lilibet]

Unspeakable tragedy indeed.
How are they going to prosecute him? Seeing as his mother died and he badly injured his sister. I wonder if they're now conducting psychological examination on the 12 yr old.

:welcome: psychvigilante Whether this case remains in juvenile court or goes to adult court remains to be seen, as does what the ultimate charge will be. I'm positive he is being carefully examined and a "profile" is being put together. I pity the investigators trying to make sense of this, if it's even possible.

 

[Ambitioned]

Howdy!!

This is a very tragic story!

Even though the "liked" vids are streaming, the subscriber is usually playing those games as well if not being monitored. My little brother started to venture down that road of violent games/anime but my mom pulled the plug on it fast.

I saw a comment elsewhere about Columbine. IIRC, there was a big debate over "Doom" affecting Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. As a result, the American Medical Association has previously thought about adding video game addictions to the list of mental illnesses and called for parents to watch their children more closely.

Like you said, everyone's brain chemistry is different. We've seen people who can play games and then move on to other things. And we've seen addictive behavior that concerns withdrawal — specifically, how people react when they lose their gaming fix.

Brain chemistry -- such a complex thing. I can drink three pots of reg coffee a day and not be affected. In fact I can fall asleep easily. My mom on the other hand is like this if she doesn't get her coffee fix.

[video]https://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/04/15/635963350701046469559591679_caffeine.gif[/video]

Here's a good story from a gamer who talks about becoming anxious if they didn't get their fix. They decided to pause the gaming, step back, and get some proper sleep.

Good catch on the YouTube channel! I'm very happy you sent it to LE.

 

[Lilibet]

Thanks for the very interesting post Ambitioned. Good for your Mom. I love the coffee gif!!

A question for you, or anyone, about playing the game while watching the video on YouTube. Do people buy all these games or are they available online for free? You can tell how much I know about gaming! Because the YouTube channel is in his mother's name, not his, it strikes me that he may be doing this surreptitiously. I assume, or at least hope, his parents didn't know, so how could he buy these games without their knowledge? At twelve. How did your brother access them? Thanks!

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm glad you asked!

He got them from Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/) And his friends also. Steam has both free and pay games. They also played Minecraft and shared the files. There's always ways to bypass the pay system especially with sharing the game modifications. Plus Steam and other companies do take PayPal. So if a child knows the parent's Paypal name and pass, its's open season.

People can get free games from BitTorrent too.

Some games are pay2play such as Runescape, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, etc. They are a small monthly fee usually. It's really a whole other world out there and it's why gamers are advised to do virus scans all the time.

Judging from the content of this YouTube site, I believe you are correct and I highly doubt the parents were even aware of the account even though it had the mom's name.

 

[Ambitioned]

I think this is Zeke's twitter (Judging from the games on there). Just speculation though. The account isn't much and has one tweet.

But, I saw the Gears of War hashtag and forgot to mention one can access YouTube with the newer PlayStations or Xboxes.

 

[Lilibet]

I'm glad you asked!

He got them from Steam (http://store.steampowered.com/) And his friends also. Steam has both free and pay games. They also played Minecraft and shared the files. There's always ways to bypass the pay system especially with sharing the game modifications. Plus Steam and other companies do take PayPal. So if a child knows the parent's Paypal name and pass, its's open season.

People can get free games from BitTorrent too.

Some games are pay2play such as Runescape, World of Warcraft, League of Legends, etc. They are a small monthly fee usually. It's really a whole other world out there and it's why gamers are advised to do virus scans all the time.

Judging from the content of this YouTube site, I believe you are correct and I highly doubt the parents were even aware of the account even though it had the mom's name.

Thanks for furthering my education. I ran across Steam after I posted, while googling where to buy the Assassin game. I think I know the answer to this question (yes?) but just checking to find out if he could have been playing these games online with strangers? Is that possible? If so, that concerns me too. You're right. It is a whole different world and one that parents need to inform themselves about IMO.

 

[policyoftruth501]

Another thing to keep in mind is that at that age the brain is still developing - most importantly the decision making area of the brain. That is the last part of the brain to fully develop. This aspect can just compound any other external issues that may be happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[glf]

Considering the jab the husband made about her animals, I agree it can be taken many ways. My first thought was it could have been an attempt to be humorous. Maybe that was a little inside joke she had with family and friends.
As far as the son is concerned, I really don't know what to say. At his age, kids can be influenced by just about anything that touches them.. I have three teen-age grandkids, and another one turning 13 in Feb. So far, they haven't had any emotional problems. Just praying we don't have! It seems like there is too much peer pressure, and now anybody can get on the internet and find things, including illegal stuff, inappropriate games, and the list goes on and on. And the govt wants to know where the gwn pub is searching yet they don't seem to give a hoot what is available to search by anybody smart enough to look. IE, *advertiser censored* sites available at the click of a button, and a 14 year old is in deep poop if they are caught viewing the junk, but the creep who posts the stuff MIGHT get told "No, no, you shouldn't do that." Something seems to be backwards here.

 

[Lilibet]

Another thing to keep in mind is that at that age the brain is still developing - most importantly the decision making area of the brain. That is the last part of the brain to fully develop. This aspect can just compound any other external issues that may be happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for bringing that point to the discussion. It's very important, maybe the most important consideration.

This article from the University of Rochester states:

The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until he or she is 25 years old or so.
In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part. This is the part of the bran that responds to situations with good judgment and an awareness of long-term consequences. Teens process information with the amygdale. This is the emotional part.
In teen's brains, the connections between the emotional part of the brain and the decision-making center are still developing. That's why when teens are under overwhelming emotional input, they can't explain later what they were thinking. They weren't thinking as much as they were feeling.
BBM

If Zeke is unable to explain what he was thinking during the attack it will make the decision to charge him as a juvenile or adult very difficult.

The article also contains good advice for parents of teens.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

This is short but informative article about how brain development can affect teen actions. In summary it says:

These brain differences don't mean that young people can't make good decisions or tell the difference between right and wrong. It also doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held responsible for their actions. However, an awareness of these differences can help parents, teachers, advocates, and policy makers understand, anticipate, and manage the behavior of adolescents.

https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Familie...-Problem-Solving-and-Decision-Making-095.aspx

 

[Lilibet]

For those who have access, since we can't post it here, Jim Holmes has posted a heartfelt thank you on FB to those who have helped his family. Very nice.