GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #3

[possumheart]

As far as drugs, no arrests, the reports are saying his only prior record was traffic infractions.

He doesn't look like a long-term meth or heroin user at all, but nothing says he couldn't have just started using something. But if he's a long-term creep, he wouldn't have necessarily needed drugs to freak out on a woman and become violent.

They would have to assess him and rule out psychosis at this stage. moo

 

[msthinksalot]

Looks to me like a straight-jacket maybe? Not that I've seen a whole lot of them in person and the ones I can think of were white, but the way the weird angle of his shoulders and the shoulders of the garment (whatever it is) look like one.

It think it's a suicide smock. Check these out:

http://www.preventsuicide.com/products/smock.htm

 

[msthinksalot]

They would have to assess him and rule out psychosis at this stage. moo

I would be absolutely blown out of the water if this guy was psychotic.

I have a relative who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. I've been there while he descended into a psychotic episode. As a rule, schizophrenics rarely hurt others, but are highly likely to kill themselves... usually as a result of their delusions telling them they'd be better killing themselves before "they" or "it" gets to them first.

People who are in the midst of a psychotic episode would not have been able to go to the police station three times, because it is highly likely they would have thought the police to be part of the alien force or conspiracy out to kill them. He would have ran. It is also highly likely, if he was psychotic, that he would have left his house as well... because by the time people get to the point of having an active psychosis, they are thinking that their walls are bugged, their phones are bugged, people are coming in to get them, etc.

I have no magic ball or anything, but I'm not seeing psychosis in his actions.

 

[possumheart]

I would be absolutely blown out of the water if this guy was psychotic.

I have a relative who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. I've been there while he descended into a psychotic episode. As a rule, schizophrenics rarely hurt others, but are highly likely to kill themselves... usually as a result of their delusions telling them they'd be better killing themselves before "they" or "it" gets to them first.

People who are in the midst of a psychotic episode would not have been able to go to the police station three times, because it is highly likely they would have thought the police to be part of the alien force or conspiracy out to kill them. He would have ran. It is also highly likely, if he was psychotic, that he would have left his house as well... because by the time people get to the point of having an active psychosis, they are thinking that their walls are bugged, their phones are bugged, people are coming in to get them, etc.

I have no magic ball or anything, but I'm not seeing psychosis in his actions.

My brother has paranoid schizophrenia but is highly functioning ie. he would have been going to the police station to feel important and be on the team with the police (thereby subverting paranoia). He has also killed animals.
So we will have to agree to differ as there is a fair bit of range between sufferers.

 

[msthinksalot]

My brother has paranoid schizophrenia but is highly functioning ie. he would have been going to the police station to feel important and be on the team with the police (thereby subverting paranoia). He has also killed animals.
So we will have to agree to differ as there is a fair bit of range between sufferers.

Fair enough. My relative is also high functioning and runs his own business. Nobody who didn't know he was ill would even guess what happens with his mind at times. The difference is, his delusions are always quite frightening to him, but they've never told him to harm anyone or anything. His take him into this hell where the entire world is this really scary place that is essentially a nice illusion with horror underneath. Everything has a sinister side hiding under the surface. When he is ill, he's terrified of uniforms, cars with writing, even sometimes just plain old license/number plates if he can discern a message in them (which is often). The main thing with him, though, and what his psychiatrist told us, is that the delusions are always persecutory in nature. I understand that to be the norm, and violent acting-out to be an exception to the norm.

That being said, there is a man here in Oregon, Donn Spinosa (presently being held in the state mental hospital), who is a schizophrenic who murdered his ex-wife, Kathleen Relay, in 1997. It's a very sad case, and an interesting case if you are at all interested in mental illness, the healthcare system (or lack of) and criminal justice. I read a study recently that said that in the US, about 30% of our inmates are mentally ill and that a huge chunk of jail and prison budgets goes toward purchasing medication for mentally ill prisoners.

 

[B4igo2it]

I would be absolutely blown out of the water if this guy was psychotic.

snipped: "... having an active psychosis, they are thinking that their walls are bugged, their phones are bugged, people are coming in to get them, etc."

OT: I witnessed this behavior a couple of times and thought it was due to smoking crack. Anyone know if it could be results of either or does it mean psychosis?? (the guy was roomate of former friend ... OMG, it was wild seeing his episodes) I just thought it was the results of crack which I know nothing about.

Sorry for the off-topic but now I am curious.

 

[Melancholy]

Hello there. I have been lurking on this particular story since WH went missing. I have not been to this forum prior so please bear with any ignorance

A few things. Of course, first and foremost, my heart aches for WH and her family. This tragedy has touched me so strongly, not only because we are 'related in faith' but just the sheer pain from knowing how in love she and her husband were, and the light in her eyes that radiated. Senseless, absolutely senseless, her death.

Also, a link that was posted that has since been removed (and I believe I can understand why) had a link-to-a-link-to-a-link, and while it isn't a news media outlet, I saw reference to JH's charges, one of which included " abuse of a corpse." I have seen nothing but references to "3 counts of aggravated murder", this was the first specific I have seen mentioned. I am sure the source may not be 'credible', but I do wonder if anyone has seen this. I have the link but I wasn't sure it if was a violation, as it piggy backed off of a link that was removed just a bit ago I believe.

Lastly, and again, I'm trying to word carefully so as not to violate any posting rules... lol.... being a Jehovah's Witness myself, I wanted to expound upon some insight offered by a previous poster who is also a member of our faith.
I would be VERY surprised if she willingly got into a vehicle alone with JH. One strong precaution we take is being "alone" with a member of the opposite sex in an effort to avoid temptation to commit adultery. As a married woman, who, by reports was 'active in her congregation', MOO of course, is that she would NEVER have agreed to drive him anywhere, as it would be frowned upon from a religious standpoint. As the previous poster mentioned, she would almost certainly have gone in and asked her husband to help instead.

Of course, at this point that is pure speculation...but being intimately familiar with things central to our belief system I would be very surprised if he was able to coax her into the car with him.

Anyhow, sorry for popping in out of nowhere, I was waiting for my registration to go through because of my email provider, and it took a few days haha

 

[B4igo2it]

Hello there. I have been lurking on this particular story since WH went missing. I have not been to this forum prior so please bear with any ignorance

A few things. Of course, first and foremost, my heart aches for WH and her family. This tragedy has touched me so strongly, not only because we are 'related in faith' but just the sheer pain from knowing how in love she and her husband were, and the light in her eyes that radiated. Senseless, absolutely senseless, her death.

Also, a link that was posted that has since been removed (and I believe I can understand why) had a link-to-a-link-to-a-link, and while it isn't a news media outlet, I saw reference to JH's charges, one of which included " abuse of a corpse." I have seen nothing but references to "3 counts of aggravated murder", this was the first specific I have seen mentioned. I am sure the source may not be 'credible', but I do wonder if anyone has seen this. I have the link but I wasn't sure it if was a violation, as it piggy backed off of a link that was removed just a bit ago I believe.

Lastly, and again, I'm trying to word carefully so as not to violate any posting rules... lol.... being a Jehovah's Witness myself, I wanted to expound upon some insight offered by a previous poster who is also a member of our faith.
I would be VERY surprised if she willingly got into a vehicle alone with JH. One strong precaution we take is being "alone" with a member of the opposite sex in an effort to avoid temptation to commit adultery. As a married woman, who, by reports was 'active in her congregation', MOO of course, is that she would NEVER have agreed to drive him anywhere, as it would be frowned upon from a religious standpoint. As the previous poster mentioned, she would almost certainly have gone in and asked her husband to help instead.

Of course, at this point that is pure speculation...but being intimately familiar with things central to our belief system I would be very surprised if he was able to coax her into the car with him.

Anyhow, sorry for popping in out of nowhere, I was waiting for my registration to go through because of my email provider, and it took a few days haha

Welcome to Websleuths and thank you for the post!
:goodpost: :welcome6:

We are all so sorry for this terrible tragedy and tragic outcome. Such a shame

 

[peace9274]

It think it's a suicide smock. Check these out:

http://www.preventsuicide.com/products/smock.htm

You're right! I've never seen those before, even after working 20 yrs in a state run psych hospital
and before that, 9 yrs at a private one. Our policy at both was to have staff on a 1:1 and to always
be within arm's length of the suicidal patient. And, of course, to remove all sharps and other dangerous
items from his/her room.

 

[StreetcarRider]

The article says "may have been familiar with them through Jehovah's Witness gatherings"
In another article I read that *neighbors* in the apartment complex told the press that Holt was a JW. So, it's possible the neighbors are mistaken and Holt is NOT a JW. I hope so for the reason you stated.
I'm sure clarification either way will be forthcoming.

Not only is Holt a Jehovah's Witness, but he attended the same church as the Heichels:

Jonathan Holt and Whitney Heichel were members of the same Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom Hall in Gresham, ABC News confirmed.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Report-Holt-Heichel-were-members-of-same-church-175169201.html

 

[Melancholy]

Not only is Holt a Jehovah's Witness, but he attended the same church as the Heichels:



http://www.katu.com/news/local/Report-Holt-Heichel-were-members-of-same-church-175169201.html

Wow That must be so shocking for those locally in the congregation, the poor family.

 

[thess]

I wonder if this is also part of why church volunteers were able to help so much -- maybe they knew more about Holt than we think.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I would be absolutely blown out of the water if this guy was psychotic.

I have a relative who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. I've been there while he descended into a psychotic episode. As a rule, schizophrenics rarely hurt others, but are highly likely to kill themselves... usually as a result of their delusions telling them they'd be better killing themselves before "they" or "it" gets to them first.

People who are in the midst of a psychotic episode would not have been able to go to the police station three times, because it is highly likely they would have thought the police to be part of the alien force or conspiracy out to kill them. He would have ran. It is also highly likely, if he was psychotic, that he would have left his house as well... because by the time people get to the point of having an active psychosis, they are thinking that their walls are bugged, their phones are bugged, people are coming in to get them, etc.

I have no magic ball or anything, but I'm not seeing psychosis in his actions.

I, too, have a relative with PS...and would agree with your assessment, from what little I've read about this crime and arrest so far.

 

[gwenabob]

Not only is Holt a Jehovah's Witness, but he attended the same church as the Heichels:



http://www.katu.com/news/local/Report-Holt-Heichel-were-members-of-same-church-175169201.html

So he would have known she wouldn't willingly get into a car with him alone. He must have come prepared to force himself into her car.

 

[Melancholy]

So he would have known she wouldn't willingly get into a car with him alone. He must have come prepared to force himself into her car.

Wow, yeah...my immediate thought was "she still wouldn't have gotten in the car with him, I just know it", but I didn't think of it from HIS perspective...but you are absolutely right, there's not a JW I know (and I know thousands hahahaha) who is ignorant of our feelings on being alone *ESPECIALLY* when both parties are married, not just to avoid temptation, but so that no one can accuse them of having an affair, or make the other spouse have to wonder about that....so you are 110% right, he would have known she wouldn't have gone with him alone anywhere.:twocents:

 

[Inspector Gidget]

Oh this is bad."There is a devil amongst us." So not only was Holt a neighbor but a member of her congregation.Sickening and so wrong.I bet he was totally obsessed with her.

 

[nikb]

It think it's a suicide smock. Check these out:

http://www.preventsuicide.com/products/smock.htm

Ah I think you're right. Thanks for the link. None of this is funny but the advertising for this thing did make me laugh a little bit.

 

[laura08]

Whitney's Candle page (WH). Rest in Paradise.

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=WH

 

[Inspector Gidget]

My thoughts now are,she probably felt she could have talked him out of hurting her,since she knew him.She might have just hoped she could turn it around.Oh my heart is hurting for what she went through with him.What gives me some solace is I just know she called out to God (Jehovah) and he held her hand through it all.Any of you with faith know what I mean.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

It think it's a suicide smock. Check these out:

http://www.preventsuicide.com/products/smock.htm

Please forgive me... But the models for the safety smocks did make me giggle a little.. I told my hubby I could be a "model". For restraints and safety smocks! :blushing: