Oscar Pistorius Defense

[wb180]

Generally speaking I have found those that have not made up their minds or those who continue to lean towards Oscar's not having targeted Reeva specifically to be both curious and open minded. The divide to me seems to be in methods of reasoning. Reasoning is a very specific skill that goes much farther than the "common sense" that presumably we would all credit ourselves with.

I dont understand what this is saying at all.

 

[shane13]

Generally speaking I have found those that have not made up their minds or those who continue to lean towards Oscar's not having targeted Reeva specifically to be both curious and open minded. The divide to me seems to be in methods of reasoning. Reasoning is a very specific skill that goes much farther than the "common sense" that presumably we would all credit ourselves with.

Well that is a nice generalization, thank you Junebug
But I think every one of us here--if we were on a jury--would reserve judgement till the very end of defense. [I would, we're just going on probabilities here.]

OTOH, specifically here now, even in the last few days at this thread, several of us have been listng things that are provable lies in OPs affis (or testimony), or that are physically impossibile. So this is not just our feelings or such.

IMO we have gone from BSA having some 0-5% probabilty, to a current infinitesimal probability that his version is truthful.

One severe problem is that there is no OP version. If, e.g., OP were to get crossed by Nel again now, we would likely have a new version.

The truthfulness of OP's version can be gauged by Oscar saying "Security, everything is fine."
While his alllegedly beloved GF is dyng right near him.

 

[Greater Than]

Thank you for that video! I didn't really want to watch it, but I did. He didnt really lift the dancer from the floor though, she literally kicked her weight up in to his arms as he was standing erect and straight, both times.

Watching him try to dance he looks very awkward and unstable. I think that it is wrong to believe that he would be able to easily lift Reeva's weight from the floor. He is literally standing on two stilts. Nest described that OP first pulled Reeva's body (torso) up in to a vertical position and then had to get the rest of her weight off of the floor so that she could be cradled in his arms. Even with his upper body strength it had to be very hard to get her off of the floor and cradled in his arms in a fully erect standing position. Obviously he pulled it off, but I give deference to it having been very hard to do without Reeva (the dancer) helping to lift her weight off of the ground. :twocents:

BBM - Something he has done his entire life. It's the only method he has ever used to walk, besides on his stumps. Let's not forget that he has never known what it is like to have legs. It's not like he lost his limbs after experiencing what it feels like to have them. This is all he knows, and as an Olympian, he has clearly learned to compensate quite well.

I agree that he looks awkward in that video, but it could just simply be that he is a sucky dancer. Plenty of able-bodied people look just as awkward dancing.

 

[Harmony 2]

Linking to other forums and bringing posts or comments here from elsewhere is not allowed... think about it, would you like one of your posts taken and posted without your permission.

 

[lithgow1]

Generally speaking I have found those that have not made up their minds or those who continue to lean towards Oscar's not having targeted Reeva specifically to be both curious and open minded. The divide to me seems to be in methods of reasoning. Reasoning is a very specific skill that goes much farther than the "common sense" that presumably we would all credit ourselves with.

Rather than being open minded, those who think Pistourus' version is believable seem to want to cast doubt on every single thing that calls it into question: witnesses are colluding or flat out lying, his ex's testimony was just the bitterness of a woman scorned, the state's forensic experts are wrong etc etc.

I haven't seen any real attempt to address significant problems with OP's version but I've seen many attempts to discredit any evidence that contradicts him, which is hardly open minded- It's also not particularly curious if the curiosity only extends to those on the prosecution side of the courtroom.

 

[JudgeJudi]

:no: OP says the mag rack was located in the middle of the back wall, or in the corner of the back wall and the right wall, or against the right wall - take your pick of the three choices. But he says it was not where it is shown in the photos, the police moved it there. Dixon "apparently says OP is wrong about that, but...

Mag rack against the right wall at about 36:00, the other two choices come later but I did not make note of the video timestamps for those:

http://youtu.be/btILfzDbfWA

To be honest, I find it hard to believe you'd have any recall of where something as mundane as a magazine rack was if you walked into a room to a scene like that. How many people see someone who's just been shot to death. He'd just done it to the woman he said he was deeply in love with. He stopped screaming though and when Nel asked him why he said "What was the point" or words to that effect!!! My god, if ever there was a time to scream it was then.

 

[BritsKate]

I don't think I would have questioned Oscar needing help to lift Reeva were it not for him wanting help to lift her before the call to netcare. I've never shot anyone but I have had people dying in front of me - I didn't even think to move them until I was instructed to do so by emergency services.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Greater Than]

To be honest, I find it hard to believe you'd have any recall of where something as mundane as a magazine rack was if you walked into a room to a scene like that. How many people see someone who's just been shot to death. He'd just done it to the woman he said he was deeply in love with. He stopped screaming though and when Nel asked him why he said "What was the point" or words to that effect!!! My god, if ever there was a time to scream it was then.

The magazine rack is far from mundane when it's what she was laying on top of. We're not talking about a toothbrush on the left or right side of the sink, we're talking about a piece of furniture that was propping her up.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Generally speaking I have found those that have not made up their minds or those who continue to lean towards Oscar's not having targeted Reeva specifically to be both curious and open minded. The divide to me seems to be in methods of reasoning. Reasoning is a very specific skill that goes much farther than the "common sense" that presumably we would all credit ourselves with.

To be honest, I was really referring to those who make an excuse for every lie he's been caught out in. I had an open mind myself until the cross-examination got underway and actually found it hard to believe that anyone could be so untruthful. There's always two sides to every story and I like to hear both sides first, but once the lies kept coming and coming, well the tables turned for me.

 

[james83]

It sicken's me the way he is trying to claim her last scream's as his own.

 

[lithgow1]

The magazine rack is far from mundane when it's what she was laying on top of. We're not talking about a toothbrush on the left or right side of the sink, we're talking about a piece of furniture that was propping her up.

Agreed. It would be of much less importance I think if Pistorius hadn't vehemently denied that it was situated where she would have fallen on it. Probably trying to control the damage that led from his admission that it was the probably the rack which made the 'wood moving' sound that he heard. Same with the duvet - if he'd said 'I don't know' that would be much less damaging IMO than insiting on something that is then proven 'wrong', and by his one of his own witnesses no less (the mag rack, that is).

 

[BritsKate]

To be honest, I find it hard to believe you'd have any recall of where something as mundane as a magazine rack was if you walked into a room to a scene like that. How many people see someone who's just been shot to death. He'd just done it to the woman he said he was deeply in love with. He stopped screaming though and when Nel asked him why he said "What was the point" or words to that effect!!! My god, if ever there was a time to scream it was then.

The not screaming is a really big issue for me too. However, I'd actually expect him to remember everything about that room. Have you ever suddenly lost someone you love or been through something really traumatic? Put yourself back there and you'll be shocked how many mundane details you remember. It's almost like, in shock, your mind seeks to memorise every detail, no matter how minute, to try to make sense of later? So that doesn't trouble me - the fact that he's apparently wrong though, well...

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The magazine rack is far from mundane when it's what she was laying on top of. We're not talking about a toothbrush on the left or right side of the sink, we're talking about a piece of furniture that was propping her up.

You're taking this the wrong way. That's not what I meant. If I opened a door to see someone I loved dead in front of me, looking like that and knowing I'd caused it, I wouldn't notice the magazine rack at all.

 

[Greater Than]

You're taking this the wrong way. That's not what I meant. If I opened a door to see someone I loved dead in front of me, looking like that and knowing I'd caused it, I wouldn't notice the magazine rack at all.

If your loved one was sprawled out on top if it, I'm pretty sure you would.

If you were claiming you thought the door was opening because you heard wood moving, but then had to justify the wood moving sound because the door was actually locked and thus not in fact opening, you would claim the sound was the only wooded object in the toilet -- the magazine rack. But the magazine rack was found by police where has always been kept, so you have to claim it was moved by police. And when you lie, you tend to forget what you said previous times, so now you've said it was in three different locations other than where it actually was. This is not because the magazine rack is a mundane, unnoticeable object, it's because he's lying.

 

[Viper]

If your loved one was sprawled out on top if it, I'm pretty sure you would.

If you were claiming you thought the door was opening because you heard wood moving, but then had to justify the wood moving sound because the door was actually locked and thus not in fact opening, you would claim the sound was the only wooded object in the toilet -- the magazine rack. But the magazine rack was found by police where has always been kept, so you have to claim it was moved by police. And when you lie, you tend to forget what you said previous times, so now you've said it was in three different locations other than where it actually was. This is not because the magazine rack is a mundane, unnoticeable object, it's because he's lying.

Yes I know that he is lying. The reason he is lying is because if Reeva did not say a word and only made the mag rack cause a sound then OP wants that sound to be coming from any area other than the area that he fired at. Because if he fired at the wood sound that means he fired at Reeva (Mr. Intruder) and that is murder. He wants the court to believe that he accidentally fired four bullets in to the door in random locations, not at the person behind the door.

I cannot think of another reason why OP wants the mag rack to not be under or near where Reeva was when she was shot.

 

[Madeleine74]

We know she died a horrible death, scared out of her gourd. Those blood curdling screams heard by more than 1 neighbor were hers. That was her screaming in absolute terror and horror. She knew she was being hunted and she was trapped in that little loo. Poor Reeva. Such a needless cruel murder all because of the bruised ego of the nutter Oscar.

 

[kittychi]

Yes I know that he is lying. The reason he is lying is because if Reeva did not say a word and only made the mag rack cause a sound then OP wants that sound to be coming from any area other than the area that he fired at. Because if he fired at the wood sound that means he fired at Reeva (Mr. Intruder) and that is murder. He wants the court to believe that he accidentally fired four bullets in to the door in random locations, not at the person behind the door.

I cannot think of another reason why OP wants the mag rack to not be under or near where Reeva was when she was shot.

I believe you are right. Oscar-Think.

 

[wb180]

To be honest, I was really referring to those who make an excuse for every lie he's been caught out in. I had an open mind myself until the cross-examination got underway and actually found it hard to believe that anyone could be so untruthful. There's always two sides to every story and I like to hear both sides first, but once the lies kept coming and coming, well the tables turned for me.

The main arguments for continued OP support are usually:

1 Nel is torturing him and pushing him with leading questions (even though it is actually OP who gave conflicting evidence in the first place)

2 No one really knows how he feels that night given the 'extreme' circumstances (ie we can't question his conduct as it is highly subjective to him. Common sense is not relevant)

With such arguments no wonder they throw out all the other evidence and believe his story.

 

[Madeleine74]

Yes OP's logic would be akin to many murderers who decide to take the stand or do a legal deposition and then lie and lie and lie. And, in this case, like in all murder cases the world over, there will be people who refuse, patently refuse to see the defendant's actions in any way that is counter to how they want it to be.

Why how dare the mean old lawyer/prosecutor ask OP such horrible and leading questions, which forces him to lie to protect himself. Harrumph! This is his story and he's stickin' to it... errr.... okay he's stickin' to this new story, yeah, that's the ticket

But it's not OP's fault, no siree! It's Nel's fault. They are persecuting a poor invalid who has such emotional scars, the likes of which no one has ever seen. Ever. How dare South Africa make him answer for this. IF Oscar has lied, and we refuse to concede he has, but IF he did, it's only because he got so confused by Nel's obviously biased questioning. Poor Oscar didn't understand what was being put to him.

 

[Karmady]

We know she died a horrible death, scared out of her gourd. Those blood curdling screams heard by more than 1 neighbor were hers. That was her screaming in absolute terror and horror. She knew she was being hunted and she was trapped in that little loo. Poor Reeva. Such a needless cruel murder all because of the bruised ego of the nutter Oscar.

What bruised his ego? I thought she got him the "I love you" card and he got her nothing. If anything, I'd think it would be her with the bruised ego under those circumstances.