Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[Colin de France]

Good question-- anyone want to email her via her LinkedIn page and ask some questions?

.....gone to Mozambique............

 

[Interested Bystander]

I should not have said I know the lady in question is involved with disabled sports (now not sure it was paralympics) I thought I read that her sister in law may be a well known disabled athlete but it could all be the wrong person. I will try to find out more. I certainly would not like to name her incorrectly. Maybe I should remove the post until I have done a little more research.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Auntie isn't available any more on twitter and facebook ...

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I should not have said I know the lady in question is involved with disabled sports (now not sure it was paralympics) I thought I read that her sister in law may be a well known disabled athlete but it could all be the wrong person. I will try to find out more. I certainly would not like to name her incorrectly. Maybe I should remove the post until I have done a little more research.

Don't remove please.

 

[atthelake]

 

[Marfa Lights]

I should not have said I know the lady in question is involved with disabled sports (now not sure it was paralympics) I thought I read that her sister in law may be a well known disabled athlete but it could all be the wrong person. I will try to find out more. I certainly would not like to name her incorrectly. Maybe I should remove the post until I have done a little more research.

Would Lisa Salinger know anything? Who else would have more information about her?

I am really curious.

 

[LemonMousse]

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 6 Min.Vor 6 Minuten
#anguished

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 10 Min.Vor 10 Minuten
Best explanation to date and the reason I believe the SCA erred.
What is the essential in Dolus Eventualis? | eNCA https://www.enca.com/opinion/oscar-pistorius-what-essential-missing-link’-dolus-eventualis …

The author:
Dr Roché Steyn
Dr Roché Steyn is an integrative Medico-legal Specialist, focusing on malpractice prevention and resolution. His areas of specialisation include culpability in Criminal Law and the Law of Delict, and he has also taught Healthcare Law, Criminal Law and Tort Law in the UK. He currently teaches and consults internationally.

Carl Pistorius = prize prat.

Justice Leach addressed the issue of whether Pistorius could possibly have believed he was acting lawfully by firing into that toilet.

That's what the demolition of the PPD defence was all about.

PPD is the genuine, but erroneous, belief in the need to act in self-defence. It is an intentional act arrived at as the result of rational thought.

The SCA found that, although it was impossible to know why he was shooting (as he gave no acceptable explanation) it is clear - in fact there was prima facie PROOF - that it was not because of a genuinely held fear that the person behind the door posed a threat to him.

Without a genuine reason to believe he was under threat, then it is inconceivable that a reasonable person would be under the impression that they were perfectly entitled to murder the human being behind the door.

If Pistorius is going to try and pretend that there was something special about his state of mind that night that would take him outside of the sphere of a "reasonable person" then he has two problems....

A psychiatric report signed by three psychiatrists stating that there was no evidence that he suffered from any anxiety disorder that night

And

If he "wasn't thinking properly" because he was so, so scared, then where did the perfectly rational, and true, thought come from that if he fired a warning shot it might richochet and hit him?

A person so far beyond rational thought that they forget that you can't murder people in toilets does not:

Remember where their gun is
Remember to release the safety
Remember to ask your girlfriend to call the police
Scream at the intruders to "get out"
Hold their gun close to their body in case someone tries to grab it
Stop screaming in order to conceal his whereabouts
Point his gun, finger on the trigger, in the only part of the bathroom where a person could be hiding
Continually check between door and window, door and window

Oh, and thoughtless, mindless shooting does not involve one aimed shot, movement, change of trajectory and then a further three aimed shots.

So shut up Carl. You're embarrassing yourself. Again.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Would Lisa Salinger know anything? Who else would have more information about her?

I am really curious.

Well, I have found in the annals that one of our regular posters thought there was a connection and had done some research into it but I believe there may have been a complaint and the posts were removed. Quite likely that will happen again and correctly so if no factual link is found. However, if there were family link it should be known. Apparently all the du toits descend from one couple! I think her maiden name may have been Henzen and du Toit is her married name.

Apparently it was a South African female who seemed to know her who posted the info on Twitter. Of course, that does not mean it is necessarily true but it was interesting at the time.

 

[LemonMousse]

Apropos of nothing...and only saying what we all know anyway....

I was trying to find the bit in the cross where he says "I wanted to ask why was Reeva calling the police"

I found it, but I also found something else that I so, so, so wish Nel had noticed.

Nel is questioning a wobbly voiced Pistorius about the events leading up to him getting his gun and heading down the passage. "Why didn't you hide? Cover the passage with the gun? etc" - and Pistorius is claiming that he just wanted to put himself between Reeva and the danger, blah blah.

Then Nel asks him something and he clearly replies:

"I wasn't thinking. I just wanted to get myself and Reeva as far away from the danger as possible".

This is right in the middle of his "explanation" for why he was choosing to confront the danger. So he's offering an explanation that is the complete opposite of a) what he's just said and b) his entire version.

Oh, how I wish Nel had noticed. He ripped him a new one for far lesser mistakes than that.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Well, I have found in the annals that one of our regular posters thought there was a connection and had done some research into it but I believe there may have been a complaint and the posts were removed. Quite likely that will happen again and correctly so if no factual link is found. However, if there were family link it should be known. Apparently all the du toits descend from one couple! I think her maiden name may have been Henzen and du Toit is her married name.

Thanks, I.B. That may have been an earlier post of mine that was removed, although I never got far with any research so it might have been someone else's post. I am only reposting the info from Juror 13's comments section as a basis for trying to solicit more information about du Toit. But I understand if it needs to be removed again.

I am usually more resourceful but can't think of any better way to track this down. I probably should just email her directly but can't quite think of how to approach the question.

Open to ideas.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Apropos of nothing...and only saying what we all know anyway....

I was trying to find the bit in the cross where he says "I wanted to ask why was Reeva calling the police"

I found it, but I also found something else that I so, so, so wish Nel had noticed.

Nel is questioning a wobbly voiced Pistorius about the events leading up to him getting his gun and heading down the passage. "Why didn't you hide? Cover the passage with the gun? etc" - and Pistorius is claiming that he just wanted to put himself between Reeva and the danger, blah blah.

Then Nel asks him something and he clearly replies:

"I wasn't thinking. I just wanted to get myself and Reeva as far away from the danger as possible".

This is right in the middle of his "explanation" for why he was choosing to confront the danger. So he's offering an explanation that is the complete opposite of a) what he's just said and b) his entire version.

Oh, how I wish Nel had noticed. He ripped him a new one for far lesser mistakes than that.

Yea, well, Oscar, next time try hitting the panic button before you grab Reeva and fly out the bedroom door, down the stairs and out the front door.

 

[jilly]

BIB - of course he should. As soon as the verdict was changed he should have been taken straight back to jail. How is it possible that a convicted murderer can be 'free' to do as he likes while awaiting a new sentence? It's madness. Does this happen with other people whose verdicts have been overturned or is this just more special treatment for OP?

He's had special treatment from the very beginning. The fact that he was given a bucket to puke in during the court proceedings was bizarre. Never ever seen anything like it. If I was in that courtroom gallery I probably would have been heaving too.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Carl Pistorius = prize prat.

Justice Leach addressed the issue of whether Pistorius could possibly have believed he was acting lawfully by firing into that toilet.

That's what the demolition of the PPD defence was all about.

PPD is the genuine, but erroneous, belief in the need to act in self-defence. It is an intentional act arrived at as the result of rational thought.

The SCA found that, although it was impossible to know why he was shooting (as he gave no acceptable explanation) it is clear - in fact there was prima facie PROOF - that it was not because of a genuinely held fear that the person behind the door posed a threat to him.

Without a genuine reason to believe he was under threat, then it is inconceivable that a reasonable person would be under the impression that they were perfectly entitled to murder the human being behind the door.

If Pistorius is going to try and pretend that there was something special about his state of mind that night that would take him outside of the sphere of a "reasonable person" then he has two problems....

A psychiatric report signed by three psychiatrists stating that there was no evidence that he suffered from any anxiety disorder that night

And

If he "wasn't thinking properly" because he was so, so scared, then where did the perfectly rational, and true, thought come from that if he fired a warning shot it might richochet and hit him?

A person so far beyond rational thought that they forget that you can't murder people in toilets does not:

Remember where their gun is
Remember to release the safety
Remember to ask your girlfriend to call the police
Scream at the intruders to "get out"
Hold their gun close to their body in case someone tries to grab it
Stop screaming in order to conceal his whereabouts
Point his gun, finger on the trigger, in the only part of the bathroom where a person could be hiding
Continually check between door and window, door and window

Oh, and thoughtless, mindless shooting does not involve one aimed shot, movement, change of trajectory and then a further three aimed shots.

So shut up Carl. You're embarrassing yourself. Again.

As you say...prize prat. Birds of a feather and all that...

 

[Tortoise]

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 6 Min.Vor 6 Minuten
#anguished

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 10 Min.Vor 10 Minuten
Best explanation to date and the reason I believe the SCA erred.
What is the essential in Dolus Eventualis? | eNCA https://www.enca.com/opinion/oscar-pistorius-what-essential-missing-link’-dolus-eventualis …

The author:
Dr Roché Steyn
Dr Roché Steyn is an integrative Medico-legal Specialist, focusing on malpractice prevention and resolution. His areas of specialisation include culpability in Criminal Law and the Law of Delict, and he has also taught Healthcare Law, Criminal Law and Tort Law in the UK. He currently teaches and consults internationally.

Another one students should be applying for a refund from then.

He seems to have missed that Oscar's version was that he didn't fire willingly. No will = no thought, lawful or unlawful, according to Oscar.

 

[Paul Connelly]

Well said.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks, I.B. That may have been an earlier post of mine that was removed, although I never got far with any research so it might have been someone else's post. I am only reposting the info from Juror 13's comments section as a basis for trying to solicit more information about du Toit. But I understand if it needs to be removed again.

I am usually more resourceful but can't think of any better way to track this down. I probably should just email her directly but can't quite think of how to approach the question.

Open to ideas.

It was not you Marfa Lights and I don't really want to post a name. I got involved in the discussion too, as did quite a few posters. It is just safer not to post about it as the last thing I would want to do would be start a discussion that cannot be confirmed. I thought it had but my memory must be playing tricks. I haven't seen the comment on Lisa's blog but maybe I shall go and have a look.

 

[james83]

Carl Pistorius = prize prat.

Justice Leach addressed the issue of whether Pistorius could possibly have believed he was acting lawfully by firing into that toilet.

That's what the demolition of the PPD defence was all about.

PPD is the genuine, but erroneous, belief in the need to act in self-defence. It is an intentional act arrived at as the result of rational thought.

The SCA found that, although it was impossible to know why he was shooting (as he gave no acceptable explanation) it is clear - in fact there was prima facie PROOF - that it was not because of a genuinely held fear that the person behind the door posed a threat to him.

Without a genuine reason to believe he was under threat, then it is inconceivable that a reasonable person would be under the impression that they were perfectly entitled to murder the human being behind the door.

If Pistorius is going to try and pretend that there was something special about his state of mind that night that would take him outside of the sphere of a "reasonable person" then he has two problems....

A psychiatric report signed by three psychiatrists stating that there was no evidence that he suffered from any anxiety disorder that night

And

If he "wasn't thinking properly" because he was so, so scared, then where did the perfectly rational, and true, thought come from that if he fired a warning shot it might richochet and hit him?

A person so far beyond rational thought that they forget that you can't murder people in toilets does not:

Remember where their gun is
Remember to release the safety
Remember to ask your girlfriend to call the police
Scream at the intruders to "get out"
Hold their gun close to their body in case someone tries to grab it
Stop screaming in order to conceal his whereabouts
Point his gun, finger on the trigger, in the only part of the bathroom where a person could be hiding
Continually check between door and window, door and window

Oh, and thoughtless, mindless shooting does not involve one aimed shot, movement, change of trajectory and then a further three aimed shots.

So shut up Carl. You're embarrassing yourself. Again.

With regards all of his not thinking didnt have time tho think nonsense, How about this part, especially the part in bold, just laughable.

Nel: now then you got to the entrance to the bathroom?

OP: That’s correct milady.

Nel: And you kept quiet?

OP: That’s correct milady.

Nel: The reason being?

OP: I didn’t want to give my position away, I was scared that the person was around the corner, I knelt,
I kneeled down, I was holding the cupboard, I had my firearm in front of me, and I was worried that the person was waiting there to ambush me milady, I was, I wanted to peer around the corner.


Nel: Ok, so, this wasn’t split seconds? Now we’re thinking, now you’re thinking, and you’re kneeling down, and your gun is facing towards the bathroom?

OP: Everything about that event was split decision milady, every movement there was a difference in something that could have happened, when I was in the passage it was that the person would have been in a further proximity that they could’ve stuck their hand around the wall and fired at me, when I got to the entrance of the passage it was a different situation, somebody could have attacked me with a firearm or they could have just ran up to me and choked me milady.

For someone who didn't have time to think, he sure seemed to be thinking alot.

 

[jilly]

With regards all of his not thinking didnt have time tho think nonsense, How about this part, especially the part in bold, just laughable.

Nel: now then you got to the entrance to the bathroom?

OP: That’s correct milady.

Nel: And you kept quiet?

OP: That’s correct milady.

Nel: The reason being?

OP: I didn’t want to give my position away, I was scared that the person was around the corner, I knelt,
I kneeled down, I was holding the cupboard, I had my firearm in front of me, and I was worried that the person was waiting there to ambush me milady, I was, I wanted to peer around the corner.


Nel: Ok, so, this wasn’t split seconds? Now we’re thinking, now you’re thinking, and you’re kneeling down, and your gun is facing towards the bathroom?

OP: Everything about that event was split decision milady, every movement there was a difference in something that could have happened, when I was in the passage it was that the person would have been in a further proximity that they could’ve stuck their hand around the wall and fired at me, when I got to the entrance of the passage it was a different situation, somebody could have attacked me with a firearm or they could have just ran up to me and choked me milady.

For someone who didn't have time to think, he sure seemed to be thinking alot.

Spot on James!! Thank you for the reminder!

 

[jilly]

This Pistorius family must be getting very tired of having to be on the defensive and offensive.

Nobody can tell me that they don't know that Oscar's 'done it again' only this time, a heck of a lot worse. Why didn't any of them intervene over the yrs and read Oscar the riot act. Imo, they're partly responsible for it to come down to this.

Can't tell me that Uncle Arnold didn't at least address past troubling incidents with Oscar but knowing Oscar, he probably cried and vomitted his way out of it. It's apparent that Oscar had no discipline which may have been because of his disability.

Right now, it appears they're more interested in saving their name and prestige. They should have dealt with Oscar's temper and recklessness yrs ago. As a result, you reap what you sow.

Thank goodness for the unanimous Supreme Crt because now they have been told that they're not above the law.

jmo

 

[Estelle]

He's had special treatment from the very beginning. The fact that he was given a bucket to puke in during the court proceedings was bizarre. Never ever seen anything like it. If I was in that courtroom gallery I probably would have been heaving too.

Yet another instance of enabling OP. The family did it, his friends did it, Roux did it, the court did it, Masipa did it and now it seems the NPA are doing it. I agree with another poster that there seems to be a conscious or subconscious effort by almost everyone in authority involved now to allow OP time to flee (or actually commit suicide) thus enabling him yet again. He has never been held accountable for any wrongs in his life except now by the five SCA Judges. OP simply does not understand punishment as he has never had to take full responsibility for his actions before at the age of 29yo. He is accustomed to everyone lying on his behalf. That is why he felt betrayed by Kevin Larena whom he expected to either lie for him in court or refuse to give evidence. Now he is trying to make Larena feel guilty about it so OP tasked Larena to speak to the media to tell the world that OP is depressed and suicidal, life in jail was hell for him, he has lost interest in women and is still in love with Reeva to get sympathy.

If only the SCA could have delivered an appropriate sentence at the same time as the verdict! OP would be back in jail right now with no chance of being enabled by anyone any more.