Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[Marfa Lights]

Apropos yesterday's discussion around Lareno's comments. It does seem that many/most of OP's friends also think he murdered Reeva. Why else would they desert him?

He's a danger to others. Always has been.

 

[soozieqtips]

He's an abuser - which is a behaviour that will not stop unless he is treated

Treatment would do no good unless he accepts what he is, which I don't see happening.

 

[Marfa Lights]

here is masipa on video defending her OP judgement/criticisms - 2 mins long

[video=youtube;p9PPaapMnzQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9PPaapMnzQ[/video]

Aha... so she told herself people were critical of the outcome not her judgment!

Okaydee.... wonder how she now views her own judgement post-appeal review??

 

[Colin de France]

...is it possible for Pistorius to appeal the new sentence and just the sentence........?

 

[cottonweaver]

Maybe the State will not contest bail because it is a foregone conclusion that the magistrate will not grant bail anyway under these circumstances (i.e. newly convicted of murder).

Good point Marfa. ie they can afford to be magnanimous
But if his team present his appeal papers ( however flimsily they are based) alongside the bail application, I hope that will still be the case - bail denied, wait for your appeal to be rejected whilst inside...:jail:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

IF:

OP fled - away - all the problems in SA solved re how to treat an ex sports icon.

You can search him via international arrest warrant, but you will not find him - bad luck, but unalterable.

When he is caught one day in the far away future, a lot grass has grown over the matter, especially with regard to the sports icon (and secrets perhaps).

?

 

[cottonweaver]

I see Phelps is determined to cheer lead at the expense of balanced analysis




James Grant
‏@JamesGrantZA James Grant Retweeted Daily Maverick
Phelps seems to have done it again - here that a constitutional pnt is required to appeal to the Con Court. Not so.

yes Phelps is out of date - OP does not need a constitutional point in order to appeal to CC

AND Grant says later, could an appeal to CC, even IF taken up, not also back-fire on OP?

"James, As accused can appeal both facts and law, if he approaches CC will they re-examine case in its entirety or only a specific ?" (Vivien asks)
" Right, the CC may consider whatever extent is necessary - altho appeal crts are reluctant to interfere with factual findings." (James answers)

AND on Masipa to sentence issue
"Any Judge can recuse him/herself if s/he knows of some basis that would prevent him/her from being unbiased."

https://twitter.com/JamesGrantZA/with_replies

 

[Colin de France]

yes Phelps is out of date - OP does not need a constitutional point in order to appeal to CC

AND Grant says later, could an appeal to CC, even IF taken up, not also back-fire on OP?

"James, As accused can appeal both facts and law, if he approaches CC will they re-examine case in its entirety or only a specific ?" (Vivien asks)
" Right, the CC may consider whatever extent is necessary - altho appeal crts are reluctant to interfere with factual findings." (James answers)

AND on Masipa to sentence issue
"Any Judge can recuse him/herself if s/he knows of some basis that would prevent him/her from being unbiased."

https://twitter.com/JamesGrantZA/with_replies

....thanks.....shame we don't have real legal experts on here who could clarify the situation regarding the possible appeal and to what areas are covered exactly........

 

[Sherbert]

The NPA would have been pretty certain that the conviction would be replaced with DE yet did not prepare for what was to happen with OP immediately after. I just don't get it.

RSBM

Exactly. It doesn't make any sense. I am suspicious that either he is being given the opportunity to flee or that some medical evidence has been produced that makes it difficult to arrest him at this point.

 

[Paul Connelly]

...is it possible for Pistorius to appeal the new sentence and just the sentence........?

After Judge Leach's recent exposition of his judgement Pistorious would have to be insane to try! The SCA would likely increase whatever Masipa was minded to give him. There's hope and there's hope my friend. His goose is cooked I'm afraid. Well, truth be told I'm not afraid, on the contrary, I'm positively delighted!

 

[Sherbert]

Aha... so she told herself people were critical of the outcome not her judgment!

Okaydee.... wonder how she now views her own judgement post-appeal review??

That clip did make me cross. As trial judge, it should have been at the forefront of her mind that, as per Lord Hewart's aphorism, 'it is not merely of some importance, but is of fundamental importance that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done'.

I don't understand how she could have had the temerity to apply for promotion, in the knowledge that her judgement had provoked such an outcry.

 

[Colin de France]

After Judge Leach's recent exposition of his judgement Pistorious would have to be insane to try! The SCA would likely increase whatever Masipa was minded to give him. There's hope and there's hope my friend. His goose is cooked I'm afraid. Well, truth be told I'm not afraid, on the contrary, I'm positively delighted!

....i'm not so sure i think we could be in for a few surprises......

 

[Tortoise]

We could go through each of those points one by one. I'm 100% positive of two things if we did:

1. That we could and would have a respectful exchange of ideas and listen well enough to each other to each have a slightly different point of view at the end.

2. That neither of us would change our minds about the bottom line conclusions we've reached after a lot of research and discussion.

It's all good.

We have a new verdict. A unanimous verdict of a full bench of Justices of the Supreme Court of Appeal no less.

The upshot of which is that the State has NOW proved that Pistorius' version and defence is not reasonably possibly true.

That leaves only one reasonable inference - that he knowingly murdered Reeva, and I say murdered with premeditation. I do think the State will press for this important distinction at sentencing, because it makes no sense that he murdered someone hiding from him, with 4 considered bullets, who he did not think posed any threat to his life, and it makes no sense that if it was true, his version was neither consistent nor believable.

Unless he was already in the bathroom with his gun in his hand, he covered that distance between bedroom and bathroom with only one intention in mind. That is premeditation.

Pre-meditated Dolus Eventualis of Reeva Steenkamp - a planned action which was likely but not certain to cause Reeva's death, behind a door where he could not see her.

I wouldn't be surprised if the State pushes for more than the minimum sentence, without an admission of guilt.

 

[Lyra500]

RSBM

Exactly. It doesn't make any sense. I am suspicious that either he is being given the opportunity to flee or that some medical evidence has been produced that makes it difficult to arrest him at this point.

I was about to post about this - it almost seems as if they are deliberately presenting him with a window of opportunity during which he can flee.

 

[Colin de France]

I was about to post about this - it almost seems as if they are deliberately presenting him with a window of opportunity during which he can flee.

....the temptation must be big .....

 

[JudgeJudi]

Well, God forbid she lets the assessor, du Toit, help her with sentencing.

Fortunately the assessors play no role in sentencing and the sentence will be entirely at Masipa's discretion.

Even though judges' decisions are frequently overturned on appeal, this was no ordinary trial. It was to be a showcase trial for South Africa, and the world was watching. It was meant to show:

• how South Africa had emerged from the gross injustices of the apartheid era;
• zero tolerance for aggression, arrogance and disrespect for human life;
• how the justice system deals with cases of violence against women; and
• promote an understanding of the law;

At the centre of this trial was an accused who had almost as much appeal as Nelson Mandela. In a sports obsessed country he was their superstar. He had it all – looks, charm, celebrity, wealth and a privileged background. South Africans were transfixed by the tragedy that was unfolding and they followed the trial minute by minute, as we were.

As Masipa was reading her verdict, it seemed obvious to most that he was going to be found guilty of murder until she said, “the accused is found not guilty and is discharged. Instead, he is found guilty of culpable homicide”. There was shock, disbelief and, amongst the general population everywhere, more than a little bit of anger.

I know many people thought, and perhaps still do, think that corruption played a part in her decision, but I was not one of those people. After the SCA shredded her judgment, despite Mpati’s kind words about Masipa, I think she was simply not up to the task, didn’t possess the knowledge required for what was a relatively simple case, couldn’t control her court and was basically out of her depth.

Fortunately the SCA came to the rescue with a brilliant judgment that the man in the street could understand and reached the decision that should have been made in the trial. After more than two and a half years of anxiety and heartbreak for the Steenkamps, they finally got justice.

And now to return to Marfa Lights' comment, here is Order 3 of the SCA’s judgment

“3 The matter is referred back to the trial court to consider an appropriate sentence afresh in the light of the comments in this judgment”.

I’d like to believe that Masipa pays particular attention to the BIB which I feel was directed at her and returns an appropriate sentence.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Re Du Toit

I have noticed one or two comment about this lady and her input to the case. Is there anything in writing anywhere please, other than on here? It did seem from the comments as though there maybe. I am aware of a link with paralympic athletes.

 

[Paul Connelly]

....i'm not so sure i think we could be in for a few surprises......

It's always possible Colin but I do think short of her giving him 30 years in jail he would be unwise to appeal. Anything between 10-15 and he should thank his lucky stars.

Of course he may well appeal to the CC and that might indeed throw up some surprises but I suspect they will be detrimental to him. The tide has turned after the SCA verdict. Justice has been seen to be done and South Africans citizens will not tolerate having that snatched back without the law looking pretty ineffectual and unfit for purpose.

This is far bigger than Pistorius and his deluded sense of self importance and desperation. This case has transcended his needs and all the separate arms of the state, the legislature, the judiciary and the people are as one in crying out for justice. If he and his team can't see the wood for the trees it is their downfall.

You only have to see how pastoral Judge Leach was when delivering the judgement. Such affairs are usually sterile and clinical. The symbolism was as unequivical as the judgement. Similarly, the PR exercise, showing journalists around the prison immediately prior to the judgement. The was a planned and concerted effort on behalf of the state and its judiciary. Oscar may continue to run his race but he's been lapped by other runners who need this win more than he does.

The tide has turned and Oscar is going to get swept away by a tsunami of stronger forces working for the common good. He may struggle to swim against it for a while but the end result is still the same.

 

[JudgeJudi]

James Grant
‏@JamesGrantZA James Grant Retweeted Vivien Wessels
That's it: Justice Leach saying Phelps got some things wrong. Thanks. Will look to see what he could be referring to

I see Phelps is determined to cheer lead at the expense of balanced analysis

James Grant
‏@JamesGrantZA James Grant Retweeted Daily Maverick
Phelps seems to have done it again - here that a constitutional pnt is required to appeal to the Con Court. Not so.

Hahahahaha. Dontcha just love it! :floorlaugh:

 

[JudgeJudi]

I really do need to get a grip and restrain myself but I just can't resist.

Here's a transcript that posters did of a radio interview with Kelly Phelps. It appears on none other than a Support for Oscar site. "The intention had been to simply highlight certain aspects of what she’d said, but in the end, we felt that the whole interview was too good to break down too far".

https://supportforoscar.wordpress.com/2014/09/20/kelly-phelps-interview-transcript/

Mods, I hope I'm not violating the rules for printing this link. Please delete if I am.