Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[soozieqtips]

I could half understand OP complaining how terrible jail was if he'd been kept in the normal wing with the other prisoners. But he wasn't. He had his own cell (didn't look that awful to me, just a bit small), was able to cook his own food and play football with other inmates. Plue he had protection. What he had in comparison with the others was 5-star luxury. Yet still the cowardly murderer whinges and whines. Does no one in his family ever tell him to just zip it?

 

[Susza]

I honestly don't know Estelle. If I had to guess I'd say the NPA who represent the State would not be able to influence the Judiciary into asking for a different judge any more than Pistorius could. What is more doable is for Judge Masipa to excuse herself and allow another Judge to sentence him. I think she is too professional to opt for this though. When she was asked recently if she felt stigmatised over how she presided over the trial she brushed it off and said it was not a stigma if the oiks perceived justice hadn't pandered to their emotional outpourings. I'm paraphrasing of course but it gives a valuable insight into how she saw the wider publics reaction.

I think we have to accept she'll be there to sentence him despite the reservations most people feel after her previous debacle. I do think Justice Leach has restricted her somewhat though. She won't want it going back to the SCA again for yet another "shockingly" lenient sentence. This alone might make her the best person to sentence him?

BBM - Depending on the sentence Masipa will impose, would the NPA be allowed to appeal it?
In this case I'd totally agree with your last sentence.

 

[cottonweaver]

....thanks.....shame we don't have real legal experts on here who could clarify the situation regarding the possible appeal and to what areas are covered exactly........

I know, it's frustrating to try and work out what is coming. Best to rely on someone like Grant as he seems up to date on the law for Appeals and doesn't comment just to hog the lime-light.
Let's see what happens next week - I can't make head or tail of what is going on!

 

[Paul Connelly]

[/B][/B]

BBM - Depending on the sentence Masipa will impose, would the NPA be allowed to appeal it?
In this case I'd totally agree with your last sentence.

Yes Susza, the State can appeal any sentence, as can Pistorius. I suspect Nel will use this against Masipa by asking for 15 years plus time for failing to take the court in his confidence, lying, obfuscating, etc, etc... She will be wary of being shockingly lenient a second time given how strongly worded the SCA judgement was. He will of course end up with 15 less some but I think it won't be a walk in the park like her last sentence. The SCA have seen to that!

 

[Tortoise]

Yes Susza, the State can appeal any sentence, as can Pistorius. I suspect Nel will use this against Masipa by asking for 15 years plus time for failing to take the court in his confidence, lying, obfuscating, etc, etc... She will be wary of being shockingly lenient a second time given how strongly worded the SCA judgement was. He will of course end up with 15 less some but I think it won't be a walk in the park like her last sentence. The SCA have seen to that!

What do you see as potentially being a mitigating factor?

 

[Susza]

remorse defined in SCA case law

"There is, moreover, a chasm between regret and remorse. Many accused persons might well regret their conduct, but that does not without more translate to genuine remorse. Remorse is a gnawing pain of conscience for the plight of another. Thus genuine contrition can only come from an appreciation and acknowledgement of the extent of one's error.

Whether the offender is sincerely remorseful, and not simply feeling sorry for himself or herself at having been caught, is a factual question. It is to the surrounding actions of the accused, rather than what he says in court, that one should rather look. In order for the remorse to be a valid consideration, the penitence must be sincere and the accused must take the court fully into his or her confidence. Until and unless that happens, the genuineness of the contrition alleged to exist cannot be determined.

After all, before a court can find that an accused person is genuinely remorseful, it needs to have a proper appreciation of, inter alia: what motivated the accused to commit the deed; what has since provoked his or her change of heart; and whether he or she does indeed have a true appreciation of the consequences of those actions.’


http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2015/187.pdf

ETA An incidental link is that Lerena tells us that OP is off women as he still loves Reeva!!! Something he will need to keep shoring up until all his judicial opportunities are used up.

So wich definition of remorse did Masipa apply? She must have read the wrong page.
Crazy! I mean, is this definition so hard to understand??? Even I understand it. And as it's written, the question is a factual one. So what were her factual answers???? Couldn't someone here send her an email explaining the definition and add some examples ?

 

[Cloen]

I have never read this before:

Oscar seems to have been having a lot of reunions while on house arrest and was even best man at a friend's wedding in October 2014.

Outcry as former rugby player posts selfie with Oscar

The shamed sprinter appears in a ‘selfie’ with rugby player pal Brett Sharman apparently during a recent evening reunion at the family mansion where he is under house arrest.

Released after serving just one sixth of his sentence, the sprinter has been under house arrest at his uncle's home in Pretoria, where he has had a number of visitors.

The runner has been friends with Sharman since they were at high school together.

Pistorius was best man at Sharman’s wedding to dancer Simone Krause in October 2014 - just a month before he was sentenced to five years' for Reeva's manslaughter.

Photos have emerged of the shamed runner at the wedding looking happy and relaxed at the wedding, which took place after he had been convicted of the killing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...se-killing-Reeva-Steenkamp.html#ixzz3tR7y7ClJ

He was convicted of CH when he still had a handful of 'friends' still supporting him.

----just wait and see those 'friends' of his who have hung on in there now distance themselves from him now that CH has been overturned to Murder, --by association, it won't be in their interests to support OP in any shape or form now.

The arrogance of this man in the media reports how he feels disappointed and let down when some of his friends didn't stand by him during the trial - what a disillusioned , full of self importance , deluded man he is

- he is NOT above the law , and finally Judge Leach has dealt him the just desserts he should have got the first timewasting Court battle we all witnessed, overseen by someone who was more interested in protecting the accused than seeing justice for the Victim ...................PFT !

I'm waiting for a televised statement from Unc Arnie , his boy still can do no wrong & they put it down to OSCAR'S MISTAKE ,--- but of course Unc has the monetary means to 'help' Oscar slip off somewhere, and he could claim he knew NOTHING.................. wouldn't be surprised that could be breaking news in the near future ............. (thankfully a humungous media presence parked outside Unc's house will see to it, that probably won't be possible ! )

 

[Paul Connelly]

We have a new verdict. A unanimous verdict of a full bench of Justices of the Supreme Court of Appeal no less.

The upshot of which is that the State has NOW proved that Pistorius' version and defence is not reasonably possibly true.

That leaves only one reasonable inference - that he knowingly murdered Reeva, and I say murdered with premeditation. I do think the State will press for this important distinction at sentencing, because it makes no sense that he murdered someone hiding from him, with 4 considered bullets, who he did not think posed any threat to his life, and it makes no sense that if it was true, his version was neither consistent nor believable.

Unless he was already in the bathroom with his gun in his hand, he covered that distance between bedroom and bathroom with only one intention in mind. That is premeditation.

Pre-meditated Dolus Eventualis of Reeva Steenkamp - a planned action which was likely but not certain to cause Reeva's death, behind a door where he could not see her.

I wouldn't be surprised if the State pushes for more than the minimum sentence, without an admission of guilt.

Your last paragraph is bang on the money! I totally concur. It's Pistorius' biggest problem now. I wonder whether this alone will make him take his chances with the CC should they find a suitable argument. It's also why the PR campaign has already begun. They really need Masipa to buy into his BS one last time.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Re Du Toit

I have noticed one or two comment about this lady and her input to the case. Is there anything in writing anywhere please, other than on here? It did seem from the comments as though there maybe. I am aware of a link with paralympic athletes.

I am still curious about that too-- there was a reader comment from a Tess on Juror 13's website that was raising some questions about du Toit:

"Though I have began to wonder more about the assessor Janette Henzen-du Toit and her role in all this. Not sure where I’ve read it (may be from your research!) but isn’t there conflict of interest or bias when someone on the bench is so heavily on one side of the case? This assessor is doing a doctorate on Holistic sentencing! To give a criminal the least sentence possible! Her background as an advocate is for Criminal Defense, in addition to that she is heavily interested in the paraplegic community and may be married into a family that has a paraplegic athlete. (Natalie Du Toit, paraplegic, has a brother and may be married to Ms. Henzen, and they all live in same town!)"

Yes the “Holistic” punishment was an odd term to me, I had to do some research on that one! From what I’ve found so far, it refers to taking all the circumstances about the person into account, his youth, his family, his disabilities, etc. and incorporate it all into making a “unique” sentence for each person as a whole. (That’s exactly what Roux did if you think about it, he followed that model step by step) It just made me wonder about how much the assessor and the defense worked together??
There are many other links I found as well, researching old newspaper articles from South Africa, there was one very interesting one that I will list here, please note though that I do not know if the Thys Henzen below is related to Janette Henzen:
So that being said, here is what I found:
Janette Henzen (before she married du Toit) worked or lived in Rustenberg (also referenced on her Facebook page).Her parents names are Thys and Franci Henzen. (From Bleed newpaper article)
Some years ago, a Thys Henzen became a paraplegic as a result of a car accident, then some years after that was arrested for an altercation,(from the newspaper South Africa Today)
while in the jail he was raped by the men in the cell, and was abused by the SAPS police as well.
If this man was related to Janette, it would certainly explain her mindset as far as interest in the paraplegic community and even against the SAPS. She may not be related at all to this Thys Henzen, BUT odds are she probably heard or read about this individual. (not father as I think she is too old, maybe a brother?)
What led me to start this research was the link I found on her Facebook page, “Living without Limbs” under her Favorites.
And at first I was stunned as she’s an assessor for a paraplegic charged with Murder!!
So there is definitely some kind of interest in paraplegia on her part for whatever reason!
And I do think that may tip the scales in favor of Pistorius, how much we’ll never know. But it seems like a conflict of interest (do they have that in S. Africa courts?) especially in a murder trial. The articles about a Thys Henzen are interesting though and may provide the initial interest in this disability though now I’ve read that her husband is the brother of Nanette du Toit, also a paraplegic athlete in S. Africa.
In closing I must say I don’t know anything as fact, all this is from what I’ve read in articles on the internet, still just circumstantial evidence!

Anyone know anything about this?

 

[Tortoise]

Your last paragraph is bang on the money! I totally concur. It's Pistorius' biggest problem now. I wonder whether this alone will make him take his chances with the CC should they find a suitable argument. It's also why the PR campaign has already begun. They really need Masipa to buy into his BS one last time.

I think it is too late. I cannot see one ground for an appeal. His goose is cooked.

Suicidal thoughts as grounds for not doing time? Nah, they'll be used to that, just means they will have to give him a nurse until he gets over it. It doesn't meet the criteria for a reduced sentence.

His disability isn't grounds either. He has to live with the same disability in or out of jail, and it's not as if they've removed his prostheses.

If he confesses, something gives me the idea that he will either blame his loss of control on something Reeva did, or said, or alcohol, or psychological problems stemming from his disability. But then he was given a clear psych. evaluation.

 

[Tortoise]

I am still curious about that too-- there was a reader comment from a Tess on Juror 13's website that was raising some questions about du Toit:


Anyone know anything about this?

Wonder if it was a random selection or if she put herself forward?

 

[Susza]

I just can't see how he can be granted bail. He is a convicted murderer and his sentence is likely to be greater than what he has already served so he will be sent to jail, of that there is no doubt surely. So all bail achieves is to give him the opportunity to flee. I also don't understand that he is in legal limbo until a bail application. Surely he has to be in custody, even in the local watch house pending a bail application because again he is a convicted murderer who will go to jail and a flight risk.
The NPA would have been pretty certain that the conviction would be replaced with DE yet did not prepare for what was to happen with OP immediately after.
I just don't get it.

As to mitigation when he does get sentenced, what's he got left that hasn't been knocked well and truly over by the appeal judgement? I can only see his disability in terms of jail will be extra tough on him ( but he seems to have survived it so far) and his apparent remorse for killing Reeva. I say apparent as it is evident that his remorse is also for himself and how it's changed his future.

Please help me: if you apply the SCA definition of remorse (posted somewhere above), what are concrete signs of remorse OP has been/is expressing? I have a hard time finding any.
That's why I would replace "also" by "only".

 

[Paul Connelly]

What do you see as potentially being a mitigating factor?

His vulnerability due to disability which prevents him from joining the general population.

The fact he will be a target from crime gangs due to his celebrity and money.

The biggest one is that as a result of these first two he is kept on the hospital wing in virtual solitary confinement. No doubt Roux will get someone like Dr Merryl Vorster to argue this would cause cruel and unnecessary psychological punishment over an extended period. He will further argue such circumstances are compelling and extenuating enough for her to significantly reduce his sentence. This is the only show in town for Roux and he will milk it for all it is worth.

This is why we'll see more of the PR pieces a la Larena over the coming days. They'll want to make it known Oscar is already on the edge and psychologically vulnerable in readiness for Roux's whiney pleading and faux concern before Masipa.

I can't see what else they can do given the SCA judgement. Then again I'm not paid £3500.00 per day for my crappy opinions!

 

[Cherwell]

I am still curious about that too-- there was a reader comment from a Tess on Juror 13's website that was raising some questions about du Toit:


Anyone know anything about this?

No, but there was a lot of speculation and very few facts in that piece. Depends how common those surnames are.

 

[Marfa Lights]

No, but there was a lot of speculation and very few facts in that piece. Depends how common those surnames are.

I think they are very common surnames from what I can tell-- even considering they are from her same hometown that's not conclusive enough (and that's about all I could glean from her LinkedIn page).

Would love to know if all those associations are correct. The implications are pretty astounding.

Seems like some investigative journalist would have pursued that angle.

 

[Colin de France]

I am still curious about that too-- there was a reader comment from a Tess on Juror 13's website that was raising some questions about du Toit:


Anyone know anything about this?

.....this smells fishy......i wonder if she was "chosen" or did she possibly ask to be on that specific bench ?........

 

[soozieqtips]

His vulnerability due to disability which prevents him from joining the general population.

The fact he will be a target from crime gangs due to his celebrity and money.

The biggest one is that as a result of these first two he is kept on the hospital wing in virtual solitary confinement. No doubt Roux will get someone like Dr Merryl Vorster to argue this would cause cruel and unnecessary psychological punishment over an extended period. He will further argue such circumstances are compelling and extenuating enough for her to significantly reduce his sentence. This is the only show in town for Roux and he will milk it for all it is worth.

This is why we'll see more of the PR pieces a la Larena over the coming days. They'll want to make it known Oscar is already on the edge and psychologically vulnerable in readiness for Roux's whiney pleading and faux concern before Masipa.

I can't see what else they can do given the SCA judgement. Then again I'm not paid £3500.00 per day for my crappy opinions!

BIB - yes. I think we're all going to need sick buckets. Didn't Roux say he'd need all day for arguments at the SCA appeal? Well, he didn't get that, but I can see him laying it on thick for Masipa as she's his last hope and she fell for his bull last time. I think it's really distasteful that we're already being bombarded by the convicted killer's moans and complaints. Once again he's the victim!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 6 Min.Vor 6 Minuten
#anguished

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 10 Min.Vor 10 Minuten
Best explanation to date and the reason I believe the SCA erred.
What is the essential in Dolus Eventualis? | eNCA https://www.enca.com/opinion/oscar-pistorius-what-essential-missing-link’-dolus-eventualis …

The author:
Dr Roché Steyn
Dr Roché Steyn is an integrative Medico-legal Specialist, focusing on malpractice prevention and resolution. His areas of specialisation include culpability in Criminal Law and the Law of Delict, and he has also taught Healthcare Law, Criminal Law and Tort Law in the UK. He currently teaches and consults internationally.

 

[Marfa Lights]

Wonder if it was a random selection or if she put herself forward?

Good question-- anyone want to email her via her LinkedIn page and ask some questions?

 

[Marfa Lights]

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 6 Min.Vor 6 Minuten
#anguished

Carl Pistorius ‏@carlpistorius 10 Min.Vor 10 Minuten
Best explanation to date and the reason I believe the SCA erred.
What is the essential ["Missing Link"] in Dolus Eventualis? | eNCA https://www.enca.com/opinion/oscar-pistorius-what-essential-missing-link’-dolus-eventualis …

I can answer that one for you, Carl--
QUESTION (the so-called "Missing Link"): “Considering all the circumstances, is there reasonable doubt that Oscar knew that he was acting unlawfully at the time of firing the shots?”
ANSWER: Five Judges on the Supreme Court of Appeals unanimously said no, no doubt in their minds.