Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

[JudgeJudi]

As OP took centre stage, sobbing and vomiting in the dock and talking about how he was convinced she was a burglar, it was all about his vulnerability, his fear.

Though Reeva is said to have cowered in the locked toilet cubicle in the bathroom of his home as he shot her four times through its door, she was somehow written out of the story, as if her life was of little consequence compared with the losses he had suffered by being accused and dragged through the mire.

Masipa, gave her verdict in good faith, but, by failing to convict him of murder, she sent a message out: that a woman could die alone with her boyfriend in a hail of bullets and no-one would be expected to pay the price. It was a message that was reinforced by the leniency of Pistorius’s subsequent treatment:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/dani-garavelli-pistorius-fall-out-will-linger-on-1-3967680

I can see why the Defence Team don’t want a retrial. With this huge put-down by a unanimous decision of a very senior SCA bench, Judge Leach [:blushing: I inadvertently referred to him as Mpati in #636] made it patently clear what all 5 judges thought of him. It doesn’t bode at all well for OP at the re-sentencing hearing IMO.

Had the court ordered a retrial, there’s every chance the conviction could have been elevated to dolus directus, bringing with it a further increase in sentence. If he chose to appeal, it would first have to return to the SCA and I think it’s more than obvious what would happen there.

It’s time for OP to bite the bullet. He’ll never admit what he’s done. Apart from everything else we can call him, we can also add gutless to the list. There’s no chance of rehabilitation because he’ll never admit what he’s done. Let him face the consequences. Bring it on.

 

[Colin de France]

Why won't somebody explain to us all why Pistorius was not sent straight back to prison?
There can be no question of anything but a custodial sentence, so it defies all logic.

......so true......it's very bannana republic....

 

[Tortoise]

I would not want to live there.

 

[Estelle]

I wonder what Mikey Schultz and Mark Batchelor are thinking now. If OP is a free man now, maybe they will take the law into their own hands! It would not be safe for OP on the streets if he gets bail.

 

[Estelle]

I would not want to live there.

I would not want to live there either although I loved the scenery of Cape Town when i was there in October this year. However, one night I went to a French restaurant alone so I was escorted by one man from my hotel and escorted back home by another man from the restaurant - a distance of about 500 metres. Also i was told to catch taxis at night to the theatre and home again even though it was within walking distance.

 

[Tortoise]

He has to get away from that family. They are a poison to him, with their belief in his innocence. He needs professional help and a place of safety to even begin to come to terms with the huge mess he has created. All the legal people on his side are interested in is his wealth, publicity, and now his wealth has dried up, his uncle's wealth. The way it's going there's sure to be a sorry ending, because he is too scared to admit what he did. Admitting responsibility is not in his nature, and that is why he needs to be removed from the enablers. He needs to prepare himself for the rejection that will follow, but ultimately there may come forgiveness and understanding of how they have enabled him to be what he is.

 

[Estelle]

"Pistorius family react to "harsh" judgement

A Pistorius family source said their phones were ringing non-stop and Pistorius was surrounded by his aunt, uncle, siblings and family.

"It was a harsh judgement, harsher than we thought but in terms of the content, we felt it would go this way after hearing what was said at the appeal," the source said.

The source added that Pistorius had been preparing mentally for the likely outcome. "You have to prepare for it."

Pistorius family and his legal team, including barrister Barry Roux and solicitor Brian Webber, are now poring over the judgement and considering their options. It is understood that they have 10 days to lodge an appeal with the Constitutional Court."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...sion-live.html

 

[Tortoise]

I would not want to live there either although I loved the scenery of Cape Town when i was there in October this year. However, one night I went to a French restaurant alone so I was escorted by one man from my hotel and escorted back home by another man from the restaurant - a distance of about 500 metres. Also i was told to catch taxis at night to the theatre and home again even though it was within walking distance.

Thanks for that, I will stick to my picture books then

I cannot think that moving around in fear is worth any amount of good scenery.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Henzen-du Toit, on the other hand, is well known as an advocate who has defended murders and rapes, says Witz. She joined the Pretoria Bar in 1998, before leaving for the Rebel Bar in North West in 2003. She became a member of the National Forum of Advocates in 2005 and also presided over trials as an assessor during this period. In 2006, she returned to Pretoria and joined the Legal Aid Board. In 2010, she became a unit manager in the South Gauteng High Court in Johannesburg.

A profile of Henzen-du Toit published by Beeld newspaper earlier this month pointed out that she was an expert in criminal justice. She has an Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation.

On Friday, 28 March, Henzen-du Toit fell ill, forcing Judge Thokozile Masipa to adjourn the trial for a week. Without Henzen-duToit, Masipa said the court would not be properly constituted. The assessor was taken to a hospital in Pretoria. Though details about her illness was not made public, The Times said her condition was not life threatening.

-.-.-.-
Assessors are a great help for judges when it comes to presiding over high profile cases, Witz adds. "Although Judge Masipa is more than capable of handling the [Pistorius] case on her own, having two assessors will help. For a judge presiding over a case like [this], it's a lot to take in. The judge may be disturbed during the trial, she may not hear something correctly, or she may have a lapse in concentration. But the assessors can pick up what the judge has missed. They can also be consulted when she is reviewing the facts of the case."

South Africa's system of using assessors to help presiding officers decide on a verdict is more effective than the US's jury system, whose decisions can be subjective, he says. Additionally, assessors are legally trained whereas juries are made up of laypeople without any experience in law. "You wouldn't want a layperson, who is an Afrikaner, making a decision in [Pistorius's] case."

Henry Lerm, an attorney at the Uitenhage Justice Centre, says assessors are needed as magistrates and judges often lack the expertise and technical and scientific knowledge to match the experts who testify in cases before them.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate


PS What you have posted, IB, takes me all familiar. But I also don't know the real connections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_du_Toit

And Pistorius' own teammate Natalie du Toit, who lost her left leg after being hit by a car, swam in the open water marathon in Beijing.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/sep/02/paralympics-oscar-pistorius-unfair-advantage

 

[PrimeSuspect]

RSBM

-.-.-.-
Assessors are a great help for judges when it comes to presiding over high profile cases, Witz adds. "Although Judge Masipa is more than capable of handling the [Pistorius] case on her own, having two assessors will help. For a judge presiding over a case like [this], it's a lot to take in. The judge may be disturbed during the trial, she may not hear something correctly, or she may have a lapse in concentration. But the assessors can pick up what the judge has missed. They can also be consulted when she is reviewing the facts of the case."

South Africa's system of using assessors to help presiding officers decide on a verdict is more effective than the US's jury system, whose decisions can be subjective, he says. Additionally, assessors are legally trained whereas juries are made up of laypeople without any experience in law. "You wouldn't want a layperson, who is an Afrikaner, making a decision in [Pistorius's] case."

Henry Lerm, an attorney at the Uitenhage Justice Centre, says assessors are needed as magistrates and judges often lack the expertise and technical and scientific knowledge to match the experts who testify in cases before them.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate

This makes out like Masipa is a figurehead with little actual power. :thinking: IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

In her time on the bench, Judge Masipa has shown little tolerance for crimes against women, handing down a 252-year sentence last year to a serial rapist and robber and, prior to that, a life sentence to a policeman who shot and killed his wife during an argument about a divorce settlement.

During that trial she said: "No one is above the law. You deserve to go to jail for life because you are not a protector, you are a killer."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/9959652/The-woman-who-will-decide-Pistorius-fate


No one is above the law - except Pistoriuses, it seems.

 

[soozieqtips]

I imagine June and Barry won't rest until their daughter's murderer is actually back behind bars. The thought he could stay out for 4 or 5 months is beyond ridiculous. It's a given that he has to serve more time than his original sentence, so why can't he just go back and await sentencing from jail? There's been so many conflicting stories about whether he's still under house arrest, or whether technically now he's a free man as the original verdict was overturned and he has no new sentence. I mean, what the hell!! Why can't we get a clear answer on this? What exactly is the difficulty?

 

[Colin de France]

.....does anyone think like me that the sentence could completely swing the other way and be extremely harsh .....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

.....does anyone think like me that the sentence could completely swing the other way and be extremely harsh .....

I fear: NOT so, though he deserves a harsh sentence, IMO.

 

[Interested Bystander]

What is the legal advantage of OP wanting the media to know that he is depressed besides trying to get public sympathy? I do not think it would help a bail application, would it? Surely they would want to put him back in jail in a psychiatric ward under close supervision in case he commits suicide.

Respectfully snipped

No legal advantage that I can see but in SA murderers do get bail. I think there was discussion on the forum in 2014 on the very same issue. I am sure I read somewhere it was due to overcrowding in SA jails but there did not seem to be anyone occupying his cell last week. It seems there is no mechanism for what has just happened but I would be surprised if this is the first time the state has won an appeal. I agree with you - he should be back in jail.

 

[Tortoise]

.....does anyone think like me that the sentence could completely swing the other way and be extremely harsh .....

I watched a youtube video analysis of his astrological chart yesterday. It was posted just after the "murder" in 2013 and ended by saying that imprisonment is aspected in his chart for the next 27 years of his life! Given that that was 2 years ago, he has 25 years left.

I don't think that sounds realistic, but here's hoping he will get at least 15 years for his arrogance, lies and lack of genuine remorse.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

RSBM



This makes out like Masipa is a figurehead with little actual power. :thinking: IMO

Witz explains that assessors are usually former magistrates and advocates, and in many cases, academics much like Mazibuko. To be chosen as an assessor, one must first put one's name forward and join a pool of assessors. When a judge decides he or she needs an assessor for a particular court case, the person is chosen from this pool.

Read more: http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com...ors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate#ixzz3tXcdgiKs

BUT: when does the judge decide and for what cases exactly?

 

[JudgeJudi]

There is a constitutional requirement that the punishment imposed, must not be disproportionate to the offense. A number of aggravating factors relating to the crime may be considered. One such factor is the severity of the crime. What severity means, as would be the case with other factors, depends on the offense in question.

If the offense involves violence, the aggravating factors may be

• the degree and extent of the violence used – Masipa and the SCA found excessive force was used
• the nature of any weapon – 9mm semi-automatic handgun together with Black Talon ammunition designed to cause maximum damage
• the brutality and cruelness of the attack – Reeva was totally incapable of defending herself as she was inside a tiny toilet with no means of escape and no place to hide
• the nature and character of the victim, including whether the victim was unarmed, or helpless – Reeva was, according to everyone who knew her, a lovely natured person who cared for others and would do anything for her parents, family and friends. She was a passionate, long-time advocate for women suffering from violence and abuse and was totally defenceless and helpless at the time of her death.

In the category of mitigating factors, factors such as

• age – now aged 29
• the fact that it is the offender’s first offense – found guilty of murder for the first time
• bad health – double amputee who otherwise enjoys good health
• gainful employment - unemployed
• lack of planning – premeditation not proven but SCA found intent to kill
• remorse – he has never, IMO, shown any remorse whatsoever for murdering Reeva. He displayed a callous disregard for her family by not even contacting them to tell them their daughter was dead, nor did he ask his lawyer or siblings to do so on his behalf. He has never acknowledged what he did other than to say “It was a mistake”. For remorse to be a valid consideration, the penitence must be sincere and yet he did not take the court into his confidence. Unless that happened, the genuineness of the contrition alleged to exist has not been proven.
• a guilty plea - he pleaded not guilty
• a belief in religion – while professing to be a Christian, he only ever asked what his God could do for him. His actions and words are the antithesis of what you would expect from a supposedly good Christian.

A sentence must serve the public interest. This incorporates the traditional purposes of punishment (deterrence, rehabilitation, protection, and retribution) into the sentencing considerations.

For instance, aggravating factors may include that

• the offender is dangerous and a long period of incarceration will protect the community – the sheer recklessness of his behaviour on countless occasions prior to murdering Reeva coupled with the fact that he’s now a convicted murderer, has shown that he is a danger to the community.
• the offense is so prevalent that a greater-than-usual punishment is appropriate as a deterrent – the incidence of crime against women in SA is the highest in the world.

The public interest may also result in an aggravated sentence if the victim was defenceless - defenceless doesn't even come close to describing it.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/sentencing-guidelines/southafrica.php#Introduction

 

[Deleted member 102539]

He has to get away from that family. They are a poison to him, with their belief in his innocence. He needs professional help and a place of safety to even begin to come to terms with the huge mess he has created. All the legal people on his side are interested in is his wealth, publicity, and now his wealth has dried up, his uncle's wealth. The way it's going there's sure to be a sorry ending, because he is too scared to admit what he did. Admitting responsibility is not in his nature, and that is why he needs to be removed from the enablers. He needs to prepare himself for the rejection that will follow, but ultimately there may come forgiveness and understanding of how they have enabled him to be what he is.

! Thank you!

 

[soozieqtips]

Respectfully snipped

No legal advantage that I can see but in SA murderers do get bail. I think there was discussion on the forum in 2014 on the very same issue. I am sure I read somewhere it was due to overcrowding in SA jails but there did not seem to be anyone occupying his cell last week. It seems there is no mechanism for what has just happened but I would be surprised if this is the first time the state has won an appeal. I agree with you - he should be back in jail.

BIB - it's apparently very rare that a trial court's verdict gets overturned, but rare doesn't mean 'never' so the state must have provisions in place for this type of scenario. Of course, OP and family will do everything in their power to make sure he doesn't go back, hence the stream of crap coming out already about poor murdering OP not liking prison because it's 'terrible'. We're all going to need sick buckets at this rate.