Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

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The thing you have to realise about the bangs is that it is only the Stipp's who heard the first bangs.

So only the Stipps got the bats "mixed up" with gunshots.

Everyone else heard gunshots and reported them as such.

Unfortunately it is this one quirk of fate that got Pistorius off the premeditated murder charge

However this possibility did not present to the defence until after they got the witness briefs for the first time.
 
They didn't hear 4 shots though. Mrs burger did. She was inside. Her husband, outside heard 5-6 shots. The stipps heard 3 shots on each occasion, the second when they were wide awake and listening. It's hard to argue that Mrs burger definitely heard the shots imo. Sounds more likely she heard the same 3 bangs the stipps did with echoes which is why her husband outside heard 5-6. And of course, Mrs vdms evidence if hearing 4 shots one after the other with no gap is always ignored in favour of Mrs burgers, I'm not sure why.

As for improbability of bat sounds being heard, we haven't really heard much about the way sound was travelling that night. The stipps thought the 2 sets of shots they heard sounded the same.

Just jumping off here.....let's think about the facts..

Valentine's Day.....2 lovers.....1 ends up dead.

CMOP....murdered the beautiful Reeva in a lovers guarrel on Valentines Day.

Moo
 
Just by OP afaik, not counting Mangena's calculations that shot down the double tap theory, unless you're referring to Dixon's sound tests, lol.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/world/africa/pistorius-murder-trial.html

I fired in quick succession,” Mr. Pistorius said. “I discharged my firearm as quickly as I could.”"

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ten-oscar-pistorius-defense/story?id=23066970

"Mangena's testimony appeared to question Pistorius' double tap claim that because "both shots would have hit her around the waist area, where the first shot was," Smith said."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pert-witness-irresponsible-roger-dixon-layman

"He conceded that the test had to be done a second time because of problems with the first test when the pistol jammed, and they were recorded by a music producer with no known experience in recording gunshots."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...f-irresponsible-evidence-to-murder-trial.html

"He forced Mr Dixon to admit that the gun the defence team bought to shoot at a replica door jammed repeatedly so they employed a music producer to splice together recordings of the individual shots being fired.

Mr Dixon also admitted that he had not been present when a second gunshot test was done, and he went on the internet to check what gunshots sounded like before giving evidence.
"

yes maybe just by op.

he also said the shot grouping was not great.

imo he has had a lifetime of embellishing to big up his stories.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/jul/31/oscar-pistorius-should-he-compete

"
"I train harder than other guys, eat better, sleep better and wake up thinking about athletics," he has said. "That's probably why I'm a bit of an exception."

Pistorius is known for telling children that his legs were bitten off by a big shark, or that they fell off because he didn't eat his greens
"
 
It rather depends then on whether you think the screams could have been op or not. It's easy to say witnesses can't be wrong but I find this evidence unclear. The stipps housekeeper told the police she heard a baby crying and then realised it was a female crying. She must have heard the same sounds yet didn't hear a female screaming in terror. Then there are the close neighbours who slept through all this screaming that could be heard 170 m away. Very odd. And then they heard op's high pitched cries which none of the witnesses who could hear female screaming could hear. This is without referring to the vdms who heard female crying at some point that the husband said was op crying. Yes it's odd that the screams ended with the second bangs, but it's also odd that a woman shut in a toilet could have been heard so clearly so far away and that the sounds got louder, as though the person was getting nearer which makes no sense if it was Reeva but does if it was op. Whether op's guilty or not, I think there's very real doubt about this screams evidence. It's a shame no enterprising young reporter (or policeman) has so far got hold of all the phone records as they would most likely clear this up once and for all.

Sorry for the long post. I don't expect you to agree with me as I'm aware that most won't even consider the possibility that the screams were not what they seemed.

Do you have a time reference for the sounds Stipp's housekeeper heard? How do you know what she heard was at the same time the Stipps heard screams?

ETA How do you know Reeva was shut in the toilet during the screaming heard before the shots? How do you know the toilet window wasn't open when she screamed?
 
It is more important that what Berger heard coincides with the ballistics evidence, when she had no knowledge of what the ballistics evidence would be.

Yes.

And you also have corroboration.

The trustworthy Mike N and his wife never hear any extra gunshots at 3.17

So she must have heard the same shots that work Mike N's wife.
 
We can so easily devote pages of discussion to stuff that never happened.

Personally I don't find that a good allocation of my allotted moments on Plant Earth

Wake me up when JJ and Mr Fossil are on deck!
 
yes maybe just by op.

he also said the shot grouping was not great.

imo he has had a lifetime of embellishing to big up his stories.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/jul/31/oscar-pistorius-should-he-compete

"
"I train harder than other guys, eat better, sleep better and wake up thinking about athletics," he has said. "That's probably why I'm a bit of an exception."

Pistorius is known for telling children that his legs were bitten off by a big shark, or that they fell off because he didn't eat his greens
"

bbm
Hahaha, lied as always!! He (and also Samantha) told, he suffers from insomnia and even so persistent, that he in earlier times went to the shooting ranch. "Better sleep than other athlets" or much worse than others? He lies when he opens his mouth, it seems. :gaah:
 
RSBM
He shot through that door knowing Reeva was behind it. She died and that makes him her murderer whatever was running though his mind at that moment.

BIB, this is wrong based on the findings of the SCA.

The SCA found Oscar guilty of the intentional unlawful death of an intruder, NOT Reeva. This of course is not the final outcome of this trial and may just change for a second time pending the outcome of the CC hearing.

The SCA did not find him guilty of the intentional unlawful death of an intruder.

From the SCA Judgment

[4] It is necessary at the outset to clear a technical issue out of the way. The appeal to this court relates solely to count 1 of the indictment, namely, the alleged murder of the deceased. …

[14] It was common cause at his trial that the accused was responsible for the death of the deceased in that he had fatally injured her when he fired four shots with a 9mm pistol through the door of a toilet cubicle in the bathroom adjacent to his bedroom.

[17] … He later changed this to say that he had never intended to shoot at all; that he had not fired at the door on purpose and that he had not wanted to shoot at any intruder coming out of the toilet. …

[32] What was in issue, therefore, was not whether the accused had foreseen that Reeva might be in the cubicle when he fired the fatal shots at the toilet door but whether there was a person behind the door who might possibly be killed by his actions. The accused’s incorrect appreciation as to who was in the cubicle is not determinative of whether he had the requisite criminal intent. Consequently, by confining its assessment of dolus eventualis to whether the accused had foreseen that it was Reeva behind the door, the trial court misdirected itself as to the appropriate legal issue.

[48] In arguing that the State had failed to show that the accused lacked the necessary subjective intention in respect of both elements of dolus eventualis, counsel for the accused emphasised the accused’s physical disabilities, the fact that he had not been wearing his prostheses at the time and that he had thus been particularly vulnerable to any aggression directed at him by an intruder.

[49] In my view this cannot be accepted. On his own version, when he thought there was an intruder in the toilet, the accused armed himself with a heavy calibre firearm loaded with ammunition specifically designed for self-defence, screamed at the intruder to get out of his house, and proceeded forward to the bathroom in order to confront whoever might be there. He is a person well-trained in the use of firearms and was holding his weapon at the ready in order to shoot. He paused at the entrance to the bathroom and when he became aware that there was a person in the toilet cubicle, he fired four shots through the door. And he never offered an acceptable explanation for having done so.

[53] The immediate difficulty that I have with the accused’s reliance upon putative private defence is that when he testified, he stated that he had not intended to shoot the person whom he felt was an intruder.

The only time the Judgment refers to an intruder is when it is referring to what OP thought, what Roux said or what the trial Court found.

Perhaps you can direct me to the part I've missed where the SCA found him guilty of killing an intruder.
 
His 15 days to appeal is up tomorrow I believe.
 
BIB, this is wrong based on the findings of the SCA.

The SCA found Oscar guilty of the intentional unlawful death of an intruder, NOT Reeva. This of course is not the final outcome of this trial and may just change for a second time pending the outcome of the CC hearing.

Can you ever be convicted of murdering someone who is not dead (the intruder)? Hmm
 
The thing you have to realise about the bangs is that it is only the Stipp's who heard the first bangs.

So only the Stipps got the bats "mixed up" with gunshots.

Everyone else heard gunshots and reported them as such.

Unfortunately it is this one quirk of fate that got Pistorius off the premeditated murder charge

However this possibility did not present to the defence until after they got the witness briefs for the first time.

The bangs/shots woke the Stipps. Not one single person heard any screaming before the first sounds.

Screaming was only heard prior to the second sounds.

OP was running up and down the bedroom screaming getting the bat and whatnot in his version after the first sounds. Would your screams be as loud when you're concentrating on searching, putting your legs on, grabbing the bat then hitting the door and gathering your phones as they would be if you were standing still?
 
BIB, this is wrong based on the findings of the SCA.

The SCA found Oscar guilty of the intentional unlawful death of an intruder, NOT Reeva. This of course is not the final outcome of this trial and may just change for a second time pending the outcome of the CC hearing.

He was found guilty of Reeva's murder. There was no intruder.
 
IMO it shows that Berger is a more observant or attentive person than VDM. She said herself she has a natural tendency to count rhythms because of her musical background. If there are two people who heard the same noises and are asked to recount what they heard from memory after the event, the one who picks up on a noticeable pause is by the mere fact of their attentiveness to detail always going to be more accurate than the one who doesn't recall such nuances. So, vigilance might have something to do with it, as well as what they were doing when they heard it, VDM for instance might have had a bit of a shock reaction to the first shot that affected her ability to recollect a difference in detail.

It is more important that what Berger heard coincides with the ballistics evidence, when she had no knowledge of what the ballistics evidence would be.

I'm doubtful that Mrs berger could have heard 1-3 bangs so clearly while none of Mrs vdm, Mr Johnson or Mr and Mrs Stipp heard the same thing. Whereas Mr and Mrs Stipp being woken by the first bangs and missing the first shot does make sense. Mrs vdm could have heard all 4 as she was awake. Mrs Stipp said she was but the timing seems a bit off. And berger and Johnson hearing the same 3 bangs as the Stipp with echoes explains why he heard so many.

And wolmarans who is a highly experienced ballistics expert disputed Mangena's evidence on this point.
 
BIB, There was no evidence put forward that one of the sounds could be anything other than bat or gunshots. There was also no evidence that there were two volleys of gunshots that night. Both sides argued for one set of gunshots, though at different times.

I know, thanks.

So....?
 
The thing you have to realise about the bangs is that it is only the Stipp's who heard the first bangs.

So only the Stipps got the bats "mixed up" with gunshots.

Everyone else heard gunshots and reported them as such.

Unfortunately it is this one quirk of fate that got Pistorius off the premeditated murder charge

However this possibility did not present to the defence until after they got the witness briefs for the first time.

We can't know which bangs Mrs vdm heard. Mr Johnson may well have been woken by the first bangs. Otherwise he was woken by screams which failed the wake the near neighbours who apparently slept through all the very loud screaming.


If Op hadn't said the sequence of events in the bail affidavit, I'd agree they were using the evidence to construct some story. But he gave it before they had the evidence, certainly before they had berger and Johnson evidence, which in the end corroborated his version in terms of times of phone calls and screams for help.
 
It rather depends then on whether you think the screams could have been op or not. It's easy to say witnesses can't be wrong but I find this evidence unclear. The stipps housekeeper told the police she heard a baby crying and then realised it was a female crying. She must have heard the same sounds yet didn't hear a female screaming in terror. Then there are the close neighbours who slept through all this screaming that could be heard 170 m away. Very odd. And then they heard op's high pitched cries which none of the witnesses who could hear female screaming could hear. This is without referring to the vdms who heard female crying at some point that the husband said was op crying. Yes it's odd that the screams ended with the second bangs, but it's also odd that a woman shut in a toilet could have been heard so clearly so far away and that the sounds got louder, as though the person was getting nearer which makes no sense if it was Reeva but does if it was op. Whether op's guilty or not, I think there's very real doubt about this screams evidence. It's a shame no enterprising young reporter (or policeman) has so far got hold of all the phone records as they would most likely clear this up once and for all.

Sorry for the long post. I don't expect you to agree with me as I'm aware that most won't even consider the possibility that the screams were not what they seemed.

How do you know Reeva was in the toilet the whole time she was screaming?

Are you suggesting that OP can now sound like a baby as well as a man and a woman?

Mrs VDM is the only person (of about 8) who heard the male cries and thought they were female. She was also the only person who had been kept awake by a female voice half the night. I don't think the two things are unconnected, do you?

Please drop the suggestion that the rest of us "won't even consider that the screams were not what they seemed". We have all been on this thread since the beginning...we've considered everything.
 
We can't know which bangs Mrs vdm heard. Mr Johnson may well have been woken by the first bangs. Otherwise he was woken by screams which failed the wake the near neighbours who apparently slept through all the very loud screaming.


If Op hadn't said the sequence of events in the bail affidavit, I'd agree they were using the evidence to construct some story. But he gave it before they had the evidence, certainly before they had berger and Johnson evidence, which in the end corroborated his version in terms of times of phone calls and screams for help.

Sorry, but I don't understand your point.

We know for a FACT that there was screaming that woke Johnson (Pistorius claims it was him). So what relevance is it that some of the nearer neighbours did not hear it? Are you saying Johnson imagined them?

Pistorius knew the sequence of events before the bail hearing...he was there, he knew what the neighbours would probably have heard. Screaming, shouts of "help" and gunshots.

"When you all heard a woman screaming in terror, that was me" is the extent of his story.
 
I'm doubtful that Mrs berger could have heard 1-3 bangs so clearly while none of Mrs vdm, Mr Johnson or Mr and Mrs Stipp heard the same thing. Whereas Mr and Mrs Stipp being woken by the first bangs and missing the first shot does make sense. Mrs vdm could have heard all 4 as she was awake. Mrs Stipp said she was but the timing seems a bit off. And berger and Johnson hearing the same 3 bangs as the Stipp with echoes explains why he heard so many.

And wolmarans who is a highly experienced ballistics expert disputed Mangena's evidence on this point.

Actually Mrs Stipp was awake before the first bangs, so she didn't miss a first one. Mrs VDM was in and out of sleep so you don't know precisely when she was awake, because even she doesn't. The fact that she got up and saw people arriving and heard crying means it was the second bangs she heard - given that there was about 10-15 minutes between the two sets of bangs. Berger heard 4 shots and 4 shots were fired, so she wasn't wrong. You are doubting something that is a fact.
 
Can you ever be convicted of murdering someone who is not dead (the intruder)? Hmm

Yes - correct.

This canard keeps coming up and won't die!

The Actus Reus of the offence of murder requires the killing of a person.

However legal procedure in relation to Indictments requires every single element of the Actus Reus to be sufficiently particularised.

This is why the indictment states "... to wit Reeva Steenkamp".

One of the things you learn on the Bar Course is that the state must prove every single element.

So therefore the state much actually introduce evidence of the death of Reeva

So for instance the medical evidence must prove 1. Identity - that she was Reeva 2. That she is in fact deceased and 3. that Reeva died from gunshot wounds

These 3 elements of proof give rise to an inference of unlawful killing - as per the indictment
 
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