Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

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re: removing items from a crime scene. aka 'i am thinking of taking my brother's phone home with me'
1. there were police at the scene at the time the phone was removed from the house [reception moved to another cell tower]. anyone unsure about removing an item could check with the police.
2. if the phone was removed openly in front of police i am sure they would have stopped the perpetrator. so the obvious inference is that it was removed surreptitiously.

3. on this version, we are led to believe carl was unsure about the rules around removing a phone and keeping it for a few days, and also unsure around the rules of wiping information from the phone. do you really believe this?

The way everyone walks around with a phone in their hand these days, I am not sure the police would have taken note. Or just as easy to drop it in your pocket.

The family and Oldwaddage were given special access and the crime scene was not preserved.
 
Listening to the gap which is supposed to be too fast to wield the bat - I think that an athlete such as OP with immense upper body strength would have had no problem hitting the door that fast.

But why should he have done this so fast??? Nobody told him, the witnesses later would perhaps confuse the shots with the wooden bangs.
 
......i don't see it like that..... the police already doubted the intruder version .........i think he told someone the real truth before the police arrived, that way Frank was dealt with and the telephone removed....... a sort of cleansing operation......

Never ever. IMO
 
He may have powerful upper body strength, but not sure he could have suddenly turned into Bruce Lee.

has the interval between the gunshots ever been stated or timed? maybe the gunshots were not quite so rapid. in which case it would be possible to match the repeat speed with the cricket bat wielding.
 
has the interval between the gunshots ever been stated or timed? maybe the gunshots were not quite so rapid. in which case it would be possible to match the repeat speed with the cricket bat wielding.

Just by OP afaik, not counting Mangena's calculations that shot down the double tap theory, unless you're referring to Dixon's sound tests, lol.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/world/africa/pistorius-murder-trial.html

I fired in quick succession,” Mr. Pistorius said. “I discharged my firearm as quickly as I could.”"

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ten-oscar-pistorius-defense/story?id=23066970

"Mangena's testimony appeared to question Pistorius' double tap claim that because "both shots would have hit her around the waist area, where the first shot was," Smith said."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pert-witness-irresponsible-roger-dixon-layman

"He conceded that the test had to be done a second time because of problems with the first test when the pistol jammed, and they were recorded by a music producer with no known experience in recording gunshots."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...f-irresponsible-evidence-to-murder-trial.html

"He forced Mr Dixon to admit that the gun the defence team bought to shoot at a replica door jammed repeatedly so they employed a music producer to splice together recordings of the individual shots being fired.

Mr Dixon also admitted that he had not been present when a second gunshot test was done, and he went on the internet to check what gunshots sounded like before giving evidence.
"
 
She didn't "accept" the intruder version, she just couldn't find reliable evidence that it wasn't true. She also said that he was evasive on the stand, a poor witness and his story had inherent implausibilities.

Having to give him the benefit of the doubt is not the same as "accepting" the story.

She also did not "reject" the ear witnesses...of course she didn't. Roux structured his entire timeline around them!!!!

Fine...so Mrs Stipp said that the loudness and the rapidity were the same. OK....so what?

Physics tells us that the rapid bangs described could not have been a cricket bat smacking against a door. That deepens the mystery, it does not answer it.

Masipa said that the balance was tipped in the favour of OP's version in general so that says to me that legally at least she accepted it. If she had not have done then surely she would have found him guilty of not just CH.

I did not say she rejected witnesses but rejected their testimony. Not all of it just, again in a legal sense, that his version was not disproved by evidence of what has become the argument version.

So what of Stipp's evidence? Together with the other ear witness testimony it makes a contradictory picture which was never going to be of a sufficient standard to support the DD charge. If you review the latter parts of Stipp's evidence you will notice many tiny inconsistencies as she tries to toe the prosecution line. Sounds were similar, then the same then similar again. Often the exact terminology followed from the obvious implication of the question.
 
Masipa said that the balance was tipped in the favour of OP's version in general so that says to me that legally at least she accepted it. If she had not have done then surely she would have found him guilty of not just CH.

I did not say she rejected witnesses but rejected their testimony. Not all of it just, again in a legal sense, that his version was not disproved by evidence of what has become the argument version.

So what of Stipp's evidence? Together with the other ear witness testimony it makes a contradictory picture which was never going to be of a sufficient standard to support the DD charge. If you review the latter parts of Stipp's evidence you will notice many tiny inconsistencies as she tries to toe the prosecution line. Sounds were similar, then the same then similar again. Often the exact terminology followed from the obvious implication of the question.

Well, it depends what you mean by "accepted". Court cases aren't about what's true, but what can be proven true. To her mind (and lots of other legal commentators) the State did not prove their version true to the degree that there couldn't be a reasonably held doubt...even if that doubt was comparatively small. If it's there, she has to give him the benefit of it.

This is an awfully long way from "accepting" that he really believed there was an intruder. I think her comments regarding his honesty and the holes in his story strongly indicates that she didn't really accept it in any meaningful way at all. It's just that nothing could be brought to show uncategorically that he was lying. (To her mind....I personally think there were several things that showed that he was lying).

Again, no....she did not reject the testimony of the ear witnesses. She felt unable to conclude anything substantial from their testimony so felt that it did not assist. She most certainly didn't reject anything....and neither did the defence who used every single thing they heard to build a timeline.

I 100% disagree with you regarding Mrs Stipp. You have always been particularly unfair to her and Burger for no real reason. They are human beings with the same fallibilities as the rest of us, just trying to help by telling the court honestly what they could remember. If you are going to pick your way through every word they uttered with tweezers then of course you will find vague inconsistencies.....you always will with any human account of anything. This is why it is so essential to stand back, look at the big picture and highlight where their stories coincide with other testimony.

What you find when you do this is two entirely separate couples hearing the exact same thing at the same time - a woman screaming and a man shouting in a house where a woman was shot dead by her boyfriend.

I don't care if Mrs Stipp forgot about holding back curtains, or if she included a detail her husband saw in her account, or if Burger refused to indulge Roux in his hypotheticals. These are entirely normal discrepencies from honest sincere witnesses. And try to remember that they were all speaking English as their second language so of course the same terminology will crop up again and again - they don't have access to the same vocabulary they would if it was their first language.

I've said it before, but the most important thing about those ear witnesses is that there were four of them, all telling essentially the same story. Couple this with the fact that both couples took decisive action based on the fact that they heard TWO people that night, not one.....Dr Stipp went to the house worried it was a family murder and children might be involved and the Burger/Johnson's approached the police in the first place because they heard a man AND a woman so were concerned hearing Pistorius's account at the bail hearing.

That is very, very damning however you look at it.
 
I genuinely don't understand the distinction you make, Colin.

You believe he knew she was behind the door and that the intruder story is a lie, yes?

Then he shot her on purpose. It's irrelevant if he thought he was shooting the handle off (or whatever) because shooting at any part of that door was liable to severely hurt or kill whoever was there because of the minute size of the toilet cubicle.

I am also not sure what evidence you expect there to be that would distinguish between him shooting her "on purpose" and shooting at the door with some other purpose in mind. Short of a signed confession from him, what evidence could there be?

He shot through that door knowing Reeva was behind it. She died and that makes him her murderer whatever was running though his mind at that moment.

BIB, this is wrong based on the findings of the SCA.

The SCA found Oscar guilty of the intentional unlawful death of an intruder, NOT Reeva. This of course is not the final outcome of this trial and may just change for a second time pending the outcome of the CC hearing.
 
She said the loudness was the same, but the rapidity? I am not sure about that.

But if you're right, and the rapidity was the same, then this just indicates to me that neither sounds were bat strikes...or at least, not a man using a bat against a door

I also don't recall Masipa saying anything about this being the reason she rejected the ear witness testimony - which, incidentally, she did not "reject" at all.

BIB, There was no evidence put forward that one of the sounds could be anything other than bat or gunshots. There was also no evidence that there were two volleys of gunshots that night. Both sides argued for one set of gunshots, though at different times.
 
has the interval between the gunshots ever been stated or timed? maybe the gunshots were not quite so rapid. in which case it would be possible to match the repeat speed with the cricket bat wielding.

Good point. I was remembering some witness statements that made it sound like at least the last three shots were in fairly rapid succession (plus Roux's various versions of "Doof-Doof..... Doof-Doof" and "Doof, Doof, Doof, Doof.") Do not remember any one recalling a slower rhythm and seems like it would have been mentioned since it IMO would imply a more deliberate or measured firing action.

Would need to do a little more research into the various ear witness testimony to compare, but not sure that would reveal anything definitive. My own logic tells me it would take quite a bit longer to swing a bat doing the kind of damage shown than the interval Oscar would probably have used in firing the last three shots. But it may be useless to speculate beyond what the ear witness testimony revealed.
 
It is the job of the police department to notify next of kin, so they failed again.

RSBM
It was Botha that informed RS's family, I don't think it's necessarily his fault that OP's family and legal team tramped all over the crime scene removing whatever evidence they deemed necessary while Botha was off busy doing his job and had entrusted his fellow officers to do theirs.

IMO however, OP had a moral obligation to inform Barry and June himself. He and Reeva had been dating for three months. Kevin Lerena said, "He told me how much he loved Reeva and how much he still missed her".

If you loved someone, wouldn't one of your first thoughts be to contact the parents? In my world it would.

A moral obligation is a duty or responsibility where someone feels honour-bound to perform because of personal beliefs and values. He has no sense of honour, is totally lacking in kindness and instead shows just how callous he is. I've said previously that at the very least he could have arranged with either Aimee or Carl to telephone them if he couldn't or didn't want to do this.
 
BIB, this is wrong based on the findings of the SCA.

The SCA found Oscar guilty of the intentional unlawful death of an intruder, NOT Reeva. This of course is not the final outcome of this trial and may just change for a second time pending the outcome of the CC hearing.

Remember that phrase in the original indictment-- "to wit, Reeva Steenkamp"?

COUNT 1: MURDER -- READ WITH THE PROVISION OF SECTION 51(1) OF ACT 105 OF 1997
In that upon or about 14 February 2013 and at or near 286 Bushwillow Street, Silverwoods Country Estate, Silver Lakes in the District of Pretoria the accused did unlawfully and intentionally kill a person, to wit, REEVA STEENKAMP, a 29 year old female.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/185695401/Full-document-–-Oscar-Pistorius-indictment

When you have time, you might enjoy reading back through the long history of the case here on WS or on Digital Spy. You might want to start with the above indictment.
 
BIB, There was no evidence put forward that one of the sounds could be anything other than bat or gunshots. There was also no evidence that there were two volleys of gunshots that night. Both sides argued for one set of gunshots, though at different times.

Annette Stipp - Just a selection from her EiC

"As I was in the process of getting up I heard 3 sh… which sounded to me like gunshots. I immediately asked my husband did he hear that and he said, “Yes, it was gunshots”. At that stage I was sort of sitting on the side of my bed and I could see the lights on in the two houses that I could see from my bed window or from the balcony window.

I said first to my husband to maybe not go out as we didn’t know where the shots were coming from and then it was moments after the shots I heard a lady screaming, terrified, terrified screaming.

So – and then just as I went inside we heard 3 more shots.

I could still hear the screaming up until the second set of shots.

After the second set of shots it just became quiet. I heard no more screaming, either male or female.

After the first set of shots there was definitely a female screaming for quite a period, and then almost just before the second set of shots there was a male voice in between that you could definitely hear two different voices, and then the shots and then quiet".

Need I go on?
 
BIB, There was no evidence put forward that one of the sounds could be anything other than bat or gunshots. There was also no evidence that there were two volleys of gunshots that night. Both sides argued for one set of gunshots, though at different times.

I was quite surprised that more wasn't made of the gunshots(likely OP's air rifle) in the bedroom door, though at least iirc the pics of them were entered as evidence.

As for JM rejecting witness testimony, I think she did reject Burger's... because she herself could not seem to wrap her head around the thought that perhaps it was she that was wrong and not the witness who was refusing to accept the DT's argument that she had missed the "first" shots.

Burger and her husband only heard a woman screaming for quite some time shortly after 3am, along with a man yelling help help help, and then the four shots that ended all the screaming/shouting.

They did not hear two sets of "shots" and they didn't hear OP howling at the moon afterwards either iirc, so how do you justify accusing someone of missing something that they were likely too far away to have heard(the bat bangs were never proven to have been able to carry any distance past 60m, assuming the "other" set of "shots" were in fact from the bat and not OP's air rifle as he shot up the bedroom door), let alone rejecting the whole of their testimony?

As the PT had said, if you put all of the witness statements on a graph and see how they line up(their mosaic), then it's obvious that Burger heard the gunshots that killed RS and no bat or air rifle "shots" at all. That doesn't mean she didn't hear the gunshots that killed RS, just she couldn't/didn't hear everything that the closer witnesses were able to.
 
I was quite surprised that more wasn't made of the gunshots(likely OP's air rifle) in the bedroom door, though at least iirc the pics of them were entered as evidence.

As for JM rejecting witness testimony, I think she did reject Burger's... because she herself could not seem to wrap her head around the thought that perhaps it was she that was wrong and not the witness who was refusing to accept the DT's argument that she had missed the "first" shots.

Burger and her husband only heard a woman screaming for quite some time shortly after 3am, along with a man yelling help help help, and then the four shots that ended all the screaming/shouting.

They did not hear two sets of "shots" and they didn't hear OP howling at the moon afterwards either iirc, so how do you justify accusing someone of missing something that they were likely too far away to have heard(the bat bangs were never proven to have been able to carry any distance past 60m, assuming the "other" set of "shots" were in fact from the bat and not OP's air rifle as he shot up the bedroom door), let alone rejecting the whole of their testimony?

As the PT had said, if you put all of the witness statements on a graph and see how they line up(their mosaic), then it's obvious that Burger heard the gunshots that killed RS and no bat or air rifle "shots" at all. That doesn't mean she didn't hear the gunshots that killed RS, just she couldn't/didn't hear everything that the closer witnesses were able to.

They didn't hear 4 shots though. Mrs burger did. She was inside. Her husband, outside heard 5-6 shots. The stipps heard 3 shots on each occasion, the second when they were wide awake and listening. It's hard to argue that Mrs burger definitely heard the shots imo. Sounds more likely she heard the same 3 bangs the stipps did with echoes which is why her husband outside heard 5-6. And of course, Mrs vdms evidence if hearing 4 shots one after the other with no gap is always ignored in favour of Mrs burgers, I'm not sure why.

As for improbability of bat sounds being heard, we haven't really heard much about the way sound was travelling that night. The stipps thought the 2 sets of shots they heard sounded the same.
 
They didn't hear 4 shots though. Mrs burger did. She was inside. Her husband, outside heard 5-6 shots. The stipps heard 3 shots on each occasion, the second when they were wide awake and listening. It's hard to argue that Mrs burger definitely heard the shots imo. Sounds more likely she heard the same 3 bangs the stipps did with echoes which is why her husband outside heard 5-6. And of course, Mrs vdms evidence if hearing 4 shots one after the other with no gap is always ignored in favour of Mrs burgers, I'm not sure why.

As for improbability of bat sounds being heard, we haven't really heard much about the way sound was travelling that night. The stipps thought the 2 sets of shots they heard sounded the same.

What I was basing the probability of her having heard the shots that killed RS was that the screams stopped with them.
 
Good point. I was remembering some witness statements that made it sound like at least the last three shots were in fairly rapid succession (plus Roux's various versions of "Doof-Doof..... Doof-Doof" and "Doof, Doof, Doof, Doof.") Do not remember any one recalling a slower rhythm and seems like it would have been mentioned since it IMO would imply a more deliberate or measured firing action.

Would need to do a little more research into the various ear witness testimony to compare, but not sure that would reveal anything definitive. My own logic tells me it would take quite a bit longer to swing a bat doing the kind of damage shown than the interval Oscar would probably have used in firing the last three shots. But it may be useless to speculate beyond what the ear witness testimony revealed.

re: bold
as the dt were at pains to show the similarity between the two sets of 'bangs', this would have been something to throw back at them.
the fastest possible 'three bat strokes' rhythm = a much more deliberate 3 gunshots rhythm.

more, doof........... doof.....doof.....doof [just a little more time there for swinging the bat]

a double coincidence. not only do bat noises sound similar to gunshots. but also both sets of strikes were done in a similar rhythm [at least to mrs stipp]
 
What I was basing the probability of her having heard the shots that killed RS was that the screams stopped with them.

It rather depends then on whether you think the screams could have been op or not. It's easy to say witnesses can't be wrong but I find this evidence unclear. The stipps housekeeper told the police she heard a baby crying and then realised it was a female crying. She must have heard the same sounds yet didn't hear a female screaming in terror. Then there are the close neighbours who slept through all this screaming that could be heard 170 m away. Very odd. And then they heard op's high pitched cries which none of the witnesses who could hear female screaming could hear. This is without referring to the vdms who heard female crying at some point that the husband said was op crying. Yes it's odd that the screams ended with the second bangs, but it's also odd that a woman shut in a toilet could have been heard so clearly so far away and that the sounds got louder, as though the person was getting nearer which makes no sense if it was Reeva but does if it was op. Whether op's guilty or not, I think there's very real doubt about this screams evidence. It's a shame no enterprising young reporter (or policeman) has so far got hold of all the phone records as they would most likely clear this up once and for all.

Sorry for the long post. I don't expect you to agree with me as I'm aware that most won't even consider the possibility that the screams were not what they seemed.
 
They didn't hear 4 shots though. Mrs burger did. She was inside. Her husband, outside heard 5-6 shots. The stipps heard 3 shots on each occasion, the second when they were wide awake and listening. It's hard to argue that Mrs burger definitely heard the shots imo. Sounds more likely she heard the same 3 bangs the stipps did with echoes which is why her husband outside heard 5-6. And of course, Mrs vdms evidence if hearing 4 shots one after the other with no gap is always ignored in favour of Mrs burgers, I'm not sure why.

As for improbability of bat sounds being heard, we haven't really heard much about the way sound was travelling that night. The stipps thought the 2 sets of shots they heard sounded the same.

IMO it shows that Berger is a more observant or attentive person than VDM. She said herself she has a natural tendency to count rhythms because of her musical background. If there are two people who heard the same noises and are asked to recount what they heard from memory after the event, the one who picks up on a noticeable pause is by the mere fact of their attentiveness to detail always going to be more accurate than the one who doesn't recall such nuances. So, vigilance might have something to do with it, as well as what they were doing when they heard it, VDM for instance might have had a bit of a shock reaction to the first shot that affected her ability to recollect a difference in detail.

It is more important that what Berger heard coincides with the ballistics evidence, when she had no knowledge of what the ballistics evidence would be.
 
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