Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

[Val1]

Thank you Mr Jitty. I did wonder. If you have a moment would you please explain why. I have no legal background, as is obvious, but it seems a very logical step to test the veracity of what seems to be an important lie. Is the PT allowed only to ask questions?

I would think that the DT would have argued(likely successfully, at least for JM) that OP had the right to refuse on the grounds that it could incriminate him should he not be able to replicate the speed at which they claim he had been able to during his time of duress....

 

[Interested Bystander]

@ Tortoise

PS wasn't that the ammo that he had to give back?


ETA https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

"van Staden was present when Oscar’s brother Carl and lawyer Oldwage opened the safe. The items inside were taken out, photographed, and given to Oldwage. The safe contained a box of .38 Special ammunition, some other personal items and medals. There also was another safe downstairs in the kitchen. A locksmith was called out to help them open that safe and they did remove contents from there as well.

I think that was the safe upstairs. I don't recall any photos of the safe downstairs which is a little odd, only that Oldwage and Carl opened it with the help of a locksmith. Nor do I recall any official mention of what was in it although I vaguely recall it was the kitchen one that had the USB stick. Did van Staden take/photograph the contents of that one too or remove the USB stick for examination. I wouldn't like to do CP an injustice even though I think he is a toe-rag.

 

[Val1]

BIB - and wasn't this done before Reeva's family were even informed of her murder?

It is the job of the police department to notify next of kin, so they failed again.

It was Botha that informed RS's family, I don't think it's necessarily his fault that OP's family and legal team tramped all over the crime scene removing whatever evidence they deemed necessary while Botha was off busy doing his job and had entrusted his fellow officers to do theirs. It's obvious imo that someone was swayed by either the money or the fame of OP and his family name, added to the false authority of his legal counsel on site to give them access to things they should not have had.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder
"After phoning the Steenkamps to inform them of their daughter’s tragedy, Botha transported Reeva’s body for a postmortem to determine the cause of death. He instructed his colleagues to take Pistorius to a hospital for blood and urine tests. (Results have not been disclosed.) Then he returned to the crime scene to gather and bag evidence. He found unlicensed ammunition for a .38-caliber revolver and vials containing an unidentified liquid, along with syringes and needles. “We took the laptops, the iPads, the phones, the gun, the cartridges … all bagged, marked, and sent to different forensic departments,” he told me. He even took away the broken-down toilet door after someone offered a police officer $50,000 for a picture of it. “If someone steals the door and sells it, we have no case,” said Botha."

 

[Val1]

I think that was the safe upstairs. I don't recall any photos of the safe downstairs which is a little odd, only that Oldwage and Carl opened it with the help of a locksmith. Nor do I recall any official mention of what was in it although I vaguely recall it was the kitchen one that had the USB stick. Did van Staden take/photograph the contents of that one too or remove the USB stick for examination. I wouldn't like to do CP an injustice even though I think he is a toe-rag.

Yea, that's partly what's so fishy about it all... oh and as far as I'm aware, no pics were ever shown of the downstairs safe or its contents.

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

"One other note… A locksmith was called to the home so that Oscar and his lawyer could access items from his safe downstairs. It was not mentioned what they took from the safe.

It’s concerning to me that up until the time that he was formally arrested on scene, there were a fair amount of friends/family members with access to him. Not to mention that his lawyer was on the scene asap as well."

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

"Regarding the safe that was mentioned in earlier testimony, it was located in one of the wardrobes in the upstairs hallway to the bathroom. Van Staden was present when Oscar’s brother Carl and lawyer Oldwage opened the safe. The items inside were taken out, photographed, and given to Oldwage. The safe contained a box of .38 Special ammunition, some other personal items and medals. There also was another safe downstairs in the kitchen. A locksmith was called out to help them open that safe and they did remove contents from there as well."

 

[Susza]

Deleted cause stupid

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yea, that's partly what's so fishy about it all...

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-9-and-10-crime-scene-photos/

"One other note… A locksmith was called to the home so that Oscar and his lawyer could access items from his safe downstairs. It was not mentioned what they took from the safe.

It’s concerning to me that up until the time that he was formally arrested on scene, there were a fair amount of friends/family members with access to him. Not to mention that his lawyer was on the scene asap as well."

It really is so difficult now to recall everything that happened. I have managed to find what appears tweeting from the court at the Bail Hearing. It is on Facebook and it clearly says Oldwage called a locksmith to open the kitchen safe. In it was a USB stick. Botha goes onto to say that they "the police" still have this stick and it shows that OP has offshore accounts. So I have done CP an injustice and he did not remove the USB stick from OP's house. He removed it from the safe but Botha took possession of it.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/anto...nsoek-hofsaak-19-feb-2013-1/10151307082580994

 

[Interested Bystander]

I would think that the DT would have argued(likely successfully, at least for JM) that OP had the right to refuse on the grounds that it could incriminate him should he not be able to replicate the speed at which they claim he had been able to during his time of duress....

Thank you Val. That makes absolute sense. Maybe he should have conducted a "Roux style" test using some talented cricketer to see just how quickly it could be done LOL! No doubt that wouldn't have been allowed either.:gaah: It really does seem to me that the prosecution have their hands tightly tied with respect to what they can prove or disprove.

 

[mrjitty]

Thank you Mr Jitty. I did wonder. If you have a moment would you please explain why. I have no legal background, as is obvious, but it seems a very logical step to test the veracity of what seems to be an important lie. Is the PT allowed only to ask questions?

As far as I am aware the State can only X the witness on matters related to his EiC or other evidence in the trial.

I do not believe the State can compel the accused to carry out a demonstration.

However if the defence carried out a demonstration (or a video) Nel could have conducted X on the contents of that evidence.

This is most likely why the defence did not introduce such demonstrations, recordings, videos etc.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Lisa (Juror13). If you see this post can we ask if you found out anything about Frank? I listened to your radio broadcast on Blog Radio. You seem to have really enjoyed your SA trip.

 

[mrjitty]

What one can say is there is no reliable evidence that OP shot Reeva by mistake.

That remained in the realms of speculation by the defence - sourced entirely from a poor witness

 

[Tortoise]

What one can say is there is no reliable evidence that OP shot Reeva by mistake.

That remained in the realms of speculation by the defence - sourced entirely from a poor witness

Stander's evidence as to Pistorius' account after the shooting should have been objected to and wiped from the court record. It could have no relevance whatsoever to the crime committed and Masipa used it to determine that he was telling the truth.

 

[Colin de France]

What one can say is there is no reliable evidence that OP shot Reeva by mistake.

That remained in the realms of speculation by the defence - sourced entirely from a poor witness

....likewise there is no evidence to prove he shot her on purpose.......

 

[Tortoise]

....likewise there is no evidence to prove he shot her on purpose.......

ah but there is, the arterial bleeding and the pause after the first shot.

 

[Colin de France]

ah but there is, the arterial bleeding and the pause after the first shot.

...that's not proof he shot her on purpose......nothing can be proved either one way or the other.....it's all speculation....

 

[LemonMousse]

....likewise there is no evidence to prove he shot her on purpose.......

I genuinely don't understand the distinction you make, Colin.

You believe he knew she was behind the door and that the intruder story is a lie, yes?

Then he shot her on purpose. It's irrelevant if he thought he was shooting the handle off (or whatever) because shooting at any part of that door was liable to severely hurt or kill whoever was there because of the minute size of the toilet cubicle.

I am also not sure what evidence you expect there to be that would distinguish between him shooting her "on purpose" and shooting at the door with some other purpose in mind. Short of a signed confession from him, what evidence could there be?

He shot through that door knowing Reeva was behind it. She died and that makes him her murderer whatever was running though his mind at that moment.

 

[Val1]

It really is so difficult now to recall everything that happened. I have managed to find what appears tweeting from the court at the Bail Hearing. It is on Facebook and it clearly says Oldwage called a locksmith to open the kitchen safe. In it was a USB stick. Botha goes onto to say that they "the police" still have this stick and it shows that OP has offshore accounts. So I have done CP an injustice and he did not remove the USB stick from OP's house. He removed it from the safe but Botha took possession of it.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/anto...nsoek-hofsaak-19-feb-2013-1/10151307082580994

BBM ? I read it as the DT still has it...

"11:59 - Nel asks what happens to the memory stick with details of offshore accounts on it. "It's still in their possession," Botha says."
-------
"14:19 - Nel: Did this accused phone police? Botha: No. Nel: Phone security? Botha: No. Nel: Phone [for an] ambulance? Botha: No.

Nel: Were [Pistorius’s defence] keen to get to the memory stick? Botha: Yes, it seemed as though they were. Were looking until they found it."
-------

 

[Val1]

ah but there is, the arterial bleeding and the pause after the first shot.

I think the first witness, Michelle Burger(a lecturer at the University of Pretoria), pretty much proved there was, even if JM ignored her and Mangena's ballistic evidence:

https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/03/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-1/

"On the night of February 13, 2013, she and her husband were home and went to bed between 9pm and 10pm. Both she and her husband were awakened at 3am by the sound of a woman screaming very loudly. Her husband went to the balcony while she stayed sitting up in bed. The woman was screaming for help. And then they heard a man’s voice also scream for help 3 times. Mrs. Burger called her husband back inside and had him call security from her cell phone which was next to their bed. He spoke with two different guards who informed him that they did not cover security in the neighboring community so they hung up. Her husband then went back to the balcony while she still remained in bed and the woman’s screaming was now getting progressively worse. She described it as blood-curdling, like somebody who was in fear for her life. After hearing the woman’s escalated screams they then heard 4 shots. There was a noticeable pause after the first shot and then 3 additional shots rang out. There was some screaming throughout the duration of the shots, but it became quiet after that. They did not hear anything else. The husband came back in from the balcony."

 

[Trotterly]

The most important thing about the bangs...especially the second set...is how loud they were.

Rapid taps from a cricket bat would have no momentum, little transfer of energy and a relatively muted bang.

Gunshots, on the other hand, explode with enormous force and would be heard at much greater distances.

Physics proves that Pistorius is a lying murderer...along with biology and common sense, of course.

(The biology referring to arterial sprays and a non-breathing Reeva)

IIRC Mrs Stipp said that both sets of bangs sounded the same wrt the loudness and the rapidity.

So on her evidence OP must have hit the door rapidly when you take into account the other ear witnesses.

I think this was a major uncertainty in Masipa's decision to reject ear witness testimony.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM ? I read it as the DT still has it...

"11:59 - Nel asks what happens to the memory stick with details of offshore accounts on it. "It's still in their possession," Botha says."
-------
"14:19 - Nel: Did this accused phone police? Botha: No. Nel: Phone security? Botha: No. Nel: Phone [for an] ambulance? Botha: No.

Nel: Were [Pistorius’s defence] keen to get to the memory stick? Botha: Yes, it seemed as though they were. Were looking until they found it."
-------

Ooops. I read that Botha meant it was still in their (mean the police's possession). Sorry about that, I completely misread it and having done so assumed that CP and Oldwage had handed it over.

 

[Tortoise]

...that's not proof he shot her on purpose......nothing can be proved either one way or the other.....it's all speculation....

The arterial bleeding proves Reeva was killed only a few minutes before being carried downstairs - and that Reeva was screaming until the last bullet hit her, which was always the only credible scenario with what the witnesses heard anyway.

The pause shows the bullets were fired and aimed purposely.

The duvet and fan position shows Pistorius version was a lie. The police could not have changed only those elements in the room that would make his version possible. The Stipps saw the light on, otherwise they wouldn't have known which house to look at, so he wasn't in the bathroom tackling an intruder in the dark.

None of this is speculation, it is overwhelming proof. And if you need more, just look at his own testimony - the lies, the tailoring between bail and trial, the tailoring between eic and cross, from one day to the next, his failed PPD, and the massive unlikelihood that a dangerous armed person would hide, that he would scream out to let them know he was there, and that he would approach danger on his stumps, not ask Reeva to call security instead of the police, hide his phone from police...there's just too much.

Juries convict on far less evidence, particularly when there is no good reason for him to lie and when he denied every single charge brought against him when his guilt was obvious, and when he asked a friend to take the blame for a shot he fired, because he will not take responsibility for anything.

You have to weigh up the reasonableness of what he asks you to believe - and there is none. He was not living in fear of intruders. His defence was won by creating a false timeline and a judge who did not check the records - we have checked it out and know that it is a lie.