Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #68 *Appeal Verdict*

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This is quite interesting. I see Pistorius' chances of succeeding at the CC getting better and better. One of the judges that sits on the CC is Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng. He was appointed by Zuma who as we all know is owned by Pistorius and his family. So we know there is influence here. Not just that, this is probably just one of many judges that have been appointed by Zuma that can be influenced.

Now in terms of Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng, many critics say that he lacks gender sensitivity and his rulings tend to go against women. Another point for Pistorius.

Here are some of his rulings

In the 2001 case of S v Mathebe, the accused was convicted of assault with the intention to do grievous bodily harm. He had tied his girlfriend onto his car and dragged her on a gravel road at a high speed for 50 meters then later on denied her access to medical treatment till the following day. Here, Justice Mogoeng reduced the accused`s sentence from 2 years imprisonment to a fine of R 4000

The 2005 case of S v Moipolai involved the rape of an 8 months pregnant woman by her long-term boyfriend and father of her two other children. Justice Mogoeng reduced a sentence of 10 years imprisonment to 5 years and he stated here that the rape was not as “serious” as it would have been had a stranger committed it.
 
I think Oscar himself is posting here. Seriously. I see why y'all did the list. But in order to be fair. Maybe they felt like people were jumping on them. So maybe it's their way of not being pushed out due to differences of opinion.

But I honestly don't think they really feel happy as the gloat posts makes it seem like. They are just expressing their freedom of speech in a distasteful way to get their point across that they will not be bullied due to difference of opinions.

But if they would truly like to explain their position and why; Then I'm here or send a pm.

I hates no one. But I am curious about the why they feel they need express things this way. Jmo.
 
.....the one thing that did stand out from yesterdays court appearance for someone who according to the general opinion shot Reeva on purpose his attitude seems to be in complete contradiction to that theory........he is either one good actor or he's telling the truth or there's another version we don't yet know about.....i can't see a murderer facing many years in prison acting the way he did, it's suicidal and seems to conflict with the charge against him ......
 
.....the one thing that did stand out from yesterdays court appearance for someone who according to the general opinion shot Reeva on purpose his attitude seems to be in complete contradiction to that theory........he is either one good actor or he's telling the truth or there's another version we don't yet know about.....i can't see a murderer facing many years in prison acting the way he did, it's suicidal ......

You know, maybe he was on meds.. tranquilizers and such.
 
Plenty of guys get jealous. Now just imagine when he gets jealous. He probably assumes that if he had legs that women would bow down to him. Which isn't necessarily true.

So he uses his disability as his reasoning for anything he does. Jmo.
 
Plenty of guys get jealous. Now just imagine when he gets jealous. He probably assumes that if he had legs that women would bow down to him. Which isn't necessarily true.

So he uses his disability as his reasoning for anything he does. Jmo.

Presumably this is the way the CC appeal will go. That the SCA did not take proper account of his disability and how it could have affected his fear of an intruder.
 
Oscar only shows up when he knows that things are going to go his way. This is why he didn't show up for the high court hearing.

Jmo. He knew that he was going to lose. But in all honesty; Why is it going to take 5 months for a higher court to hear his appeal.

But I think I know why. I truly feel his house arrest is being considered time that he is serving. So by the time he exhaust all of his appeals and gets sentenced. He would already have enough time served to be eligible for parole after maybe spending another 2 years in a actual jail.

But I truly hope that his house arrest isn't calculated in a future sentence, since he isn't actually serving time in jail.
 
Presumably this is the way the CC appeal will go. That the SCA did not take proper account of his disability and how it could have affected his fear of an intruder.

Don't twist my words. Because Masipa didn't take many things in account.

Example. You have no legs. But you didn't tell your lover whom was supposedly in bed to pass you your legs while you get the gun for the criminal that is locked in the bathroom.
 
Thank God for some sense among the hysteria.

As you said earlier Nel has just won a landmark ruling in the SCA albeit with the help of James Grant, but the credit is mostly his as lead advocate of the prosecution team.

Nel had Oscar nailed from the beginning despite Roux preparing Oscar perfectly. People with a highly empathic disposition are often targeted by sociopaths and Masipa and assessor Janet Henzen Du Toit got the full works at the beginning of the trial. Roux would have known their vulnerabilities and Oscar was prepared for it perfectly and as an out and out sociopath, the perfect man to do it. Dr Jane & Tim McGregor, here in the UK, did some great work on this field of psychology and called it "the empathy trap". Masipa and Du Toit were lambs to the slaughter and this was exacerbated by the snake oil salesman Roux and his machiavellian ministrations.

Against this background Nel enters the fray and in one day of cross examination, like Jesus anger at the moneychangers in the temple, he tells him he is a hypocrite, a liar, and rotten to the core and throws his whole charade of an apology and his version(s) in to the gutter where it belonged.

From the moment he stood and adjusted his robe, all of us watching with our hearts in our mouth he didn't waste one second getting down to business in what was a relentless cross-examination:

Nel: "You killed a person. You killed Reeva Steenkamp, that's what you did. You shot and killed her. "Say 'Yes' - say 'I killed Reeva Steenkamp'."

Pistorius: "I have a responsibility to Reeva and myself to tell the truth."

Nel: "You will not hide things from the court."

Pistorius: "I'm human, I have faults, I have sins. I'm a Christian. The Lord came down to this world for people who have sinned."

Nel: "As a Christian you will not lie."

Pistorius: "The discharge was accidental. I believed there was someone in the toilet coming out to attack me. I never intended to shoot anyone ... I went to the bathroom and felt in danger. I didn't have much time to think. I just discharged my firearm. I didn't intend to shoot someone. I shot out of fear. I didn't shoot at someone. I didn't intend to kill anyone...I didn't have time to think about what I was doing. I had finger on my trigger. I didn't intend to shoot anyone. I fired before I had a moment to comprehend what was happening."

Nel: "Was the only way out for you to shoot an intruder?"

Pistorius: "I didn't have time to think or not think about shooting an intruder. My life was in danger and I was worried what could happen to Reeva. People had been tied up on the estate before. Before thinking I fired four shots. When I realised the scale of what was happening I stopped firing. It was an accident, the way I discharged the firearm. I didn't intend to shoot."

Nel had hounded him all day, switching from one topic to another, leading us to cry out- Just get to the bloody point! All the time he was softening him up. He knew Oscar was a sociopath and forced him into lie after lie and brought together what seemed like a bewildering mess of threads into a scalpel-sharp accusation at the end of the day. Was that the only way out for you to shoot an intruder? This was a massively important piece of testimony for Pistorius and a critical component of the trial. Here's why.

Pistorius was convicted of murder because it was shown that he intended to kill - period. It doesn't matter who - just that he intended to kill someone and that the force he used was disproportionately excessive given the circumstances.

Remember, in order to make out the charge of murder against Pistorius, it had to be shown that he had the requisite intent to kill and followed through on that intent. Pistorius wanted to avoid a murder conviction and look to settle on a lesser charge of culpable homicide, which meant killing someone by accident.

So despite firing four shots through a locked bathroom door at 3am, Pistorius repeatedly declared that he "didn't intend to shoot anyone" and the discharge was an "accident". These statements were designed to establish that Pistorius lacked the intent needed to make out a conviction of murder.

Parts of Pistorius' testimony shows that he was well prepared by Roux. He hit on the key legal points in ordinary English.

However, the issue of plausibility remained. As Nel pointed out, "was the only way out for you to shoot the intruder?". For example, he could have grabbed Reeva and fled. He could have taken up a defensive position and called for the intruder to get out. He could have hidden in a cupboard or barricaded himself in another room. He did none of these things. He went full on assault mode and hunted down the intruder and he fired a pre-loaded, high calibre, zombie-stopping weapon, not once, but four times, switching position and aim throughout.

For all of Roux's charm, eloquence, sharp legal brain and command of English, he whined, pleaded, exhorted, pontificated for weeks in that courtroom but it was the sometimes awkward, incogent, pitbull Nel who brutally led Pistorius and his family on a merry dance that day and asked him a seemingly inconsequential question that barely registered a comment. But it was as a rapier to the heart of Pistorius' defence. There's a saying in Latin: Fides et Ratio... Faith and Reason. I've always had faith in Nell and his reasoning has been tested in the crucible of the SCA. For me he is a hero. I care not for his seemingly poor command of English, or his awkward deference when before a judge and I join you as one of his many apologists. Fides et ratio people!! As Mr Jitty rightly said, he has to do his time eventually. :)

Haha!

Well this is all right in my wheelhouse. Fantastic that you are here to discuss it!

First I think TV creates an expectation that doesn't fit with actual court procedure.

Most of the time stuff is low key. More like a corporate meeting with people just talking normally. There is lots done on the papers which are not simply read out by counsel.

I was surprised Nel was even present for a bail application. And very senior counsel are often very low key with the judge - chatty even - not launching in to huge speeches which would be more for the camera or the jury.

Re the Trial, I also completely agree.

Nel as an elite counsel has his main skill in witness examination which was key in this case.

However the state is often relatively weak in areas like legal argumentation, resourcing and the quality of the police work.

This is simply a reflection of the budgets and quality of people the state has.

You can see on appeal - where the law is crucial - that the State upped its game by bringing in legal expertise (i.e. prof grant). This is quite common. When i worked at a big factory firm - we and other firms around town were frequently brought in by the Solicitor General for huge and tough cases. This is in part because the State simply does not have large elite legal teams that can go to work on this stuff.

As far as the trial conduct is concerned I 100% agree.

Nel's only job was to show OP was lying - because OPs "defence" rested on the mistake.

The fact that Masipa is a clown does not detract from the fact that Nel did his job expertly.

Of course in hindsight more could have been done with the technical evidence - but SAPs clearly is not 100% on their game with that.
 
Haha!

Well this is all right in my wheelhouse. Fantastic that you are here to discuss it!

First I think TV creates an expectation that doesn't fit with actual court procedure.

Most of the time stuff is low key. More like a corporate meeting with people just talking normally. There is lots done on the papers which are not simply read out by counsel.

I was surprised Nel was even present for a bail application. And very senior counsel are often very low key with the judge - chatty even - not launching in to huge speeches which would be more for the camera or the jury.

Re the Trial, I also completely agree.

Nel as an elite counsel has his main skill in witness examination which was key in this case.

However the state is often relatively weak in areas like legal argumentation, resourcing and the quality of the police work.

This is simply a reflection of the budgets and quality of people the state has.

You can see on appeal - where the law is crucial - that the State upped its game by bringing in legal expertise (i.e. prof grant). This is quite common. When i worked at a big factory firm - we and other firms around town were frequently brought in by the Solicitor General for huge and tough cases. This is in part because the State simply does not have large elite legal teams that can go to work on this stuff.

As far as the trial conduct is concerned I 100% agree.

Nel's only job was to show OP was lying - because OPs "defence" rested on the mistake.

The fact that Masipa is a clown does not detract from the fact that Nel did his job expertly.

Of course in hindsight more could have been done with the technical evidence - but SAPs clearly is not 100% on their game with that.

Nel is not battling OP. Nel is battling judges that seem to have their minds made up already.

It seems like the questions from these judges in every OP case will basically define what the judges have already decided.

We already knew how Leach felt. So Nel knew what verdict to expect early on.

Masipa was tricky. But her questions during the case told us that she was being truly lenient towards OP.

And in this last hearing. The judge made it sound like he was going to be as lenient as could be. Roux was suggesting harsher home confinement until he realized that the judge didn't even want to go that deep. Jmo

The sole judge decisions suck in SA.

The panels of judges are way better.
 
Don't twist my words. Because Masipa didn't take many things in account.

Example. You have no legs. But you didn't tell your lover whom was supposedly in bed to pass you your legs while you get the gun for the criminal that is locked in the bathroom.

Whose twisting your words? I was asking if you think that Roux will pursue the line that OP's disability was not properly taken into account when dismissing his claimed fear.

So do you think that will happen?
 
Whose twisting your words? I was asking if you think that Roux will pursue the line that OP's disability was not properly taken into account when dismissing his claimed fear.

So do you think that will happen?

No worries. I was simply stating that his murder motive was jealousy due to his disability. But you somewhat switched it to seem like I was stating that he had a defense argument due to his disability.

Presumably this is the way the CC appeal will go. That the SCA did not take proper account of his disability and how it could have affected his fear of an intruder.


But anyways. This comment was just made to clarify that OP killed Reeva because he was insecure of his disability. And it wasn't meant to state that he may have acted in self defense due to his disability.

Especially since he took the time to carry Reeva down the stairs. But he didn't take the time time to nudge her while he was grabbing for the gun and heading to the bathroom before firing shots in the door ; While screaming : GET OUT OF MY HOUSE.

IMO. HE WAS TELLING REEVA TO GET OUT THE BATHROOM BEFORE FIRING THE SHOTS.

JMO
 
Haha!

Well this is all right in my wheelhouse. Fantastic that you are here to discuss it!

First I think TV creates an expectation that doesn't fit with actual court procedure.

Most of the time stuff is low key. More like a corporate meeting with people just talking normally. There is lots done on the papers which are not simply read out by counsel.

I was surprised Nel was even present for a bail application. And very senior counsel are often very low key with the judge - chatty even - not launching in to huge speeches which would be more for the camera or the jury.

Re the Trial, I also completely agree.

Nel as an elite counsel has his main skill in witness examination which was key in this case.

However the state is often relatively weak in areas like legal argumentation, resourcing and the quality of the police work.

This is simply a reflection of the budgets and quality of people the state has.

You can see on appeal - where the law is crucial - that the State upped its game by bringing in legal expertise (i.e. prof grant). This is quite common. When i worked at a big factory firm - we and other firms around town were frequently brought in by the Solicitor General for huge and tough cases. This is in part because the State simply does not have large elite legal teams that can go to work on this stuff.

As far as the trial conduct is concerned I 100% agree.

Nel's only job was to show OP was lying - because OPs "defence" rested on the mistake.

The fact that Masipa is a clown does not detract from the fact that Nel did his job expertly.

Of course in hindsight more could have been done with the technical evidence - but SAPs clearly is not 100% on their game with that.

...regarding Nel.....we were expecting a judicial bulldog instead we got a French poodle playing up to the cameras.....my opinion of course.....imagine, we are now at the point where Pistorius can smirk in court.....
 
No worries. I was simply stating that his murder motive was jealousy due to his disability. But you somewhat switched it to seem like I was stating that he had a defense argument due to his disability.




But anyways. This comment was just made to clarify that OP killed Reeva because he was insecure of his disability. And it wasn't meant to state that he may have acted in self defense due to his disability.

Especially since he took the time to carry Reeva down the stairs. But he didn't take the time time to nudge her while he was grabbing for the gun and heading to the bathroom before firing shots in the door.

I understand that, but what do you think the defence might do at a CC appeal, do you think they might argue that his disability was not properly considered when the SCA rejected he was in fear for his life?
 
I understand that, but what do you think the defence might do at a CC appeal, do you think they might argue that his disability was not properly considered when the SCA rejected he was in fear for his life?


I think it was. Did not Masipa say that there are many disabled people who don't resort to shooting people, indicating he could not rely on that excuse. Not in those words but quite frankly I cannot be bothered to listen/watch any more reruns to find it. Maybe it is in her judgement - not sure.
 
I understand that, but what do you think the defence might do at a CC appeal, do you think they might argue that his disability was not properly considered when the SCA rejected he was in fear for his life?

Why on earth would having a disability make him fear for his life when otherwise he wouldn't?

His disability affects his legs not his brain.

It is perfectly understandable if a disabled person has to take action that an able bodied wouldn't if, for example, they are trapped and cannot escape before an intruder comes into their bedroom.

That's if there really is an intruder and they haven't just pumped their unarmed wife with four bullets for walking into a room, as she has done every day for years. Under those circumstances they'd have a case to answer.

Pistorius was not trapped.....if anything, he was the trapper. He did not have a rationally held belief that his life was in danger even though he was rational enough to avoid wanting to hurt himself. He heard a noise and from then on was fixated on neutralising whoever it was that made it. If you believe this is the way most disabled people in that boat would behave you are absolutely kidding yourself.

I have to wonder why you are not accepting the SCA decision in the way that you demanded the rest of us should....before you heard what it was, of course.
 
And sometimes quite disgusting. The ignore button achieves nothing if people respond to their posts. The best way is to never respond to their posts. Let them see their goading will get them nowhere on this victim-friendly forum.

As Bessie likes to say, "Roll and scroll", and this is the perfect solution.

Ignore button helps prevent perpetuating discussions we have had to endure x1000

Since i have several people on ignore, i get far less tempted to react to the same old baiting :)

I agree its unfortunate that the ignore function doesn't cover quoted content. Many other sites have this.
 
I'm a dedicated "lurker" following the case very closely and find the whole unfolding detail incomprehensible. A small point, but irritating, is the media reporting that OP "agreed" to have an electrononic tag fitted. Yes, he would have to agree, but with all his Bail dreams fulfilled one would think this was a given. Why did Nel agree to Bail? The Judge then went on to give more freedom than both parties had agreed on! Hoping time will tell that Nel has a plan that we can't see at this time and OP will not be smirking for long! IMO
 
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